The Tournament - Too violent, just the right violent, or not enough?

[C.T. Phipps]

To be fair, there's probably months-long time skip to the swearing of allegiance.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

47 minutes ago, Unloyal Bannermen said:

This is very odd however, and could have been at least mentioned in some inbetween dialougue at a council meeting. 

I thought for a moment that it could have been a low-level knight in service of House Stark, but as far as I know, they aren't allowed to wear the sigils of the big houses.

[butterweedstrover]

On 8/25/2022 at 7:26 PM, Ran said:

 

Again, I think this whole thing needs to be seen as a hyper-reality depiction of the violence of the tournament, to match the suggestion that this is a decadent, "anything goes" sort of time. It doesn't make sense within the canon, but it matches the intended themes.

But I don't get this. In times of decadence you would want to focus on the superficiality of the knights (like was done in Renly's war camp). Extravagant displays of strength, showboating, overzealous crowd pleasing, and theatrical flourishes that exaggerated the skill involved in pulling off a simple maneuver. 

  Here the knights are shown to be hardened killers bursting at the seams from lack of war. If the message is that people require warfare to sooth their urges then that is a very stupid message. 

[C.T. Phipps]

4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

  Here the knights are shown to be hardened killers bursting at the seams from lack of war. If the message is that people require warfare to sooth their urges then that is a very stupid message. 

Ehhh, it's sort of a VERY SPECIFIC CONTEXT message.

It's not something that applies to normal people but when you have a murderous hereditary warrior caste, it certainly is true. This is also something Martin or the show didn't come up with either as it's actually a central theme of HENRY THE FOURTH PART 1 and 2 and HENRY THE FIFTH.

A large chunk of the problems faced by Henry IV and averted by Hal is due to the fact that the knights and nobles make problems if they're not directed to foreign quarrels.

Idle hands and knights invites treason.

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

To be fair, there's probably months-long time skip to the swearing of allegiance.

It would have been telling to see the fallout. But the way Rhaenys was checking her nails suggests to me the show is driving home the point how casual and inconsequential this type of slaughter is. 

Which doesn't send home the message of peace and prosperity. Scouring through history to find justifications here and there ignores the point that the era wants show prosperity which requires a psychology of good feelings. 

This is kind of a poor example but it drives home my point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Era_of_Good_Feelings 

I'm sure that between 1817-1825 there were people killing each other for petty reasons in America. But the point is relatively speaking their was positive energy that facilitates superficial displays of joy and grace (which breed into egoism that eventual proceeds a fallout into bad times). 

They should highlight the boisterous and colorful character of these knights of summer, not their dark, gritty, and violent nature. 

[butterweedstrover]

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

 

It's not something that applies to normal people but when you have a murderous hereditary warrior caste, it certainly is true. 

I very strongly disagree. 

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

 

Idle hands and knights invites treason.

That is something very different. Times of idleness and plenty did (and do) promote selfish behavior and egoism that breaks down the social structure that enforced the peace. But acts of selfishness don't encompass dumb and bitter acts of revenge committed for no conceivable end but a biological urge for violence. 

I don't believe humans have a biological urge for violence that needs sating.  

[C.T. Phipps]

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It would have been telling to see the fallout. But the way Rhaenys was checking her nails suggests to me the show is driving home the point how casual and inconsequential this type of slaughter is.

I mean Alicent is desperately trying not to freak the fuck out. I took that more as a Targaryen thing.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I very strongly disagree. 

That is something very different. Times of idleness and plenty did (and do) promote selfish behavior and egoism that breaks down the social structure that enforced the peace. But acts of selfishness don't encompass dumb and bitter acts of revenge committed for no conceivable end but a biological urge for violence. 

I don't believe humans have a biological urge for violence that needs sating.  

It's more the culture of toxic masculinity and warrior ethos that is the issue. This is actually, again, not something made up for the show but during the Shogunate, a lot of the samurai warrior caste became obsessed with proving themselves because the isolation and peace meant that they were constantly being told they were warriors and meant to prove themselves in battle but had no means of doing so. This also happened with periods of peace in France and Germany that have been documented. Its one of the reasons dueling became an out of control problem.

Like I said, it's not PEOPLE who crave blood, it's cultures of warriors.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Unloyal Bannermen said:

I think they mainly made the tournament so violent to have the contrast with the child-birth, but I think they did some things to somewhat justify it getting as violent as it was, with the king not being present, long times of peace, decadence, etc. 

But look at Renly's melee in ACoK as an example from the books. There, we have many knights that are also described as sweet summer children who have never known war, etc. But that melee wasn't particularly violent, and nobody was killed, IIRC.

[C.T. Phipps]

10 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But look at Renly's melee in ACoK as an example from the books. There, we have many knights that are also described as sweet summer children who have never known war, etc. But that melee wasn't particularly violent, and nobody was killed, IIRC.

I mean, we also have King Daeron's tournament that had multiple deaths in The Hedge Knight.

[butterweedstrover]

17 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It's more the culture of toxic masculinity and warrior ethos that is the issue. This is actually, again, not something made up for the show but during the Shogunate, a lot of the samurai warrior caste became obsessed with proving themselves because the isolation and peace meant that they were constantly being told they were warriors and meant to prove themselves in battle but had no means of doing so. This also happened with periods of peace in France and Germany that have been documented. Its one of the reasons dueling became an out of control problem.

Like I said, it's not PEOPLE who crave blood, it's cultures of warriors.

The chushingura is a play (while set in an earlier century) based on the retainers of some lord during the reign of the Tokogowa shogun (Edo period) were all the provinces were reunited under one rule. Due to a lack of war the Samurai had a change in status and yearned for nobility and honor through their skills. 12 of them broke the law to avenge their master and were celebrated for it. 

The difference? The warrior culture promoted a concept of honor and nobility. European knights as well had a sense of meekness behind their civilian display. They utilized arms to try and promote their physical morals not based on money lending (like merchant) or profit (like a mercenary). 

The acts of pettiness, selfishness, and backstabbing were not promoted, so no, their warrior culture did not promote this craving for blood. They were knights of noble houses with a reputation to uphold, not swords for hire. 

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, we also have King Daeron's tournament that had multiple deaths in The Hedge Knight.

That was right after a rebellion, we are talking about prolong periods of peace and "summer" knights. You a reaching for an excuse to justify this comical display of violence that does the opposite of depicting a period of "prosperity". 

[C.T. Phipps]

5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

That was right after a rebellion, we are talking about prolong periods of peace and "summer" knights. You a reaching for an excuse to justify this comical display of violence that does the opposite of depicting a period of "prosperity". 

No, I'm saying that I don't consider lots of violence at a tournament unusual in Martin's world.

[Leonardo Abreu]

Unfortunately I feel the lethal combats were not included as any deep commentary on the society of Westeros at the time, but rather as shock value for the casual viewers that came to see exactly that.

Just as dumb as Daemon jousting with an open face helmet.

For me 2 of the 3 things that detracted from a very nice episode (the other being unecessarily making Alicent and Rhaenyra BFFs just to increase the shock of what is to come)

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

No, I'm saying that I don't consider lots of violence at a tournament unusual in Martin's world.

You've been making historical arguments which preclude Martin's world. 

Now the comment you were responding gave an example where 'summer' knights are not shown to be harden killers but (like the metaphor to Renly says) bronze, pretty but brittle.  

The response that Martin's world has such examples in Dunk's tourney is besides the point because that was not an era of peace and prosperity, it was in the aftermath of a major rebellion. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

6 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, we also have King Daeron's tournament that had multiple deaths in The Hedge Knight.

The deaths didn't occur during the tourney itself but during the trial of seven, which is a completely different thing. In the tourney Aerion killed his opponent's horse and was disqualified. And when one of the participants lost his helmet, his opponent didn't aim for his head.

[Ran]

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

The response that Martin's world has such examples in Dunk's tourney is besides the point because that was not an era of peace and prosperity, it was in the aftermath of a major rebellion. 

Actually...

When "The Hedge Knight" was written, the Blackfyres and the Blackfyre Rebellion didn't exist. George came up with it only afterwards, which is why there's no hint of it in the text. Given the way Dunk talks of Baelor and Daeron, it has been a period of peace and plenty after the misrule of Aegon the Unworthy.

Yes, retroactively, now it's just a few years after a rebellion. But basically it shows that George's mind did not equate "peace and plenty" with "knights have become gladiators willingly dying for the love of the crowd". The violence on display is genuinely just over the top and doesn't fit the canon of the books. Particularly the outright murder of a downed opponent by the fellow with the ax. 

Like, I'm mostly okay with it because it's there for cinematic and thematic purposes. It's a statement, a bit of hyper-realism. But it can't really be fitted into the context of the books. It is their own take on things for the show canon, I guess, and maybe you find that more realistic, which is fine, but it's definitely not something that works in the context of the books. The culture of Westeros is what it is.

 

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Actually...

When "The Hedge Knight" was written, the Blackfyres and the Blackfyre Rebellion didn't exist. George came up with it only afterwards, which is why there's no hint of it in the text. Given the way Dunk talks of Baelor and Daeron, it has been a period of peace and plenty after the misrule of Aegon the Unworthy.

Yes, retroactively, now it's just a few years after a rebellion. But basically it shows that George's mind did not equate "peace and plenty" with "knights have become gladiators willingly dying for the love of the crowd". The violence on display is genuinely just over the top and doesn't fit the canon of the books. Particularly the outright murder of a downed opponent by the fellow with the ax. 

Like, I'm mostly okay with it because it's there for cinematic and thematic purposes. It's a statement, a bit of hyper-realism. But it can't really be fitted into the context of the books. It is their own take on things for the show canon, I guess, and maybe you find that more realistic, which is fine, but it's definitely not something that works in the context of the books. The culture of Westeros is what it is.

 

I know about the late editions of the blackfyres but regardless it is now part of the lore. 
And when I read Dunk & Egg it never came off as trying to showcase opulence or prosperity. 
 

The show is deliberately highlighting cold brutality (something not seen in Renly’s camp) as proof of prosperity. 
 

The characters in the tourney lacked color or humor in this scene making it seem the knights were not doing for theatrical purpose but from legitimate rage. 
 

Alongside the super dark lighting and the crumbling roof of the castle, and the deeply serious tone I can’t tell you where they are developing this opulence. 
 

Game of Thrones did it better. At Robert’s tourney (the hand’s tourney) everyone is jovial until Clegane straight up tries to kill his opponent. 
 

Here people aren’t shock or amused, they’re just bored with the slaughter.

[James Arryn]

Been saying forever, people really underestimate how dangerous tourneys could be. More kings of France died fighting in tournaments than in battle. The Pope excommunicated tourney participants BECAUSE it was essentially seen as public murder. People like Edward III primarily recruited knights from the tourney set because he said it was harder than battle, where most people you’d face would be nowhere near as deadly as the average tourney knight. 
 

And as the OP mentioned, yes Cat thinks ‘knights of summer’…but that’s Cat being one of the least identified unreliable narrators in the series, here showing she has unconsciously adopted Northern bias. Her ‘knights of summer’ kicked ass when they got to real war. Tourneys could be absolutely warlike and the idea that it was all blunted weapons and gentlemanly etiquette is to base the whole idea on a very limited example; tourneys had different rules wherever you went, some used blunted, others normal weapons. Some were to submission, some were a la Guere, ie ~ to the death. But even to submission is often extremely deadly when the means of convincing someone to yield was to attack them with deadly weapons…not a lot of pause buttons in real life combat, and you can’t set your warhammer to half-speed. Even the rules of melee varied, some were confined to a specific event, others were, as in the HotD opener, something that could be engaged in spontaneously if the downed rider did not choose to submit. 
 

And speaking of speed, two warhorses charging each other at speed mounted by heavily armed and armoured knights is far and away the most violent impact in a medieval setting, akin to the force of an inner city individual car crash, except with less structural protection and with sharp pointy lances sticking out the front. That’s nothing if not deadly violence.  

[Daeron the Daring]

Definitely too violent. It was just a show-off. The same thing as Ben Affleck's Batmobil running through civilian cars. A lot of them casual watchers (either lacking the background of the age of the books/source material) just don't realise the weight of people dying for nothing. And in no offensive way, but europeans mostly would and do know how it should happen, whereas american audience does not, most of the time. Education is at fault here thou, medieval history is often much important than early modern, late modern or victorian history (especially if your nation's history is most glorious in the middle ages, applies for me).