[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[teej6]

My favorite so far is Rhaenyra. I do dislike how they are whitewashing Alicent and why in the hell does Viserys not tell Rhaenyra that he has decided on Alicent when he’a having the “need to marry again” conversation with her. Rhaenyra seems to understand and sympathize with his predicament. That was badly done.  

[Winterfell is Burning]

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I actually like how utterly unromantic it's being made. Viserys ISNT that interested in Alicent but he's sure as shit less viscerally disgusted (I keep needing to use that word) at a sexual relationship with her than Laena.

So she's a compromise candidate.

Well, you know, he's the king, it's not like those two were his only options.

[Fez]

7 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I actually like how utterly unromantic it's being made. Viserys ISNT that interested in Alicent but he's sure as shit less viscerally disgusted (I keep needing to use that word) at a sexual relationship with her than Laena.

So she's a compromise candidate.

I haven't read the source material this show's based on, but I would think that there are more powerful Houses out there than the Hightowers who also have eligible daughters. Seems like a Lannister or someone on that level would be the smarter move if he diddn't want to marry a little kid.

[Zorral]

3 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Paddy Considine continues to be the best actor, but Milly Alcock was great as well. In terms of the dialogue, the scenes between their characters were the best, whearas other dialogue scenes were more reminiscent meh to decent GoT scenes, such as Rhaenyra with Rhaenys, Daemon and Mysaria, and Daemon and Corlys. Mysaria is too much like GoT Shae

[Lord Varys]

44 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Can someone remind me where Vhagar was at this point in the books? I feel like the answer wasn't "who knows?"

Vhagar was either already with Laena at that point, or in the Dragonpit where she doesn't fit in the show. Her previous rider, Baelon, died in KL, so one imagines his dragon was where he was at the time, not on Dragonstone.

I imagine they decided to have Vhagar be someplace else in the show because they want to give us a tantalizing story how she ends up with Laena. Of course, it was a great choice to have be no dragonrider when Viserys spurns her since ... it would be a pretty stupid move to do this. Although, of course, book Viserys actually does spurn the dragonrider Laena. Which is just utter stupidity and something they clearly thought they could not possibly sell in the show.

44 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I started late and have paused a bunch, so I just got to Daemon's note. Fond memories of many debates about whether Targaryen princes could practice polygamy without the king's blessing. I know @Lord Varys will remember those.

Well, I kind of feel the writers must have looked up certain fandom debates when writing this stuff. Daemon is the guy who should and would have considered the polygamy thing. Of course, the show gives it a special spin by stressing the Valyrian part of it (which is only confirmed for Maegor's second marriage) but it fits pretty well.

And it is, I must say, a pretty big 'fuck you!' to two guys who came up with an annulment and a letter to a High Septon if you get my meaning.

44 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Am I right that the valyrian speaking Dragon Keepers are an invention of the show?

Yes. Although I'd imagine that me are going to see, well, the military branch of the order eventually, too. These bald guys are not going to defend the dragons all that well during the Storming of the Dragonpit. But it makes sense that the Targaryens had people steeped in traditional dragonlore taking care of their dragons.

Really liked certain little things in the episode:

Viserys - a guy who doesn't seem to like dragons too much - mounting Balerion of all dragons makes so much sense in the show because he is that last creature remembering Old Valyria. He wanted to connect to that. In the book, the paragraph about Prince Viserys mounting an ailing, dying dragon reads horrible. The guy comes across both as a moron (where would one fly on a dying dragon? To the nearest dragon graveyard?) and as a guy who wanted to torture the poor animal. But in the show this makes sense.

Then there is Viserys not having the courage to talk to Rhaenyra about Alicent. There is a pattern there, the guy hates conflict so much that he talking about things he knows will be awkward with people he loves. But it is still a dick move to tell Alicent to not talk to Rhaenyra about their 'relationship' nor actually telling Rhaenyra who he wants to marry. Or perhaps ask for her advice/opinion.

I know they wanted the Alicent revelation to be a surprise there ... but one really wonders what it is that triggered that decision. Otto tried to undermine the Laena match subtly but he didn't dare to speak against it, and Alicent didn't put herself forth, either. I hope there is more to their relationship than Alicent just being there.

And, man, is she a pawn. Mr. Crown didn't even deem Alicent important enough for her to hear about the whole Daemon crisis. You really cannot wait until somebody puts him into his place.

But with Corlys, Rhaenys, and Lyonel all speaking for Laena, the final decision is kind of weird.

28 minutes ago, RumHam said:

So Otto's plan was basically to hope Daemon forgot he had a dragon? I wish instead of "what are you doing here princess" it was just their plan. Or have Otto send some people hoping Daemon will roast them and get banished to the wall.

Otto seems to have channeled the stupidity of Rogar Baratheon in that scene. But I think when he prepares to leave for Dragonstone the actor has an expression on his face that indicates that he knows he is taking a pretty big risk there. Although I guess he wanted Viserys to stay behind so he had control of the situation and could escalate things to the limit, perhaps getting a chance to put Daemon down if it came to blows.

It may be that Viserys not being the greatest dragon fan caused folks to kind of forget that they were there and could be used. But it was always a problem with the setting that folks actually seem to think a bunch of swords make a difference when your opponent rides a huge dragon.

28 minutes ago, zajaz said:

Am I the only one who found Rhaenyra a little bratty during Criston Cole's selection? If so, that's good. At least the writers are not whitewashing her (for now).

The bratty one there was Otto. The guy should suck up to the heir he himself created, rather than treat her like a child. And she was not wrong.

29 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Rhaenyra is just a badass.  She handles Daemon as only she can handle him.  He planned to allow his Dragon to intimidate the people sent.  She wouldn’t let him get away with that.  I like her… a lot.

That was really a great scene, since it establishes why their marriage is going to work. Daemon recognizes her authority there. Not explicitly, but he backs down, presumably because he feels his niece does have teeth and that his brother actually made the right call naming her his heir. I imagine it will be a process but he will recognize that she is better monarch material than he is, and that's why there is later no quarrel in their marriage about who is in charge. Which would have happened if Daemon had still been after the Iron Throne at that point.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Lord Varys

[Lord of Brewtown]

Yes, Paddy has been great; but, I also think Eve Best has been excellent in her limited screen time as Rhaenys.   

I was underwhelmed by the opening graphics that replaced the maps.   

[Corvinus85]

6 minutes ago, Fez said:

I haven't read the source material this show's based on, but I would think that there are more powerful Houses out there than the Hightowers who also have eligible daughters. Seems like a Lannister or someone on that level would be the smarter move if he diddn't want to marry a little kid.

The show didn't make it clear, but the Hightowers are nearly as wealthy as the Lannisters at this time. Their commerce made them rich, and throughout history it seems that there was a toss up as to who was wealthier between the two at any given time. Also, the Hightowers while vassals to the Tyrells command vassals of their own and are quite powerful.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Corvinus85

[C.T. Phipps]

5 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Well, you know, he's the king, it's not like those two were his only options.

Yeah and if Viserys wasn't getting Laena pressed upon him by his disgusting pedophiliac Small Council, he probably would have thought of this. However, Viserys clearly hates making any sort of decision and his mind is clearly not in the right place. Frankly, he could have done a search or a ball or any number of other matters.

However, Otto has made his daughter seem to be the only other option.

5 minutes ago, Fez said:

I haven't read the source material this show's based on, but I would think that there are more powerful Houses out there than the Hightowers who also have eligible daughters. Seems like a Lannister or someone on that level would be the smarter move if he diddn't want to marry a little kid.

Or, he could have done what Viserys does later and says, "Listen, I don't want to marry Laena because I've already lost a daughter to childbirth and that is stupid as hell as well as dangerous. How about we betroth Rhaenyrs and your son."

[Winterfell is Burning]

3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

 I do dislike how they are whitewashing Alicent

It isn't whitewashing anyone. The books have very unreliable narrators (and if you read history enough, you know about the "scheming seductress" trope is used over and over by sexist historians, specially in ancient times), and it works better for a narrative for the characters to develop their darker sides as the conflict grows.

 

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

The show didn't make it clear, but the Hightowers are nearly as wealthy as the Lannisters at this time. Their commerce made them rich, and throughout history it seems that there was a toss up as to who was wealthier between the two at any given time. Also, the Hightowers while vassals to the Tyrells command vassals of their own and are quite powerful.

As the show pointed out, Otto is a 2nd son who stands to inherit nothing and the Hightowers are already deep in the government with him as Hand anyway.

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

As the show pointed out, Otto is a 2nd son who stands to inherit nothing and the Hightowers are already deep in the government with him as Hand anyway.

But now they'll be even, ahem, deeper. The Hand office is not a hereditary position. 

[Corvinus85]

I appreciate that the show acknowledged that the Kingsguard is made of seven individuals, which GoT played fast and loose with. Also liked small details, such as when Rhaenyra storms out of the council room, a Kingsguard is right on her heels.

[teej6]

3 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

It isn't whitewashing anyone. The books have very unreliable narrators (and if you read history enough, you know about the "scheming seductress" trope is used over and over by sexist historians, specially in ancient times), and it works better for a narrative for the characters to develop their darker sides as the conflict grows.

I am well aware the book is based on unreliable sources. I’m not saying or expecting her to be a scheming seductress but making her best friends with Rhaenyra and and a confidant and sympathetic to Rhaenyra is over kill. They can make the character nuanced without any of these additions.

[RumHam]

I like how Otto doesn't even bother to act surprised at the end.

You remember how years ago when someone's nipple would come out at the super bowl people supposedly called in by the thousands to complain? Does anyone have the number to complain when Hot D airs an episode without anyone hanging dong?

[Winterfell is Burning]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

I am well aware the book is based on unreliable sources. I’m not saying or expecting her to be a scheming seductress but making her best friends with Rhaenyra and and a confidant and sympathetic to Rhaenyra is over kill. They can make the character nuanced without any of these additions.

It works better as a drama if their relationship starts as a genuine friendship that turns into rivalry and hate.

[Raksha 2014]

32 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I feel the same way about this episode as I did about the premiere: it was okay. Not amazing, but not bad. That said, I think I would have liked it less if I hadn't read the books. 

Great acting from Milly Alcock. Rhaenyra is written in a very interesting way--she vacillates between meaning well and wanted her father's approval, and being a bit of a brat. The scene between her and Rhaenys was done well, but there was some serious cattiness/mean girl vibes going on. It's clear that it was intended to show Rhaenys passing on her wisdom to Rhaenyra, but instead it came across like a middle-aged woman trying to antagonize a teenage girl.

Alicent is. . . meh. They're trying to make her sympathetic by having her be Otto's pawn (and it's clear that she has by now figured out what he's up to and isn't happy about it), but I prefer the schemer/social climber from the books. In away, this change is a bit regressive. I did like how she managed to tactfully push Rhaenyra and Viserys towards reconciliation, though. 

Little Laena was so cute, but dear God, that was a bad wig they put her in.

I've seen some people say that having Viserys reject Laena makes his decision to marry Alicent more sensible, but the thing is, Alicent is still only 15--just one year older than Laena would be at the time of consummation (the fact that she has a high-pitched, girlish voice makes it even worse). Viserys was thinking with his dick and it made my skin crawl.

I dunno, I just don't find Daemon all that charming. Faking a marriage/pregnancy just to get big brother's attention is major manchild behavior, and him being much older than in the books makes it more obnoxious.

Mysaria was horribly miscast. Her performance was significantly worse than the rest of the cast's, and it really stuck out. (I've only seen the actress in Crazy Rich Asians and she was fine, but that was a comedy). Her costume also looked too modern. like a wedding dress. 

I liked Corlys' performance, but it felt. . . different than everyone else? More theatrical.

We're really starting to see Viserys' weakness as a ruler, although his determination to avoid war is more admirable than anyone in-universe gives him credit for (and to Rhaenyra's credit, she found a way to diffuse the standoff with Daemon without any bloodshed). He has a frank conversation with his daughter about needing to remarry, yet doesn't bother to tell her that he's chosen Alicent. Also, he said Rhaenys was his favorite cousin. Aemma was your cousin too, my guy!

I like how we're seeing Viserys turn to Lyonel instead of the rest of his council for fair judgement. That said, it's weird that they didn't have anyone argue that getting remarried would cause a new succession crisis.

The dialogue was, much like last week, fine. It was a bit more repetitive this time, like with all the times someone said something about Viserys "needing to do his duty and remarry."

It was mentioned (can't remember by who) that Rhaenyra is 14; but did did anyone say that Alicent is currently 15?  She certainly looks older than 15, more like 17 at least.  

There is definitely something childish about Daemon.  He's an overgrown spoiled brat teenager who can't sit still without starting a fight or joining one.  And he craves not only attention but approval.  (whereas Viserys would be delighted to have a quiet family life out of the limelight and far away from the Iron Throne)

I liked Laena; she's cute and earnest and trying to be a credit to her family, a little girl sent to do a woman's job.  I don't think either parent should have pimped her out like that so young; I mean, it's obvious that Viserys is still grieving, he could not respond as a prospective even possible bridegroom to a little girl; at least Alicent, if she is only 15 in the TV show, at least she has a woman's form and some emotional maturity.  (but it's Westeros and it's cracked; and it could be that the Velaryons want to save Viserys from a worse match, which is exactly what does happen.  What might have happened if Viserys had married off Alicent to someone else, and waited not two years but four for little Laena to mature and then married her?  Would there still have been a Dance of Dragons?)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Alicent looks pretty young to me too.  Not like a little kid but like a younger teen.  Still really creepy to marry an older man like Viserys.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, RumHam said:

I like how Otto doesn't even bother to act surprised at the end.

You remember how years ago when someone's nipple would come out at the super bowl people supposedly called in by the thousands to complain? Does anyone have the number to complain when Hot D airs an episode without anyone hanging dong?

Well, if you think about it, Otto basically seems to be a successful Unwin Peake there. That guy thought it was enough to get the king acquainted with his daughter. It didn't work with Aegon III, but apparently with his grandfather.

Thinking about it - I think there is a small hint there in the way Paddy plays it that Viserys is pissed that folks push him to marry. He doesn't want Laena, so he grabs the next best thing. And I imagine Otto knew Viserys well enough that not pushing him there all but ensured that he would choose Alicent himself.

Viserys likely thinks Alicent is a great choice because she is Otto's daughter and Rhaenyra's friend. So no problem with his innermost circle, right? What could possibly go wrong there?

Kind of confused about some dialogue in the show. So Rhaenys is Viserys' favorite cousin? What about his late wife, Queen Aemma? Was she only his second favorite cousin? He only has two legitimate cousins, anyway.

They also clearly didn't retcon Aemma into a sister-wife since she clearly refers to Daemon as Viserys' brother, not their brother, in the pilot.

Also a pity that Aemma being a child bride didn't came up in the talks. It could have been a great way to establish that Viserys doesn't want another one of those, never mind how much he loved Aemma. Also, they could have touched on the dragon in the room, namely, addressed the question why Viserys didn't marry his 'favorite cousin' Rhaenys back in the day. I think it could have worked nicely if Rhaenys had spurned Viserys for Corlys, giving Viserys now the moral right to spurn Laena in turn.

[zajaz]

The age gap here is even worse than in the books. Alicent was actually 18 and Viserys 29 when they got married, IIRC.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, zajaz said:

The age gap here is even worse than in the books. Alicent was actually 18 and Viserys 29 when they got married, IIRC.

I mean very deliberately so.

[zajaz]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, if you think about it, Otto basically seems to be a successful Unwin Peake there. That guy thought it was enough to get the king acquainted with his daughter. It didn't work with Aegon III, but apparently with his grandfather.

Thinking about it - I think there is a small hint there in the way Paddy plays it that Viserys is pissed that folks push him to marry. He doesn't want Laena, so he grabs the next best thing. And I imagine Otto knew Viserys well enough that not pushing him there all but ensured that he would choose Alicent himself.

Viserys likely thinks Alicent is a great choice because she is Otto's daughter and Rhaenyra's friend. So no problem with his innermost circle, right? What could possibly go wrong there?

Kind of confused about some dialogue in the show. So Rhaenys is Viserys' favorite cousin? What about his late wife, Queen Aemma? Was she only his second favorite cousin? He only has two legitimate cousins, anyway.

They also clearly didn't retcon Aemma into a sister-wife since she clearly refers to Daemon as Viserys' brother, not their brother, in the pilot.

Also a pity that Aemma being a child bride didn't came up in the talks. It could have been a great way to establish that Viserys doesn't want another one of those, never mind how much he loved Aemma. Also, they could have touched on the dragon in the room, namely, addressed the question why Viserys didn't marry his 'favorite cousin' Rhaenys back in the day. I think it could have worked nicely if Rhaenys had spurned Viserys for Corlys, giving Viserys now the moral right to spurn Laena in turn.

Well, it could be that he considered Aemma his wife more than his cousin. Saera's bastards still exist, I guess (maybe for book readers only, though), and he said Rhaenys was his favourite cousin, as in present; Aemma died half a year ago, so...

Edited August 29, 2022 by zajaz