Better Metal Metaphors for the Baratheon Brothers

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cersei too though, she's constantly working and expecting her revolving SC to work as well. And her regime is kind of similar to Roberts, mostly peaceful and a strong desire to reshape the dynasty and it's rule

Thing is though Cersei's council still has things to do. Unlike Robert's, who's greatest task was finding more money, Cersei's council needs to finish the war. I think a better comparison would be Cersei's Council vs Robert's in the hypothetical Dothraki Invasion scenario. I mean the kingdom has been at peace for over a decade, there wasn't really much to do, at least not with Robert in charge. Cersei has a desire to make some reforms which Robert doesn't.

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Besides if the sc is type useless then the most useless job there is is master of laws only because I have no idea what they do.

I thought they were nominally in charge of the City Watch. Robert most likely isn't helping Renly there, him and a few other people seemed to want to get rid of Slynt but Robert said no...But yeah we really need more detailed descriptions on what each of the small council positions entails because it seems like Master of Coin is just an excuse to embezzle the Kingdom's funds. No one but Varys and Petyr actually seem to be doing any work on the SC, and what work Varys and Petyr are doing is detrimental to the kingdom.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He attacks Storm's End specifically to lure Renly there so he can kill him, because he needs his army. I wouldn't count death in battle as murder.

I can admit that it's ambiguous as written, but for me the role of prophecy is important for Stannis' actions. He believes in Melisandre's powers of foresight, and she tells him that Renly's death is fated. We know that Mel takes a lot of liberty in her interpretation of her visions, and we also know that she played an active role in Renly's murder, just as she did with Courtney Penrose. But Stannis does not know it. 

“Maester Cressen was your faithful servant. She slew him, as she killed Ser Cortnay Penrose and your brother Renly.”

“Now you sound a fool,” the king complained. “She saw Renly’s end in the flames, yes, but she had no more part in it than I did. The priestess was with me. Your Devan would tell you so. Ask him, if you doubt me. She would have spared Renly if she could. It was Melisandre who urged me to meet with him, and give him one last chance to amend his treason. And it was Melisandre who told me to send for you when Ser Axell wished to give you to R’hllor.” DAVOS IV, ASOS

I fully concede that motivated reasoning would compel Stannis to buy into this explanation, and that some part of him may realize Mel's (and his own) culpability with Renly's death. But this is quite different from simply resolving that he will have to kill his brother. GRRM grants Stannis this special supernatural circumstance, in part to lend his character a moral ambiguity that will later be explored and tested as the narrative progresses.

As for the question of metals, I dunno, iron is fine by me. I'm not really interested in attributions, unless they are in-story symbols planted by the author that could serve as clues to where the story may go (and even there, I tend to speculate sparingly).

[Hugorfonics]

32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Cersei has a desire to make some reforms which Robert doesn't.

Yea exactly 

33 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought they were nominally in charge of the City Watch.

That kinda sounds right 

34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

it seems like Master of Coin is just an excuse to embezzle the Kingdom's funds. No one but Varys and Petyr actually seem to be doing any work on the SC, and what work Varys and Petyr are doing is detrimental to the kingdom.

Lol. Yea pretty much. Although while Varys and Petyr are certainly detrimental to the regime they're also kinda necessary.

Although it's probable that Petyr embezzled he also brought Robert and Joffrey unseen amounts of money, we see Cerseis govt going flat broke as soon as Petyr leaves. Same thing with the Spider, for example if it weren't for him the antler men would have almost certainly taken the city for Stannis 

[Denam_Pavel]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I didn't read it that way, because I always got the sense that Stannis intended to murder his brother from the very start, whereas Renly was not hostile to Stannis at all until Stannis attacked him, after which he was fine with Stannis falling in battle. It is true that he makes no effort to spare Stannis, but I wouldn't say he just orders his death. I always thought it was more them accepting that Stannis would never be taken alive. Right before Renly says not to desecrate his body, Randyl Tarly asks what they should do if Stannis yields, to which Mathis Rowan laughs. So I always saw it as more them accepting Stannis will never be taken alive. Where as with Stannis, Renly's death was counted upon long in advance. He attacks Storm's End specifically to lure Renly there so he can kill him, because he needs his army. I wouldn't count death in battle as murder.

Renly admitted that he didn't have the best claim, he was going for the throne because he thought he was the most able candidate (and I agree with him). But as soon as he takes the throne I think he could very easily make his claim out to be the legitimate one after all by using the bastard story and saying Stannis was disqualified due to religious reasons, as I said before.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point because I think Renly would be one of the best rulers out of all the candidates. I am most likely biased, as my name and profile picture hopefully convey, though I have tried to be objective with my arguments.

Regardless of our differing opinions on Stannis and Renly, you clearly have a great deal of insight into Stannis' character, so I would love to hear what metal you think would fit him better.

Regardless of whether they were the best ruler, Renly declared himself King first. This inheritely involved Stannis' death. Whatever Stannis was waiting on while at Dragonstone all this time, Renly declared himself Stannis' enemy, not the other way around. Saying that Stannis intended to murder Renly from the start is a baseless assumption. Renly and Loras were still hoping to set Robert up with Margaery as a way to power when Stannis was planning for his war against the Lannisters.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Regardless of whether they were the best ruler, Renly declared himself King first. This inheritely involved Stannis' death. Whatever Stannis was waiting on while at Dragonstone all this time, Renly declared himself Stannis' enemy, not the other way around.

Renly is only declaring himself Stannis' enemy if he knows Stannis has claimed the crown. Since Stannis told no one until months after Robert's death, Renly had no way of knowing this when he crowned himself, so I don't think he was declaring himself Stannis' enemy. In addition, it is Stannis who opens hostilities by attacking Renly's castle, not the other way round. Renly made no move against Stannis and counted him among allies, a forlorn hope, but one that shows he clearly did not consider Stannis an enemy until he attacked him. And I disagree that Renly being king necessarily involves Stannis' death, though that is the most likely option. Stannis could be sent to the wall. Or he could have accepted Renly's offer of being Lord of Storm's End. It would not happen due to Stannis' personality, but the option was there.

1 hour ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Saying that Stannis intended to murder Renly from the start is a baseless assumption.

If by start you mean as soon as Renly crowned himself then no it isn't, otherwise Master Cressen would not be going on about fratricide all the time. If you are referring to Stannis intending to kill Renly as soon as he flees to Dragonstone then yes, but that wasn't what I was saying.

Quote

"Melisandre has gazed into the flames, and seen him dead."

Cressen was horrorstruck. "Fratricide . . . my lord, this is evil, unthinkable . . . please, listen to me."

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I can admit that it's ambiguous as written, but for me the role of prophecy is important for Stannis' actions. He believes in Melisandre's powers of foresight, and she tells him that Renly's death is fated. We know that Mel takes a lot of liberty in her interpretation of her visions, and we also know that she played an active role in Renly's murder, just as she did with Courtney Penrose. But Stannis does not know it. 

For me personally I can't quite see Stannis sailing to Storm's End based on prophecy alone, at that point he only had Melisandre's poison immunity as a demonstration of her magic to go on.

However if Stannis does go based on prophecy, I agree with all of this, up until the point where Melisandre needs Stannis to 'do the deed' so to speak, at which point I can't see how he didn't realise or at least strongly suspect what was going on at the time, and not just after he thinks about it.

Stannis does do parley with Renly but he must have known before hand that his offer would never be accepted, he offers Renly nothing he doesn't have already and Renly's counter offer to Stannis was much more generous, especially when one takes into account the imbalance of military power. That quote from Stannis confuses me a little bit, if Melisandre believed that Renly was fated to die (and was going to make sure it happened) why was she so insistent on a parley? If Renly accepted the offer then he wouldn't die and her vision would be wrong so she would be discredited. Unless, of course, she has to see her target before she can kill them.

Stannis isn't stupid so I'm assuming he could connect the dots as soon as his offer was rejected. If Renly isn't going to kneel, how else is Stannis going to get his army?

And as soon as Stannis sails to Storm's End he puts in motion the chain of events that Melisandre predicts will cause Renly's death, so he must have accepted that he would be leading to his brother's death, even if he didn't think he would be involved in any way.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol. Yea pretty much. Although while Varys and Petyr are certainly detrimental to the regime they're also kinda necessary.

Although it's probable that Petyr embezzled he also brought Robert and Joffrey unseen amounts of money, we see Cerseis govt going flat broke as soon as Petyr leaves. Same thing with the Spider, for example if it weren't for him the antler men would have almost certainly taken the city for Stannis 

It's so odd because they are required for the regime to function but are also destroying said regime. It's like a slowly progressing terminal illness but you also need to have the illness to be alive in the first place.

Petyr seems to be the only man with accounting knowledge in Westeros. Tyrion mentions his figures don't look quite right but some how no one else has caught on.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

For me personally I can't quite see Stannis sailing to Storm's End based on prophecy alone, at that point he only had Melisandre's poison immunity as a demonstration of her magic to go on.

However if Stannis does go based on prophecy, I agree with all of this, up until the point where Melisandre needs Stannis to 'do the deed' so to speak, at which point I can't see how he didn't realise or at least strongly suspect what was going on at the time, and not just after he thinks about it.

Stannis does do parley with Renly but he must have known before hand that his offer would never be accepted, he offers Renly nothing he doesn't have already and Renly's counter offer to Stannis was much more generous, especially when one takes into account the imbalance of military power. That quote from Stannis confuses me a little bit, if Melisandre believed that Renly was fated to die (and was going to make sure it happened) why was she so insistent on a parley? If Renly accepted the offer then he wouldn't die and her vision would be wrong so she would be discredited. Unless, of course, she has to see her target before she can kill them.

Stannis isn't stupid so I'm assuming he could connect the dots as soon as his offer was rejected. If Renly isn't going to kneel, how else is Stannis going to get his army?

And as soon as Stannis sails to Storm's End he puts in motion the chain of events that Melisandre predicts will cause Renly's death, so he must have accepted that he would be leading to his brother's death, even if he didn't think he would be involved in any way.

We can only go on what GRRM decides to feed us, and there's a lot that we don't know about Stannis' time spent with Melisandre. But we do know he believes in her power. He said as much to Davos, to explain why a non-believer like him would embrace her strange red god. Why and whether that's reasonable from our perspectives is irrelevant; what's relevant is that he has faith in her powers and her counsel. 

We also know that Melisandre has her own ambitions, and can be very strategic in how she uses the trappings of her power to advocate for things she believes to be true. Her suggestion to meet with Renly was GRRM's clever way of showing Mel's guile. She likely did need to see him or know his location before she could unleash the shadow upon him. But that's her business; not something she need share with Stannis.

The notion of fixed versus changeable fate is not explored in depth, but it seems to me that Melisandre thinks certain fates can be avoided by "correct" actions (which of course are determined by her, conveniently). So she might have told Stannis that a parley might allow Renly to avoid the fate she saw in her flames, but that otherwise he was doomed to die. Doomed how? With fate, it could be anything. Mutiny in his own party, trapped under his horse in battle, even a stray bolt of lightning (fitting for their locale). There are plenty of ways to justify ones desires as fate without resorting to cold premeditation of murder.

I don't think that Stannis was told about Renly being killed by a shadow, and I don't think he knows what came from his coupling with Melisandre. Mel tells Stannis what she thinks he needs to know, and while Stannis is sharp when he wants to be, he certainly has his blind spots, particularly when it relates to his own desires coloring his quest for justice. No matter how vehemently he tells himself otherwise, he is human, full of desires, biases, and contradictions. Readers are free to judge his rationalizations as insufficient, and certainly people who espouse bias toward Renly will judge him even harsher, but I think the evidence shows his understanding of Renly's death to be something markedly different from cold premeditation--though it's certainly not "innocent."

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I don't think that Stannis was told about Renly being killed by a shadow, and I don't think he knows what came from his coupling with Melisandre. Mel tells Stannis what she thinks he needs to know, and while Stannis is sharp when he wants to be, he certainly has his blind spots, particularly when it relates to his own desires coloring his quest for justice. No matter how vehemently he tells himself otherwise, he is human, full of desires, biases, and contradictions. Readers are free to judge his rationalizations as insufficient, and certainly people who espouse bias toward Renly will judge him even harsher, but I think the evidence shows his understanding of Renly's death to be something markedly different from cold premeditation--though it's certainly not "innocent."

I agree that Stannis wasn't planning on murdering Renly himself or using his essence to do it via shadow or having him assassinated, I wasn't trying to say that I thought Melisandre straight up told him exactly what would happen and he just went along with it. I can't recall if Renly's death and Stannis gaining his army are part of the same chain of events or two different visions, but if they are then he must have known that his actions would lead to Renly's death, even if he wasn't directly involved, if he was acting based on Melisandre's prophecy - he was choosing the 'death path'. Stannis was knowingly starting a chain of events that could only result in his brother's death, because Renly's death was conditional upon him sailing to Storm's End. So he is not guilty of premediated murder, but possibly the next best thing, as his involvement is integral to Renly dying. I believe that he may not have known exactly what role he was playing until it was actually happening, perhaps assuming he would have passive influence rather than an active role in causing his brother's death. But Melisandre probably implied it was necessary for him to sleep with her or do something that would allow her to harness his essence somehow, or I don't think he'd do it. Stannis doesn't seem the type to commit adultery without good cause. He must have realised his role at some point, even if not the specifics, because after Renly dies he is in denial about the whole thing.

For the prophecy to work, Renly has to die in a manner that leaves his forces intact, which narrows down the list of scenarios Melisandre could offer to Stannis. So him dying in battle probably wasn't suggested.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Stannis was knowingly starting a chain of events that could only result in his brother's death, because Renly's death was conditional upon him sailing to Storm's End. So he is not guilty of premeditated murder, but possibly the next best thing, as his involvement is integral to Renly dying.

That is true about the army; Selyse brings up the prospect of gaining Renly's army were he to die in the ACoK Prologue--and this was likely after Mel had told the king and queen that she saw Renly's death in the flames. That knowledge certainly strengthens his culpability in the eyes of readers.

I'm not sure if that does implicate Stannis further, at least from Stannis' standpoint. First, he could believe that Renly would die, somehow, if Renly pursues this false claim to the throne. So, even if Stannis were to hold off on making his own claim, Renly would die, because all of the pretenders are doomed to die (certainly Mel said as much later on, illustrated with leeches). So in meeting with Renly and providing him one last chance to stop his folly, Stannis would be taking the one course that might possibly save his brother from his fate, though the choice would be up to Renly.

He certainly would not regard sitting still to be a real option, however. I don't deny that his talk of honor sometimes masks his own personal grievances and ambitions, but the fact remains that he has the only legitimate claim to the throne, and he sincerely (and correctly) believes the others to be pretenders. To let those pretenders usurp the throne would be a grave injustice upon the land. There is no way he doesn't stake a claim, according to his own sincerely held moral code.

Obviously, we readers know that Stannis' meeting with Renly was integral to allowing Mel to murder him. And his literal shadow did the killing--and in his dreams he even kind of saw it. So clearly he is not innocent in the way that he thinks he is. But he's also not guilty in the way that we might think he is. Again, the reason provided by Mel to convince him to lend his seed need not be clearly tied to Renly. We don't know what she said, but it could have been vague talk about increasing her power for the coming battle. Or maybe she couched it as a protection spell for her king. Or she may have talked about casting a long shadow as she did with Jon, and Stannis took it more metaphorically, like granting her the power to manifest a great destiny for him. It certainly did not need to be tied to Renly's fate.

Also, while Stannis is not the shameless philanderer that Robert was, this could be another example of the "correct and best course" being conveniently tied to the fulfillment of his desires. He was convinced by this powerful woman that sex with her would increase her powers, thus increasing her value as an asset for him. Given the clear contempt he has for his wife, this decision may not have been so hard for him to accept. And maybe he returned for seconds and thirds, just in case.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's so odd because they are required for the regime to function but are also destroying said regime. It's like a slowly progressing terminal illness but you also need to have the illness to be alive in the first place.

Petyr seems to be the only man with accounting knowledge in Westeros. Tyrion mentions his figures don't look quite right but some how no one else has caught on.

I mean when looking at Robert's council it does seem like nobody else but Littlefinger was looking at the books, and has long has he provided the money nobody would really care I would think.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

I mean when looking at Robert's council it does seem like nobody else but Littlefinger was looking at the books, and has long has he provided the money nobody would really care I would think.

Yes, I have no doubt he was making loads of money (at least short term) so people have no reason to be suspicious, but I just find it odd that only Tyrion seems to think something's up. Did no one else check the books until that moment, or did others just not have sufficient accounting knowledge? The debt situation never quite made sense to me. I don't have a link but someone did the maths and it turns out Robert would have to have a tourney the cost of the hands tourney every few months for years to just empty Aerys' treasury, let alone get 6 million dragons in debt. I think the massive debt kind of conflicts with Littlefinger's money making ability, unless he's embezzling the funds.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, I have no doubt he was making loads of money (at least short term) so people have no reason to be suspicious, but I just find it odd that only Tyrion seems to think something's up. Did no one else check the books until that moment, or did others just not have sufficient accounting knowledge? The debt situation never quite made sense to me. I don't have a link but someone did the maths and it turns out Robert would have to have a tourney the cost of the hands tourney every few months for years to just empty Aerys' treasury, let alone get 6 million dragons in debt. I think the massive debt kind of conflicts with Littlefinger's money making ability, unless he's embezzling the funds.

Oh Littlefinger is embezzling the funds alrigth, that for me is not in question.

But when you look at the council, well Robert hates accounting and all that stuff so he would never look at the books, Varys as no real power and would not overstep is lane, Pycelle is really useless is only a lannister crony, Renly seem like he does not really look to deep at those sort of things and has a good relation with Littlefinger and well Barristan is a great knigth but that is all.

That leaves only Stannis and Jon Arryn, but the first is isolated nobody likes him and has idea like banning prostitution that the rest of the council find absurd, he does seem to be on to something when he goes after Slynt and I believe it would have lead to Littlefinger but since Robert dissmissed it early on he most likely went on sulking and not going deeper. And for Jon, well he is the one that gived Littlefinger is position at court, he most likely sees him as a ally and "his" we dont know much about there relation but I would assume that Jon had total confidence in him for accounting, especially if Littlefinger fixed things when he arrived, and dint start embezzling strait away.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Vaegon the dragonless said:

especially if Littlefinger fixed things when he arrived, and dint start embezzling strait away.

I can imagine he works well enough at the start so no one is suspicious, and then later when no one suspects anything he starts embezzling in full.

I also believe it is stated that he invests his wealth in property and the like, which makes it harder for anyone to discover his crimes as the money isn't just left lying around somewhere.

The issue I have is that no one is even a little bit suspicious or even curious about his financial genius enough to even glance at the books. Stannis seems to not like him because he bribes the city watch, I can't recall if he suspects embezzlement or not.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue I have is that no one is even a little bit suspicious or even curious about his financial genius enough to even glance at the books. Stannis seems to not like him because he bribes the city watch, I can't recall if he suspects embezzlement or not.

Money and the likes of it are seen has beneath most of the high lords, to they're great regret (looking at you house Westerling and Corbray) so I dont think it is something that most lords will be curious, as long has the money is there it is enougth for them.

I dont think Stannis suspected anything, but if Slynt was fired and questionned it would most likely lead to Littlefinger, and question would start being asked and fingers being pointed.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Money and the likes of it are seen has beneath most of the high lords, to they're great regret (looking at you house Westerling and Corbray) so I dont think it is something that most lords will be curious, as long has the money is there it is enougth for them.

I agree that they're probably snobby about it, though I still think some would worry about the debt, Ned seems very concerned for example, though I don't think it's common knowledge. But they have to pay at least some of the debt back regularly to get access to more loans, so it sounds like they could be taking out loans to repay older loans.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree that they're probably snobby about it, though I still think some would worry about the debt, Ned seems very concerned for example, though I don't think it's common knowledge. But they have to pay at least some of the debt back regularly to get access to more loans, so it sounds like they could be taking out loans to repay older loans.

Most of the debt is owed to the kings in-laws and could be realisticaly forgived, and I think Eddard is shocked because he does not know the style of the court, the hands tourney seems to be something Robert does for every occasion, adding to that the wardrobe of Cersei and the kids and a bunch of other stuff it can get pretty high pretty quick. 

Yeah they're is a good chance they take debt to pay other debts, but again for Robert has long as the money keeps coming it is not a problem for him.

[Jon Fossoway]

I dnn't think this deserves much in-case-study. It's a metaphor for the three, comparing them to one another, not to the rest of the characters in world: Stannis is indeed the most rigid of the three; Robert, at his prime, is the strongest; Renly is the most florid (thus, the most charismatic, even more than Robert, possibly). Noye worked at Storm's End and had a good look at the three brothers.

[Arthur Peres]

Don't agree... I think that Donel was closer to that reality.

Robert was true Steal, no doubt the better of the brothers, he had the charisma of Renly but even stronger as Renly himself points out, he was also a better warrior and commander than Stannis, he outmatched and outshined his brothers at their own zone. Robert wasn't easy to control either as Ned felt it, he was just lazy and looked for a easy way out instead of stand his grounds on a political issue, he was cleary depressed after losing the "love of his life" and being pushed to marry a monster with boobs. Melissandre controls Stannis better than anyone controlled Robert for example.

Both Renly and Stannis were worse human beings than Robert, they were more than willing to commit kinslaying, they were more concern with their petty intrigues than to save their brother king, Stannis sinks even lower when you consider that he could have prevented the whole war of the five kings by just warning Robert or staying in the court and later own he killed Renly and tried to burn Edric...

Renly wasn't worth all that much. Cooper fits him nice, any of his brothers, in his position would have won the war in a single swoop by taking King's Landing, but instead he decided to play tourney and let the realm burn, while he starved the city that would be his future capital. He gathers the biggest army in Westeros history and decides to do nothing with it. He was also a very false person, he presented himself as belevonet but in privite he showed his true collors, like his thoughs on Brienne and the mockery of Shireen let it clear.

Stannis is the closest one that Donel came to being wrong. Mostly because Stannis is showing that he can bend pretty well, and he does every time the law points to him. He is great a judging others but he is incapable of taking responsability for his deeds, he bends the morals and laws better than anyone else to justify himself. Kinslaying? well I wasn't awake... even though I took part in a weird ritual and have memories of killing my brother in the dream. "I would never hurt the boy, he is my nephew" than proceeds to try to burn him alive... 

[frenin]

11 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

and we also know that she played an active role in Renly's murder, just as she did with Courtney Penrose. But Stannis does not know it. 

If Stannis didn't know that he and Mel had a hand in killing Renly, something that it's hard to swallow given that Stannis is a non believer and Cressen Selyse's plot as fratricide and he's willing to go along with it, he certainly plays an active role in killing Penrose and should be able to put 2 and 2 together, hell Davos who's not present can,  by then.

 

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That kinda sounds right 

They are not tho, it's Viserys/Otto who put Daemon on the City Watch, not whatever Maester of Laws they had, Janos Slynt answers directly to Robert, not Renly.

You're not wrong, Renly's position in council is the most useless there is for the readers because Martin has fiven it absolutely zero development whatsoever.

 

 

11 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

This inheritely involved Stannis' death.

No, it didn't.

 

11 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Saying that Stannis intended to murder Renly from the start is a baseless assumption.

 

Quote

“There is another way.” Lady Selyse moved closer. “Look out your windows, my lord. There is the sign you have waited for, blazoned on the sky. Red, it is, the red of flame, red for the fiery heart of the true god. It is his banner—and yours! See how it unfurls across the heavens like a dragon’s hot breath, and you the Lord of Dragonstone. It means your time has come, Your Grace. Nothing is more certain. You are meant to sail from this desolate rock as Aegon the Conqueror once sailed, to sweep all before you as he did. Only say the word, and embrace the power of the Lord of Light.” “How many swords will the Lord of Light put into my hand?” Stannis demanded again. “All you need,” his wife promised. “The swords of Storm’s End and Highgarden for a start, and all their lords bannermen.” “Davos would tell you different,” Stannis said. “Those swords are sworn to Renly. They love my charming young brother, as they once loved Robert … and as they have never loved me.” “Yes,” she answered, “but if Renly should die …” Stannis looked at his lady with narrowed eyes, until Cressen could not hold his tongue. “It is not to be thought. Your Grace, whatever follies Renly has committed—” “Follies? I call them treasons.” Stannis turned back to his wife. “My brother is young and strong, and he has a vast host around him, and these rainbow knights of his.” “Melisandre has gazed into the flames, and seen him dead.” Cressen was horrorstruck. “Fratricide … my lord, this is evil, unthinkable … please, listen to me.” Lady Selyse gave him a measured look. “And what will you tell him, maester? How he might win half a kingdom if he goes to the Starks on his knees and sells our daughter to Lysa Arryn?” “I have heard your counsel, Cressen,” Lord Stannis said. “Now I will hear hers. You are dismissed.”

 

Quote

“You are frank, Lady Stark. Very well, I’ll answer you frankly. To take the city, I need the power of these southron lords I see across the field. My brother has them. I must take them from him.” “Men give their allegiance where they will, my lord. These lords swore fealty to Robert and House Baratheon. If you and your brother were to put aside your quarrel—” “I have no quarrel with Renly, should he prove dutiful. I am his elder, and his king. I want only what is mine by rights. Renly owes me loyalty and obedience. I mean to have it. From him, and from these other lords.”

 

Stannis needed Renly's armies to take the throne, since he himself believed it impossible that Renly to surrender them up to him, the only logical answer is that he would kill Renly to get them.  Stannis himself is only swayed to Selyse's idea once he's told Renly's going to kick the bucket soon enough.

Stannis says as much to Renly anyway, surrender your army to me, swear fealty or i'll detroy you.

Saying that it's baseless assumption is ignoring the text.

 

 

7 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I'm not sure if that does implicate Stannis further, at least from Stannis' standpoint. First, he could believe that Renly would die, somehow, if Renly pursues this false claim to the throne.

Eh quite the opposite, he cames to believe that Renly will smash him at the Blackwater so i don't  know whether he thought Renly was going to die eventually but he came to believe he'd do.

 

 

About the metal thing, given that Noye last saw the brothers 15 years ago when they were boys. Though Martin does a little of self insert by Martin there imo, Noye comment  about how Robert is not really a good king is kinda odd for someone who has been in a penal colony for nearly two decades. If even Ned thought things were running smoothly till he saw th evidence... All Noye could tell is that there has been 14 years of peace and plenty.