Daemon Targaryen: not a man so admired, so beloved, and so reviled (+book spoilers)

[EggBlue]

what do you make of Daemon Targaryen ?

Daemon is responsible for some of the most veracious actions in F&B including ordering the death sentence of Aegon II and Haelana's innocent son . 

but then there are many many accusations that we are just not sure about. according to Gilydane , it seems Daemon was driven by ambitions and lust for power more than anything. however , from what we've seen so far in the show, Daemon has zero interest in his brother's throne and instead seems to crave his brother's approval and love more than anything and acts like an angry sulky kid when he is denied of it . although , admittedly , it's too soon to say how the show is going to portray Daemon . 

so , what do you think? why do people admire Daemon and why do they revile him?

 

 

[C.T. Phipps]

My inclination for Daemon Targaryen is that there's a very good argument that he's BORED and frustrated for motivations. He's a Targaryen with all the ambition, genius, bloodthirstiness, and ruthlessness that said lineage implies. However, he's the spare to the throne and doesn't have anything to do except for what his brother delegates toward him so Daemon has been making "busy work" for himself to keep himself occupied. The Goldcloaks, the Stepstones, and other actions are all there to give him options. I wouldn't be surprised if his plan to give his mistress a dragon egg was because he planned to conquer Lys.

Weirdly, I think an interesting parallel for Daemon Targaryen is pre-traumatic brain injury Maegor the Cruel. Maegor wasn't interested in overthrowing Aenys I no matter how weak of a king he was. Instead, Maegor put down the rebellion in the Vale. It was only when Maegor was exiled by his brother to appease his political enemies that Maegor turned against him.

[Lord Varys]

It seems the show decided to turn Daemon's ambition into an expression of Daemon's desire to be loved by his brother. And that's not contradicting the book, it merely makes sense of his actions and his general behavior.

After all, Daemon doesn't have the patience or ability to actually deal with the day-to-day aspects of ruling a kingdom. He shows that not only on the Small Council but as 'King of the Narrow Sea' when he abandons his kingdom. In a sense, I think, he understood when he did that that he wasn't made to rule as king ... which is then also the reason why he never actually tried to seize power from Rhaenyra and rule in her name.

The moment in the show when Daemon and Rhaenyra decide that she is going to be the one who wears the pants in their marriage should be pretty powerful. Because it must be clear when they marry that Rhaenyra remains the Heir Apparent and will be queen one day while Daemon is only going to support her, not rule her.

49 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Weirdly, I think an interesting parallel for Daemon Targaryen is pre-traumatic brain injury Maegor the Cruel. Maegor wasn't interested in overthrowing Aenys I no matter how weak of a king he was. Instead, Maegor put down the rebellion in the Vale. It was only when Maegor was exiled by his brother to appease his political enemies that Maegor turned against him.

I don't think that's the case. Visenya sets up Maegor's usurpation from the start of Aenys' reign by publicly and secretly undermining him and questioning his ability to rule. That Maegor didn't get around to turn against Aenys doesn't mean he was all that loyal or not coveting the crown.

[C.T. Phipps]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that's the case. Visenya sets up Maegor's usurpation from the start of Aenys' reign by publicly and secretly undermining him and questioning his ability to rule. That Maegor didn't get around to turn against Aenys doesn't mean he was all that loyal or not coveting the crown.

I absolutely think Maegor was loyal to his brother and willing to protect him. They had a strong power dynamic with Maegor as the Hand and taking care of the dirty business of crushing their enemies as well as giving good advice (Visenya too--like "burn down the sept or give into the demands"). It was only after Aenys betrayed Maegor for a faith that hated them and insulted his parents polygamous marriage by banishing hi for it that Maegor lost his loyalty.

Even then it was only when Aenys had utterly derailed the Seven Kingdoms, fled into hiding, and proven that he would destroy the Targaryen conquest that he was poisoned.

Without Maegor, Aenys would have fallen even earlier.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Without Maegor, Aenys would have fallen even earlier.

Maegor's second marriage started the conflict with the Faith. He is responsible for that. And his conduct in the Vale rebellion was also not that great. Hanging everyone wasn't exactly helping the Targaryens to win back the love of their subjects.

His later behavior pretty much shows that he wasn't a guy you could trust.

[C.T. Phipps]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Maegor's second marriage started the conflict with the Faith. He is responsible for that. And his conduct in the Vale rebellion was also not that great. Hanging everyone wasn't exactly helping the Targaryens to win back the love of their subjects.

His later behavior pretty much shows that he wasn't a guy you could trust.

1. The second marriage caused an issue but Aenys marrying his children to one another is what caused the general uprising of the Faith against "King Abomination."

2. The hanging was necessary and a generally appropriate reaction to people who had already proven turncloak twice as Cregan Stark did the exact same thing.

3. I think Maegor's behavior changed dramatically after his coma/death and is not a example of his normal personality.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

1. The second marriage caused an issue but Aenys marrying his children to one another is what caused the general uprising of the Faith against "King Abomination."

Not according to Jaehaerys' interpretation of events.

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

2. The hanging was necessary and a generally appropriate reaction to people who had already proven turncloak twice as Cregan Stark did the exact same thing.

Maegor killed all of the people involved in a humiliating fashion for highborn nobles ... and he did that after they had already dealt with the kinslayer Jonos, switching back to the Targaryen rule. He could have shown mercy there.

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

3. I think Maegor's behavior changed dramatically after his coma/death and is not a example of his normal personality.

That isn't in the book. The difference is that Maegor could do what he wanted as king, while he couldn't do that while his father and brother sat the throne.

It would be interesting if the blow to the head triggered a change in personality ... but this isn't in the text. He was a cruel sadist even before that.

[EggBlue]

guys! back to Daemon...

[EggBlue]

I personally think show's interpretation of Daemon's motives makes complete sense with the book so far . he is not coveting the throne or power . in a sense , he is like a dragon himself , he is overly passionate in whatever he decides to do  and he goes to extremes both in his hates and his loves . the way he deals with Luke's death is evidence of that . Blood and Cheese incident was not only a cruel move but also a stupid one . doesn't matter if his target was Aegon's son or one of Alicent's sons but it was as such that peace became even more impossible . 

I also agree that we can consider Daemon as a less cruel , more intelligent , toned down version of Maegor or Aemond. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

11 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I also agree that we can consider Daemon as a less cruel , more intelligent , toned down version of Maegor or Aemond. 

But at the end of the day, Otto Hightower was right in comparing him to Maegor and doing whatever he could to keep him away from the throne. It's just that the other alternatives weren't much better, as it turned out later.

[C.T. Phipps]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But at the end of the day, Otto Hightower was right in comparing him to Maegor and doing whatever he could to keep him away from the throne. It's just that the other alternatives weren't much better, as it turned out later.

The thing is that Otto is Rogar Baratheon except much-much nastier.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But at the end of the day, Otto Hightower was right in comparing him to Maegor and doing whatever he could to keep him away from the throne. It's just that the other alternatives weren't much better, as it turned out later.

Daemon wouldn't have been a great king, but he wouldn't have been a Maegor. More like a milder version of Aerys II, being so changeable and lazy that he could be lead around by the nose by a competent Hand and council. (Although, of course, not by Otto Hightower.) The older Daemon may have even made a pretty decent king, having settled down somewhat and having become more cautious. The young Daemon seems to have been more prone to excesses.

Otto's priorities can be deduced easily from the fact that he wants his own grandson - who would be an utter disaster as king - on the throne rather than Rhaenyra - who is both groomed for the role and much more qualified.

If he truly was about 'the common good' or the 'interest of the Realm/Crown' then he would have told Alicent that they should stick to Rhaenyra ... or perhaps go with Aemond or even Daeron rather than the cruel wastrel. Not to mention, you know, that a man who wasn't self-serving as fuck would have tried to find a peaceful solution to the succession mess.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The older Daemon may have even made a pretty decent king, having settled down somewhat and having become more cautious. The young Daemon seems to have been more prone to excesses.

As king he would have had absolute power, so it's possible that he would have become even more prone to excesses.

[C.T. Phipps]

I don't think Daemon was ever lazy as his actions in the Stepstones and Goldcloaks show his potential.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As king he would have had absolute power, so it's possible that he would have become even more prone to excesses.

Older men rarely have the need to prove themselves. Daemon had his excesses in KL and on the Stepstones and perhaps even during his journeys in Essos with Laena.

We do have Aemond as a kind of carbon copy of Daemon - he is still a young man and cannot really control himself which is his undoing. Daemon is older and more cautious ... still dangerous, of course, but not the kind of guy who eradicate an entire noble house on a whim.

And even young Daemon didn't have the stomach nor the patience for actual ruling. As king, he would have left most of this stuff to his Hand and council.

2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I don't think Daemon was ever lazy as his actions in the Stepstones and Goldcloaks show his potential.

He comes across as somewhat bi-polar. In his manic phases he got things done ... but those phases never lasted. And he never had the patience for tedious, boring work.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Perhaps the worst thing Daemon did was the sexual grooming and corrupting of his niece. I wonder if they will cast MUSHROOM? Please do not bring back Dinklage for that either!

 

[C.T. Phipps]

10 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Perhaps the worst thing Daemon did was the sexual grooming and corrupting of his niece. I wonder if they will cast MUSHROOM? Please do not bring back Dinklage for that either!

That's an accusation by Mushroom but I don't see any sign she was corrupted. Unless we're judging her by Westeros' insane standards.

[A Ghost of Someone]

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

That's an accusation by Mushroom but I don't see any sign she was corrupted. Unless we're judging her by Westeros' insane standards.

I do, but then you either see the path of which she was led or not.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Perhaps the worst thing Daemon did was the sexual grooming and corrupting of his niece. I wonder if they will cast MUSHROOM? Please do not bring back Dinklage for that either!

I'd imagine that the murders he allegedly arranged are far worse than marrying his niece. But that's just me.

[Raksha 2014]

So far, I find Daemon vaguely amusing and quite easy on the eyes, but not particularly admirable.

He seems like an overgrown teenaged spoiled brat; craving approval:  the Goldcloaks' approval, the crowd's approval (at the tourney, turning from his fallen foe to preen to the crowd so that his foe, the resourceful Criston, had time to get up and take the advantage), Rhaenyra's approval, Viserys' approval.  I think he's fond of both Viserys and (in both a familial and potentially sexual way) Rhaenyra; and that Viserys is the one person Daemon will never betray.  Daemon displayed poor sportsmanship at the tournament; and poor sportsmanship is always a buzzkill as far as I'm concerned.

Daemon definitely needs pretty constant stimulation - things to do, people to fight and kill, women to make love to, battles to plan, etc.  I think he's something of an adrenaline junkie.  He'd make a terrible King; he couldn't sit still for more than a day or two without starting a war somewhere.  

And it was horrible and inexcusable of Daemon to send Blood & Cheese to murder little Jaehaerys.  I wonder if the TV show writers will have someone else give the order to let Daemon off the hook (if they do that, please don't let it be Lord Corlys; he's my new TV boyfriend!).  

If Daemon wanted to assassinate someone, why oh why couldn't he send someone to murder Otto Hightower, preferably before Queen Aemma's death?