US Politics: We Don’t Need No Stinking Lawyers

[James Arryn]

2 hours ago, Wade1865 said:

TormundsWoman -- amusingly (and somewhat alarmingly), I had a passing thought on what seemed like creeping centrism, yesterday re abortion rights coupled with my uncertain feelings on the student loans dilemma. Seemingly (even to me), I was inching leftward; though, more likely, I'm just avoiding a position given my sympathies for women and youth who find themselves facing what I'd consider profound life challenges. If I'm being honest, though, outside of those two issues (and any yet-unexplored sociopolitical beliefs), I'm far right wing.

Imo, you are pretty far to the right, not unlikely to be someone who’d normally consider yourself a libertarian or more likely objectivist but probably with specific enough objections to either to actually sign up. I say this courteously, as you are always courteous and respectful, that I think you are an absolutely end-justifies-means person who fwiw seems to be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to virtually any end, and again imo it would not take too much to nudge you to fascism (the political ideology, not the Hitlerian version with all the Jewish stuff) though to be clear I don’t think you are one at present. 
 

My main guide for these observations, aside from you directly ~ defending anything so long as the person is pursuing self-interest, is your frequent, possibly conscious use of false equivalence…or in the words of the nice guy you admire, ‘on many sides’. That’s a very big, possibly the biggest rhetorical tool used by fascists in their rise in all three countries they historically occupied and even more so by those attempting to reinvigorate the ideology*. That alone does not a fascist make, of course, and that’s one of the reasons I see you as more potentially open to it rather than actually supporting it, if you get me. It’s very hard to say this without making it sound like a pejorative, but I  sincerely mean it from a purely political POV. I think pretty much the same of most ends-justifies-means thinkers. Other factors include your pro-authoritarian bent and the fact that you have a very top-down view of political action, ie you’ll notice effects, but your concentration for most political activity is the selfish intent of the architects. 
 

edit: to demonstrate what I mean about pejoratives, I’m probably a species of lazy communist. 

* https://prospect.org/politics/false-equivalence-destruction-of-american-democracy/

[Wade1865]

1 hour ago, Martell Spy said:

None of this would be necessary if we simply allowed student loan debtors the right everyone else has: to go bankrupt.

Martell Spy -- my dilemma between sympathy and indifference; and responsibility vs irresponsibility; feels most resolvable by way of your point. I like how it does allow a legitimate way out, while enforcing the effects of consequence. Seems to be an obvious and reasonable course of action. I'll talk to Uncle Joe.

[Martell Spy]

19 minutes ago, Fez said:

Not necessarily. Couples with $200k-$249k combined income (or less, potentially) might easily be able to pay off their student loans, but be in situations where it doesn't make financial to do so. E.g., they have investment opportunities where the annual return is greater than the interest rate on the student loans. In which case, the smart move is to pay the minimum possible amount on the loans.

That's an extreme outlier. And possibly an argument for Biden to have set the income requirements lower. If Biden had set the limit at 150 K you'd be quoting that number. Biden had to set a limit somewhere or we'd be dealing with something like Warren or Sanders would have done.

The largest amount of loans in default are really only around $10 k. These are people where 10 K is a lot of money to them, they see that balance and panic and try to run from the debt.

There's also people with balance so large that they realize they'll never pay it in their lifetime. I'm in that category. This jubilee doesn't change that either. The changes to monthly payments are a lot more helpful to me personally.

[DMC]

Sean Hannity making the reasoned, empathic case for radical socialism...

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

3 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

PPP loans were designed to be forgivable.  Like, that was actually built into the statute and at the time was meant to keep businesses propped up.  I mean, we can question the policy especially with 20/20 hindsight, and examine who got them, but this is not a good comparison.  

Hah!  And, in fact, part of the problem is that higher education has been subsidized by federal money which has caused its cost to inflate faster than inflation.  

That's even 'worse', it's just a straight up handout -- it is a great comparison because it's an example of a huge government handout, on a much larger scale than this just announced loan forgiveness.  The argument I was addressing was one of personal responsibility.  It's bullshit to imply that student debtors are grifting the government when it's standing operating procedure for everyone else.  They are being forgiven because entire college [finance] system is fucked and has been for 20+ years.

And yes, the subsidizing [of] loans has been a major cause of tuition Inflation-- but it's time the US joins the modern world and stops this incredibly outdated and overpriced university finance system.  

Eta: student loans were designed to be able to be paid back, I'd assume within the student's lifetime.  For many borrowers that has not been true, and many are carrying not just their own loans but their children's loans as well.  

If that's not an indictment of the failure of the intent of the loan system, I don't know what is.  I don't see how the PPP loans being designed to be a handout some how involve less personal responsibility on the part of the loan recipients, which was why I cited them in the first place.  Anyone can take free cash.  At least student debtors have tried to pay it back when possible, many owe double or triple the loan principle.  That's a systemic failure and not an issue of personal responsibility.

[DMC]

15 hours ago, Fez said:

The legal authority that the administration was able to find was the HEROES Act from 2003, which was intended to allow the Dept. of Education to ease loan terms for members of military who serve in Afghanistan. But it was written extremely broadly and didn't have a sunset provision, so here we are.

While the legal memo the administration publicized with the announcement did emphasize the HEROES Act, it is inaccurate to say that's where the Education Department's statutory authority is coming from.  It comes from a provision in the 1965 Higher Education Act.

Anyway, I do agree it's likely, even probable, that this court will strike down the action.  Indeed, their decision in West Virginia v EPA seems tailor-made to do just that - even though usually it would seem very difficult for anyone to have standing.

[Larry of the Lawn]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

The pragmatic thing to do is actually fix the problem, not to put breast implants on a corpse. 

Rad now do that with healthcare.  

[Mindwalker]

4 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Rad now do that with healthcare.  

You know, I think that's part of the reason for  means testing (and not forgiving more): The unwashed masses could start thinking, what about another general program, like healthcare? IOW, pure socialism. The horror!

[TormundsWoman]

21 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

That's even 'worse', it's just a straight up handout -- it is a great comparison because it's an example of a huge government handout, on a much larger scale than this just announced loan forgiveness. The argument I was addressing was one of personal responsibility. 

The portion of the PPP loan that covered the 12 weeks payroll which in my business co. case was 78% of the loan, I will let my employees know that Larry from online said they need to take personal responsibility, and therefore need to pay it back to the government itself! NO HANDOUTS!

The portion of keeping my business afloat which was the rest, I will think hard, but like Wade,said if they already told me I can use it to pay my utilities and overhead expenses, and basically not shut down by business and not pay it back well..I'm keeping it. Thanks for all the handout.

But on the plus side, I paid my entire student loan within 5 years of getting a job! Never crossed my mind not to either. So there's that.

Boy, as it turns out I seem to be more like Wade! Who knew?!

Joke aside Larry, I believe the issue is student loans are not catastrophic emergency that hit out of nowhere like the pandemic shut down. These student loans are something that you know of and you plan for or you should plan for, before you accept them.

There is a family behind most of the students and these families should know exactly what it entails. Some plan and put aside supposedly, some count on scholarships and grants only to find there's none for them and some look at the student loans. My Estimated Family Contribution with last two year's taxes and any assets I might have for example is 25K per year. for the rest there is a loan waiting for me and my child. Eyes wide open, taking a risk and hope it pays out when they get out of college. If we get any grants, good if not, it is what it is. Would I expect the loan to be forgiven? No. I would expect them to put a cap because the annual tuition increase is ridiculous.

[Larry of the Lawn]

9 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

The portion of the PPP loan that covered the 12 weeks payroll which in my business co. case was 78% of the loan, I will let my employees know that Larry from online said they need to take personal responsibility, and therefore need to pay it back to the government itself! NO HANDOUTS!

The portion of keeping my business afloat which was the rest, I will think hard, but like Wade,said if they already told me I can use it to pay my utilities and overhead expenses, and basically not shut down by business and not pay it back well..I'm keeping it. Thanks for all the handout.

But on the plus side, I paid my entire student loan within 5 years of getting a job! Never crossed my mind not to either. So there's that.

Boy, as it turns out I seem to be more like Wade! Who knew?!

Joke aside Larry, I believe the issue is student loans are not catastrophic emergency that hit out of nowhere like the pandemic shut down. These student loans are something that you know of and you plan for or you should plan for, before you accept them.

There is a family behind most of the students and these families should know exactly what it entails. Some plan and put aside supposedly, some count on scholarships and grants only to find there's none for them and some look at the student loans. My Estimated Family Contribution with last two year's taxes and any assets I might have for example is 25K per year. for the rest there is a loan waiting for me and my child. Eyes wide open, taking a risk and hope it pays out when they get out of college. If we get any grants, good if not, it is what it is. Would I expect the loan to be forgiven? No. I would expect them to put a cap because the annual tuition increase is ridiculous.

Is this a parody account?  Bravo!

Eta: in case you were serious, read what I was responding to.  

Good for you you paid your loans of in 5 years.  You should be so proud.  Maybe try to imagine why there are so many fucking people who haven't.  

[James Arryn]

Anyone else coming to the somewhat surprising conclusion that Biden is turning out to be more action than words? I mean, relative to the norm. 

[Zorral]

Having families with even SOME MONEY make all the difference in people's pov.  Like the reichlican politico  who said if people are having a rough time just go get some money from your parents like he did when having trouble paying a few hundred thousand for something-or-other.

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

38 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Anyone else coming to the somewhat surprising conclusion that Biden is turning out to be more action than words? I mean, relative to the norm. 

Midterm season, time to throw some red meat to the plebs. 

 

[Zorral]

This is now how it is. Any reichlican who loses any election, even to another reichlican, howls the election is stolen,  a fraud and that s/he won, and it belongs to him/her.

Failed Trump-loving candidate declares 'I am the Congresswoman' despite clear defeat: "It Is MINE!"

 

[TormundsWoman]

52 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Eta: in case you were serious, read what I was responding to.  

Good for you you paid your loans of in 5 years.  You should be so proud.  Maybe try to imagine why there are so many fucking people who haven't.  

I know why. They cannot afford the costs (for a multitude of reasons), costs that are becoming obscene for 20+ yrs. According to you Larry that’s the reason why it’s forgiven too, because they system is fucked for 20+ years unless my reading comprehension fails me. I’d quote you but I don’t know how to multiple quote.

I’m not proud for paying my debt. I was explaining that it never crossed my mind not to. I wasn’t grifting anyone, wasn’t planing to and there IS personal responsibility. Obscene costs can however make that really hard. 

The solution however in my opinion is NOT to forgive loans. Like Tywin said it’s tits on a breastplate. It doesn’t do a lot long term. Whatever happens when prices increase again next year and a new generation gets into the loan system? Make a cap or better make them lower the fucking prices. There is an article that I had at some point booked that explains how state universities (all) sneakily raised the tuition in the last quarter of the century and them shamelessly. Explained a lot more too but I’m too tired to type on this small thing.
 

Suffice to say that University of Michigan for example now has the same tuition sticker price as an Ivy League while having 5-7 times the size of the undergrad student body and not the same quality of education or benefits. Sure it’s the best but It’s still a State university for crying out loud. Even if you go at the low end of the spectrum UIUC has $34k a year tuition only. Its galling to think Florida state universities have some of the lowest tuition fee for out of state and I’d never consider my kid going there if it kills me. 
 

anywho, I see you feel incredibly righteous about this so we’ll just agree to disagree.

 

[Martell Spy]

Quote

The solution however in my opinion is NOT to forgive loans. Like Tywin said it’s tits on a breastplate.

 

And your solution and Tywin's is to turn to the U.S. Congress. The same body notorious for not passing things, most especially economically progressive things. And the same ones that made student loans not dischargeable in bankruptcy. They were key in creating the problem. And they chose purposely not to address the problem. 

Biden, too didn't want to act at first. And he said Congress should address this. It's a great excuse not to act at all to kick it to these jokers in the Senate. Do you really trust Sinema to do what's right? More like she will give a thumbs down.

[Zorral]

Call It What It Is: Corruption

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/morning-memo/bill-barr-olc-memo-mueller-report

 

Quote

 

Yielding to a FOIA lawsuit by CREW, the Justice Department has released a key memo that gave Trump Attorney General Bill Barr Barr everything he needed to whitewash the Mueller Report.

It’s difficult to capture what a compromised and disturbing document this is without going back in time and reliving those fraught days in the spring of 2019 when Barr bamboozled the press corp and shamelessly dragged DOJ into the business of protecting the incumbent president.

Let’s put it this way: This memo by Steven Engel, the head of the Office of Legal Counsel, and Ed O’Callaghan, the principal associate deputy attorney general, never gets written if the answer it gave was anything other than exculpatory of Trump. The conclusion was baked in from the beginning, and the poor quality of the legal analysis is just one tell that the fix was in.

But let me yield the floor to the experts on this:

The NYT’s Charlie Savage has an excellent thread on Twitter expressing the appropriate level of skepticism about the memo’s convoluted legal reasoning, misleading recitation of some of the facts, and overall weakness.

I should note that a lot of the news coverage of the memo treats it with a lot less skepticism. Even the NYT article that Savage co-authored reads like the memo is a somber legal analysis made in good faith – until about the eighth paragraph, when it finally lowers the boom:

Outside specialists in white-collar law greeted the disclosure of the memo with some skepticism, describing its tone as essentially that of a defense lawyer in a trial rather than an even-handed weighing of the law and evidence.

The most worked-up commentator was understandably Andrew Weissmann, a former DOJ lawyer on Mueller’s team:

Neal Katyal gets it:

Randall Eliason weighs in too:

 

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

25 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

I know why. They cannot afford the costs (for a multitude of reasons), costs that are becoming obscene for 20+ yrs. According to you Larry that’s the reason why it’s forgiven too, because they system is fucked for 20+ years unless my reading comprehension fails me. I’d quote you but I don’t know how to multiple quote.

I’m not proud for paying my debt. I was explaining that it never crossed my mind not to. I wasn’t grifting anyone, wasn’t planing to and there IS personal responsibility. Obscene costs can however make that really hard. 

The solution however in my opinion is NOT to forgive loans. Like Tywin said it’s tits on a breastplate. It doesn’t do a lot long term. Whatever happens when prices increase again next year and a new generation gets into the loan system? Make a cap or better make them lower the fucking prices. There is an article that I had at some point booked that explains how state universities (all) sneakily raised the tuition in the last quarter of the century and them shamelessly. Explained a lot more too but I’m too tired to type on this small thing.
 

Suffice to say that University of Michigan for example now has the same tuition sticker price as an Ivy League while having 5-7 times the size of the undergrad student body and not the same quality of education or benefits. Sure it’s the best but It’s still a State university for crying out loud. Even if you go at the low end of the spectrum UIUC has $34k a year tuition only. Its galling to think Florida state universities have some of the lowest tuition fee for out of state and I’d never consider my kid going there if it kills me. 
 

anywho, I see you feel incredibly righteous about this so we’ll just agree to disagree.

 

Yes the one being righteous here is the one who is recognizing a structural pricing problem, not the one preaching personal responsibility regardless of the situation.  

[Zorral]

You don't want student loans, you shouldn't go to college, even though one can't get a job without having gone to college, since the student loan industry grift has made that be the case -- in THEIR favor.

She doesn't want to die in childbirth?  She shouldn't have gotten pregnant -- even though she didn't want sex with that man, and was raped.  That's what it sounds like to me anyway, who has a front row seat in academia to the student loan grift that so enriches the universities, so they can built sports stadiums and acquire ever more real estate.  Nobody ever tells the kids who it works.  But even if they know, what are they supposed to do, and I mean now, not in some distant future when the reichlicans like Scott Hannity fix it for us all, by the only thing that makes sense: slave labor to pay off the loans.  You have noticed how he's howling about this because it might allow his young staffers, who HE tells us, "don't make $125,000 a year (and um again, how much does he make? who lives on their work?).

By those who complain ye shall know them!

https://www.rawstory.com/sean-hannity-2657941541/

Quote

 

Hannity told his listeners that he paid his way through college but didn't graduate before noting that several of his young staffers would benefit from student loan forgiveness, calling it "radical socialism."

“The people that likely will benefit the most are middle class. You know, think about it. You get out of college, you’re not making a lot of money," he stated. "We have a lot of young people that work on my TV show, they're not making a 125 grand," he said. "They're now eligible to get in some cases up to $20,000 and in other cases $10,000. This is New Green Deal radical socialism."

 

 

[Jace, Extat]

I have never been okay with the government absorbing the final costs of these wealth redistribution schemes laughably called 'college'. How so many young people got mindswiped into defending the institutions that have beggared then blows me away.