[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[slant]

16 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Also, I personally did not get any romantic vibes between Alicent and Rhaenyra - they seemed like close friends and confidantes. It's almost as if 2 friends can't have a moment of affection without people labelling it as romance or queer-baiting. I wouldn't be surprised if some viewers think Rhaenyra is jealous of Viserys/Alicent because she's in love with Alicent.... sigh. 

IMO, the show went for really close sisters as against queer-baiting (this is what the actors claim in the Character Features anyway), but considering its prevalence, and possible use in GoT, I would not grudge someone taking the opportunity to talk about it, if only to raise awareness.  

13 minutes ago, Crixus said:

I enjoyed both episodes a lot. Could also be because I'm currently re-reading F&B. I actually didn't mind the lack of humour at all; this is likely because while I loved the humour in the early seasons of GoT, I absolutely loathed the 'cock-balls-cock/i drink and know things' bullshit in the later ones. Ugh. So I'm perfectly happy with the absence of a clearly obvious 'witty' character atm.

Tyrion was one of the highlights of the early seasons, but yeah towards the end it had devolved to weird jokes about the private parts of Varys. I hope this show has some good scenes with more subtle humour like the unexpected heart to heart between Robert and Cersei, or when Arya became Tywin's cupbearer at Harrenhal. 

[Winterfell is Burning]

4 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

The books take on polygamy is very strange indeed incest is fine but not polygamy. Polygamy was a thing in most parts of the world. If anything polygamy was to increase chances for survival of dynasty.

Female taking multiple husband though wasnt so universal.Its still on practice in certain pockect of Himalayan & Tibet region that lack resource so brothers get married to single woman but not really like male polygamy where they marry anyone they like.

But people in general don't think polygamy is fine, it's just the Targaryens imposed it on Westeros by force.

[hnv]

Several things I liked/made me wonder:

- It's quite telling how KL and Westeros have diminished from the time of hotD to the books. I found it interesting how the big houses aren't as dominant around KL as some of their bannermen are. It's plausible that the conquest pushed the 7 big houses substantially back in influence and by the time of Robert's Rebellion they resumed their role in the front stage. After Robert's Rebellion the 7K were one kingdom only nominally. 

Perhaps it was even a direct Targaryen strategy to great direct links between the strongest bannermen to the crown

- House Velaryon is also interesting in its fall. From the greatest house after the royals to a mid-ranking house. It's not only siding with Aerys during the rebellion. for over a century before the rebellion Targaryens hardly married with them as frequently and chose Andal and Dornish nobility.

- The small council acts like a government! another institutions that by the time of Robert's Rebellion diminished greatly in influence. 

[hnv]

5 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

The books take on polygamy is very strange indeed incest is fine but not polygamy. Polygamy was a thing in most parts of the world. If anything polygamy was to increase chances for survival of dynasty.

Female taking multiple husband though wasnt so universal.Its still on practice in certain pockect of Himalayan & Tibet region that lack resource so brothers get married to single woman but not really like male polygamy where they marry anyone they like.

In a feudal system where inheritance is pivotal and often contested it makes perfect sense for norms to evolve that frown upon polygamy. Almost any lord who had sons from multiple wives has his house filled with resent. 

[David Selig]

16 minutes ago, hnv said:

In a feudal system where inheritance is pivotal and often contested it makes perfect sense for norms to evolve that frown upon polygamy. Almost any lord who had sons from multiple wives has his house filled with resent. 

But this didn't happen in most of the world which had nobility and inheritable titles. China, the Muslim world, India, the Mongols, etc, all had legal polygamy and nobles practiced it widely. 

[legba11]

I loved this Ep.  Just a step below the great episodes of GoT.

The few minor dings:

I'm not sold on the actress for the heir Rhaneys(?)  I don't know if it's just her bizarre appearance, or some confusing character choices, but I don't understand what she's doing in most scenes.  She's not as bad as the mannequin (Danerys) or the bland pretty boy (Jon Snow), and maybe as the season goes I'll get her performance more

The time jumps were inconsistent and jarring.  How long has it been since the queen died?  The king says less than 6 months, but the council indicates Dr Who has been occupying Dragonstone for more than six months, and we know he didn't do that right away.  The last scene between Dr Who and Black Valerian (I really need to learn names, but they are hard to understand) took place back at Dr Who's home, so that was clearly after some time.  Did he abandon Dragonstone?

But those are small issues and everything cracked this episode.   We finally got see some of the actors perform.  I am sold on the King, Black Valerion, Dr. Who, Princess Hightower and the pudgy white guy on the small council.  They all join Lord Hightower, who was the only one who I thought gave a notable performance in Ep1.

Great scene on the stairs with dragons!  I love the Tardis dragon!!!

Lord Hightower is my favorite part of the show.  He has become Bronn/Varys as the character I want in every scene.  The Lizard is killing it.

Several languid two handed scenes!  Woohoo!  Back to the great seasons of GoT.  And all of them without boobs, birds or butts!!!!

Princess Hightower is performing great, someone slap the director.  We don't know to see the closeup of her hands.  She is delivering that information without the highlighter smeared all over the scene.  It's disrespectful to the performer and the audience. 

The king is so well potrayed.  He is doing the right thing, and has a good heart, but does the realm need someone more like a Tywin Lannister right now?  The show was never able to capture this since S1.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Crixus said:

I enjoyed both episodes a lot. Could also be because I'm currently re-reading F&B. I actually didn't mind the lack of humour at all; this is likely because while I loved the humour in the early seasons of GoT, I absolutely loathed the 'cock-balls-cock/i drink and know things' bullshit in the later ones. Ugh. So I'm perfectly happy with the absence of a clearly obvious 'witty' character atm.

I'm Asian, but I have to say, some of the criticism in the media - I believe @The Bard of Banefort shared a couple of links - stretches credulity and is exasperating. Are we saying Asian actors can only play powerful paragons of virtue? Why not wait and see how Mysaria develops a bit? Also, I personally did not get any romantic vibes between Alicent and Rhaenyra - they seemed like close friends and confidantes. It's almost as if 2 friends can't have a moment of affection without people labelling it as romance or queer-baiting. I wouldn't be surprised if some viewers think Rhaenyra is jealous of Viserys/Alicent because she's in love with Alicent.... sigh. 

Question: do we have any indication where S1 will end? It's cool if not. Just wondering. 

Another question: re-reading F&B, it struck me just how bleak that shit is. So many kids end up dying horribly. Are they going to show all that? I believe they've cast Jace, Luce and Joff along with Aemond and Aegon II, which makes me think yes. But imagining them showing the fate of Jaehaerys and Maelor... jeez. Wonder how the audience, especially non-readers, will react? I don't think I have the stomach for it myself. 

As soon as they announced Mysaria’s casting last year, I knew there’d be backlash. It wouldn’t matter if she had a heart of gold; she’s a sex worker, and for some people, that’s all they can focus on. There’ll all but certainly be backlash for “burying your gays” as well.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Can you tell me where do they say that Alicent is 14 in the show? Till this episode I was convinced she was 18, she certainly looks the part.

I will never understand fans obsession with child marriages, they are creepy and should be fast forwarded as much as possible. 

 

Sometimes I love him, sometimes I just don't. I'm on the fence with the guy.

Viserys mentioned that Rhaenyra is 15 in this week’s episode, and there’s been nothing suggesting that they aren’t the same age.

[hnv]

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

But this didn't happen in most of the world which had nobility and inheritable titles. China, the Muslim world, India, the Mongols, etc, all had legal polygamy and nobles practiced it widely. 

None of them had the amount of internal strife Westeros has. The laws of inheritance there were also codified rules backed by theology, in ASOIAF they’re more like standards

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Considering they intend to spend 3 seasons on the Dance itself, they really should've made Viserys' reign 2 seasons long.

I agree.

I said this from the beginning that this was a mistake.

 

[lakin1013]

17 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I was surprised to see this, but it may be due to how HBO Max crashed during the premiere:

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-episode-2-ratings-viewers-1235352102/

I do wonder if HOTD has a slightly older audience than GOT did, simply because the online community feels much less robust this time.

Why do you feel that the audience is older?  I think it may not be because so many people got into GoT late, had not read the books, and when they watched they were behind and confused.  Now, younger viewers may flock to get in on the ground floor, so to speak, and not comment publicly because of how some early GoT posters were responded to.  I saw many innocents post innocent questions about Got (like why is his last name Snow) and they got the -- read the book or don't you know -- or are you kidding? type of response.  Perhaps the once burned type of thing....

[Crona]

I feel like they made a mistake with Alicent and Viserys marriage, I don’t understand what the rush was to remarry. They could have done it where it’s been 6 months since Alicent visits him and the entire kingdom knows and started making rumors making Corlys, Daemon, Otto and Rhaenyra angry. They could have also focused on the Hightowers being powerful too and had other houses offer their daughter’s for marriage. Idk it was just weird they were only focusing on Laena being viable.

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Why do you feel that the audience is older?  I think it may not be because so many people got into GoT late, had not read the books, and when they watched they were behind and confused.  Now, younger viewers may flock to get in on the ground floor, so to speak, and not comment publicly because of how some early GoT posters were responded to.  I saw many innocents post innocent questions about Got (like why is his last name Snow) and they got the -- read the book or don't you know -- or are you kidding? type of response.  Perhaps the once burned type of thing....

The fandom around HOTD just feels smaller this time, despite the high viewership numbers, which makes me wonder if the audience skews towards older viewers who are less likely to use social media. Or it might just mean that fans are less enthralled with HOTD than they were with GOT. I think most people would say that they still prefer GOT at this point.

[BlackLightning]

All in all, I thought it was a good episode.

I think the people complaining about the lack of humor and lightheartedness are a sign of the times. I think Martin Scorsese was right when he said that Marvel is not only not cinema but it is ruining the art. We need to realize that movie and TV dramas are just that...dramas. They are supposed be serious through-and-through. There's nothing funny or lighthearted about an intergenerational political conflict that is about to explode into all-out war.

And please stop citing Game of Thrones in reference to humor. Seriously. The last line in what should've been the best television show of all time was a corny penis joke that only middle school boys would laugh at.

And the first episode was lighthearted...up until the death of Aemma and Baelon. The royal family is clearly still grieving. Why shou

 

That being said, I think the show would've been better off having Mushroom around. But not necessarily because of the humor. And we didn't have to make him a dwarf...

On 8/28/2022 at 9:14 PM, C.T. Phipps said:

I actually like how utterly unromantic it's being made. Viserys ISNT that interested in Alicent but he's sure as shit less viscerally disgusted (I keep needing to use that word) at a sexual relationship with her than Laena.

So she's a compromise candidate.

That was not a compromise.

Compromise doesn't alienate two of the single most powerful and important people at court and confuse a few others in one fell swoop.

One of the two is so alienated that it is "implied" that he is plotting treason.

23 hours ago, Fez said:

Yeah. Anyone who thinks Benioff is a simple hack needs to read his novels and short stories; he's a legit talented writer in his own right. There's a reason HBO wanted to work with him and had reached out about what ideas he might have for a show before the GoT stuff came together. It sure seems like burnout got to him eventually, but there's a lot of great stuff in the early seasons that was all him (/and Weiss, I don't know as much about his talent); like the Cersei/Robert conversation in S1.

 You mean the guy who said that themes are for 8th grade book reports?

Yeah, he's hack writer that had been propped up by his daddy's money and connections.

23 hours ago, David Selig said:

Wasn't Rhaenys second in the voting for Jaeherys heir out of 14 claimants in the show meaning she got plenty of support ? Or am I misremembering the first episode?

No you're not.

She was second.

 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 minutes ago, Crona said:

I feel like they made a mistake with Alicent and Viserys marriage, I don’t understand what the rush was to remarry. They could have done it where it’s been 6 months since Alicent visits him and the entire kingdom knows and started making rumors making Corlys, Daemon, Otto and Rhaenyra angry. They could have also focused on the Hightowers being powerful too and had other houses offer their daughter’s for marriage. Idk it was just weird they were only focusing on Laena being viable.

As icky as it might feel, I really just think it’s a matter of Viserys being attracted to and wanting to start having an intimate relationship with Alicent.

As for Laena, I think that may be a matter of Corlys’ ambition getting the better of him. Like Otto, he wanted to plant the seed before anyone else cut him on line. Rhaenys pretty much tells Rhaenyra point-blank that she doesn’t like the possibility of her daughter getting married so young, so it was probably all her husband’s idea.

[Ran]

Benioff's 25th Hour, both the novel and the script he himself adapted for Spike Lee, are really excellent. He may have become a hack somewhere along the way, but the guy who was busting his ass getting those first three seasons out there was not one, even if he made missteps. 

A new show with all new characters, even if in the same setting, is going to take time to develop the very visible fandom you're expecting, IMO. People are still trying to feel out who they like and what the story is. I think the time jumps of this season may constrain things a bit for some, but I think once that comes to an end towards the end of the  season, there's going to be a real stir.

 

I will say that the traffic on Westeros.org these past two weeks has been the highest it's been since the end of Season 4 in 2014. Literally millions of people have visited the site since the premiere.

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

All in all, I thought it was a good episode.

I think the people complaining about the lack of humor and lightheartedness are a sign of the times. I think Martin Scorsese was right when he said that Marvel is not only not cinema but it is ruining the art. We need to realize that movie and TV dramas are just that...dramas. They are supposed be serious through-and-through. There's nothing funny or lighthearted about an intergenerational political conflict that is about to explode into all-out war.

And please stop citing Game of Thrones in reference to humor. Seriously. The last line in what should've been the best television show of all time was a corny penis joke that only middle school boys would laugh at.

And the first episode was lighthearted...up until the death of Aemma and Baelon. The royal family is clearly still grieving. Why shou

 

That being said, I think the show would've been better off having Mushroom around. But not necessarily because of the humor. And we didn't have to make him a dwarf...

That was not a compromise.

Compromise doesn't alienate two of the single most powerful and important people at court and confuse a few others in one fell swoop.

One of the two is so alienated that it is "implied" that he is plotting treason.

 You mean the guy who said that themes are for 8th grade book reports?

Yeah, he's hack writer that had been propped up by his daddy's money and connections.

No you're not.

She was second.

 

 

Most HBO dramas have some kind of dark humor/dry wit, and this was long before Marvel came around. The example I like to use is Six Feet Under, which was about a family-run funeral home and began each episode by showing the death of the person who they were burying. But they found ways to bring levity in a manner that was appropriate. For instance, one of the deaths was a baker who fell into a giant blender. Another was a porn star talking to her cat in the bathtub about a date she went on, only for the cat to accidentally knock her hairdryer into the tub and electrocute her. Yet another involved a woman getting hit by a car after seeing floating sex dolls that she thought were angels (I really could not possibly explain this scene in a way that does it justice). All of these deaths were horrific while also being somewhat funny. And then, of course, there were plenty of deaths that were completely serious.

[David Selig]

21 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think the people complaining about the lack of humor and lightheartedness are a sign of the times. I think Martin Scorsese was right when he said that Marvel is not only not cinema but it is ruining the art. We need to realize that movie and TV dramas are just that...dramas. They are supposed be serious through-and-through. There's nothing funny or lighthearted about an intergenerational political conflict that is about to explode into all-out war.

IIRC there are humorous moments in most of Scorsese's serious dramas. You can have a serious drama and still have some humorous moments without that ruining the drama. The Wire is the best TV drama ever made yet it has plenty of funny moments. Mad Men has its fair share of humour. Etc, etc.

Edited August 30, 2022 by David Selig

[BlackLightning]

I am not a fan of what they have done with the ages of the characters.

They are whitewashing Alicent by making her younger. They are whitewashing Viserys by making Laena both younger and not-yet a dragonrider. Granted, the fact that Viserys spurned the dragonrider Laena in favor of Alicent in the books was insane so I guess they're trying to fix it by giving Viserys a valid reason.

But why Alicent? He's marrying a girl his daughter's age for what reason again? Book-Viserys at least can say that he married Alicent because he was in love. But Show-Viserys clearly doesn't love her. If he has to marry, he can marry someone/anyone else.

In any case, Alicent and Viserys (and even Otto to a certain extent) are being whitewashed and I don't like it.

The only redeeming quality of the agebending is how they are using it as a framing device for how/why Alicent and Rhaenyra stopped talking to each other.

12 minutes ago, Ran said:

Benioff's 25th Hour, both the novel and the script he himself adapted for Spike Lee, are really excellent. He may have become a hack somewhere along the way, but the guy who was busting his ass getting those first three seasons out there was not one, even if he made missteps. 

 

*shrugs*

Yeah okay. So he made a good book. And? Broken clocks are not always wrong and one bad apple doesn't always spoil the bunch.

I said what I said. He's still a hack writer. Troy was not a good movie and Wolverine: Origins is easily one of the worst (as in most incoherent, most overstuffed and jumbled) superhero movies of all time. And these were made shortly after 25th Hour...

And 25th Hour is not even a good example. It has a very small cast. Troy, Wolverine, GoT, etc. all had multiple moving pieces. If he can't manage multiple moving pieces and was fortunate enough to produce a strong story at one point...and still has the nerve to say the things he said about literature and screenwriting and production, then it's safe to say that he's probably always been a hack at some level.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by BlackLightning

[The hairy bear]

On 8/29/2022 at 5:33 PM, David Selig said:

Wasn't Rhaenys second in the voting for Jaeherys heir out of 14 claimants in the show meaning she got plenty of support ? Or am I misremembering the first episode?

32 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

No you're not.

She was second.

In the books, the voting is only between Rhaenys and Viserys. The other claimants had been eliminated before the final vote:

The Great Council deliberated for thirteen days. The tenuous claims of nine lesser competitors were considered and discarded (...). Archmaester Vaegon was ruled out on account of his vows and Princess Rhaenys and her daughter on account of their sex, leaving the two claimants with the most support. (...) By a lopsided margin, the lords assembled chose Viserys Targaryen as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Though the maesters who tallied the votes never revealed the actual numbers, it was said afterward that the vote had been more than twenty to one.

I've never believed the 20 to 1 result (my conspiracy theory is that the numbers where very close and maesters lied). But in any case, the official history is that even if she technical came second, she suffered a resounding defeat.

 

20 minutes ago, Ran said:

I will say that the traffic on Westeros.org these past two weeks has been the highest it's been since the end of Season 4 in 2014. Literally millions of people have visited the site since the premiere.

That's very interesting. The number of posts/users doesn't seem to have increased that amount. Are there really millions of lurkers reading our ramblings?!

Edited August 30, 2022 by The hairy bear