[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[Mithras]

22 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

The books take on polygamy is very strange indeed incest is fine but not polygamy.

That is a misconception.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The humor wars continue!

https://collider.com/house-of-the-dragon-could-take-itself-less-seriously/

"Lest we forget, Game of Thrones achieved its landmark success despite its infamously dense (and unapologetically geeky) source material".

I guess a succession conflict is too geeky for the soccer moms out there.

 

[Rippounet]

I've watched two episodes now, and the one thing I really ask myself is "where the fuck is Mushroom?"

Ok, I can guess why they chose not to include him: not politically correct (though that could have been subverted methinks), too close to GoT (with Otto having this Tywin-vibe and Rhaenyra the Daenerys-vibe), and mayhaps because they didn't want to pit any young actor for comparison with Dinklage.
Also, I guess Mushroom would have quickly made the entire show revolve around him (being more honest, interesting, and astute than all other characters), stealing every single scene he appeared in (which, funnily enough, would be the kind of thing the character would claim).

But Mushroom's absence is what makes this show so serious and ponderous.
Also, without any solid point of inside-world reference, I'm not sure which character the viewer is supposed to love or root for, or how the viewer is supposed to view what's going on. I get that they don't want to make the "sides" too obvious from the first, but I think it may make the story/plot a bit confusing for show-only viewers.

[Crixus]

21 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

As soon as they announced Mysaria’s casting last year, I knew there’d be backlash. It wouldn’t matter if she had a heart of gold; she’s a sex worker, and for some people, that’s all they can focus on. There’ll all but certainly be backlash for “burying your gays” as well.

Agreed. And we know she won't have a heart of gold as least as per Maester Gyldayn, so expect a lot more backlash regarding the White Worm. 'Burying your gays' - are you referring to Laenor V? I expect we will see some of this. 

[Colonel Green]

42 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Also, I guess Mushroom would have quickly made the entire show revolve around him (being more honest, interesting, and astute than all other characters), stealing every single scene he appeared in (which, funnily enough, would be the kind of thing the character would claim).

Mushroom’s only relevance in F&B is that he eventually writes a memoir of the stuff he saw. There’s no reason a court fool would be included in the series, he has no importance to the story.

42 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Also, without any solid point of inside-world reference, I'm not sure which character the viewer is supposed to love or root for, or how the viewer is supposed to view what's going on. I get that they don't want to make the "sides" too obvious from the first, but I think it may make the story/plot a bit confusing for show-only viewers.

Can viewers not make up their own minds about the characters?

[cock_merchant]

#Justice4Mushroom

[Frey family reunion]

On 8/29/2022 at 6:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

The Velaryons and Targaryens should look alike if they share a certain 'magical bloodline'.

Not necessarily, even though I really wish the show would address the issue.  I think GRRM has set up the fact that the  gold/silver hair and purple eyes are not necessarily ancillary to the bloodline that allows Targaryens to bond with dragons.  Nettles, the "Strongs", Brown Ben Plumm, ect are all clues that you don't need a traditional Targaryen look to be a dragon rider.

Personally, I think the relevation that the seafaring nature of the Velaryons makes them more likely than their Targaryen cousins to interact with cultures outside of Westeros, which occassionally leads to an outside marriage (such as with a high born Summer Islander), would add to the idea of Corlys being a bit of an outsider to some of the Lords of Westeros which in turn might have caused Rhaenys to lose support.

[slant]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

I've watched two episodes now, and the one thing I really ask myself is "where the fuck is Mushroom?"

I was looking out for him too. IK the announcer at the tourney was not a dwarf, but maybe he was Mushroom?

Look, it's just about possible because the midget Tyrion became a dwarf on screen, so kind-of not really makes sense that a dwarf is regular sized. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

50 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Mushroom’s only relevance in F&B is that he eventually writes a memoir of the stuff he saw. There’s no reason a court fool would be included in the series, he has no importance to the story.

Didn't Ryan Condal say that there would be some references to Mushroom later on? Maybe a cameo or something like that.

[Rippounet]

23 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

There’s no reason a court fool would be included in the series, he has no importance to the story.

The point was that the show lacks comic relief, but Mushroom also happens to give important advice at key moments (more than once iirc).

23 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Can viewers not make up their own minds about the characters?

Sure, but then the show really becomes about the complex politics of a fantasy monarchy, which means the plot needs to be exciting in its own right. So far... I'm not sure.
It seems to me that they've used gore porn, boobs & ass, and dramatic music added to key dialogue (to make it momentous or ominous) to pretend it's exciting, but the reality is that it hasn't been. The first two episodes can be summed up as "tensions at court," and that's about it. There were 2 or 3 great scenes, but the show hasn't really begun.
To be fair, adapting the Dance is quite a challenge, as they need to introduce lots of characters and establish a lot of rules/elements, and they're managing well so far, with the next episode supposedly providing more action and less talk.
But as someone wrote earlier (in this thread or the previous one), the entire setup is too serious and too tense. This is still a time of peace, and yet it's hard to discern any joy (at court or elsewhere).
That's a minor flaw imho, because it undermines the tragic aspect of the Dance. A bit more happiness (at least until the Queen died) would really have helped.
 

3 minutes ago, slant said:

Look, it's just about possible because the midget Tyrion became a dwarf on screen, so kind-of not really makes sense that a dwarf is regular sized.

I'd be on board with that.

[karaddin]

On 8/30/2022 at 10:09 PM, Crixus said:

Also, I personally did not get any romantic vibes between Alicent and Rhaenyra - they seemed like close friends and confidantes. It's almost as if 2 friends can't have a moment of affection without people labelling it as romance or queer-baiting. I wouldn't be surprised if some viewers think Rhaenyra is jealous of Viserys/Alicent because she's in love with Alicent.... sigh. 

Haven't caught up to the thread past here, but I wanted to chime in and say I absolutely parsed Rhaenyra as having a teen crush on Alicent, but didn't think there was any indication it was reciprocated. I don't think its jealousy however, rather the betrayal of doing this with the one friend she had without even giving her a heads up first - that seems entirely reasonable as something to drive a wedge there.

And Viserys absolutely was cowardly but in a way that's very real and relatable, I don't damn him for it but it was a mistake.

[butterweedstrover]

Mushroom would be completely and his jokes lame. 
 

Also, humor can be situational, ironic, or introduced by clever editing to pronounce something obvious the characters can’t tell. 
 

You don’t need a clown, just a show willing to let up on the self serious politics which is just not happening so far.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

I absolutely parsed Rhaenyra as having a teen crush on Alicent

Not over here, not at all.

[zajaz]

On the topic of Mushroom: speaking for myself, he will not be missed. I bet that if he were a character created or written by D&D people would have hated him to death. May you and your big cock rest in the darkest pit of the Seven Hells.

Edited August 31, 2022 by zajaz

[The Bard of Banefort]

I can’t believe this show is making me defend Alicent Hightower. Apparently getting pimped out to an old man by your father is a worse betrayal than the Red Wedding.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/alicent-s-house-of-the-dragon-betrayal-is-worse-than-anything-in-got/ar-AA11jd6T?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=630f984b81a041dbb4d289f8b979529a&fbclid=IwAR0L7-nFDgvOODxkBh3SnFKehNFu03euHCK-WVvXWKFynwzgdkSMp_xvO3s

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Not necessarily, even though I really wish the show would address the issue.  I think GRRM has set up the fact that the  gold/silver hair and purple eyes are not necessarily ancillary to the bloodline that allows Targaryens to bond with dragons.  Nettles, the "Strongs", Brown Ben Plumm, ect are all clues that you don't need a traditional Targaryen look to be a dragon rider.

Personally, I think the relevation that the seafaring nature of the Velaryons makes them more likely than their Targaryen cousins to interact with cultures outside of Westeros, which occassionally leads to an outside marriage (such as with a high born Summer Islander), would add to the idea of Corlys being a bit of an outsider to some of the Lords of Westeros which in turn might have caused Rhaenys to lose support.

The way the show pulls it, though, the silver hair indicates that the Velaryons and Targaryens are very much closely related. That's why they have that hair, it makes them Valyrian. How it goes that you have closely related folk who share this hair which isn't that much of a dominant trait (as all the Targaryens and dragonriders prove who don't look that way) while they have different skin tones is kind of confusing.

Even more so the idea that such a match is going to strengthen the royal bloodline and keeping it pure.

I mean, the show take on the Velaryons isn't that some outsider Summer Islander, etc. marriage introduced dark skin into their bloodline ... but that some Valyrian nobles simply are black, have always been black, and some retain their dark skin through the centuries.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I can’t believe this show is making me defend Alicent Hightower. Apparently getting pimped out to an old man by your father is a worse betrayal than the Red Wedding.

The funny thing is that they don't even elaborate on that claim. The text just ends abruptly.

[zajaz]

I would actually laugh outloud if this season actually makes people to feel equal amounts of sympathy towards Alicent than towards Rhaenyra. I would be kinda sad (but also morbidly funny) if the overall viewership becomes evenly divided into Black stans and Green stans. With that being said, I would just grab some popcorn and watch the flame war that season 2 will be...

[Lord Varys]

Mushroom literally has no place in the scenes we saw so far. In how many scenes in ASoIaF did Moon Boy feature so far? Not very much. The idea that a court jester is there at council session, private royal dinners, etc. is very far-fetched. Mushroom may have overheard some private conversations of the royals ... although then in a not-so-private setting. The idea that you have a lackwit fool attend you while you have sex or plot murders or coups, etc. is ludicrous.

They could have him during Rhaenyra's wedding or some other great court feast as the court jester entertaining the crowd, just I guess we might see Eustace if they ever feel like including some royal have a conversation with a septon. Aegon II's coronation should including him being anointed, and the septon doing that should be Eustace.

9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I can’t believe this show is making me defend Alicent Hightower. Apparently getting pimped out to an old man by your father is a worse betrayal than the Red Wedding.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/alicent-s-house-of-the-dragon-betrayal-is-worse-than-anything-in-got/ar-AA11jd6T?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=630f984b81a041dbb4d289f8b979529a&fbclid=IwAR0L7-nFDgvOODxkBh3SnFKehNFu03euHCK-WVvXWKFynwzgdkSMp_xvO3s

LOL, it is kind of silly to reconstruct this as 'a seduction'. What we saw were nice conversations, and while Viserys seemed to enjoy them to a point, he never appears to actually sexually or romantically desire Alicent.

I don't think 'pimp out' is a proper description of what happened there, either. There is nothing sexually going on, after all, at least to our knowledge, and somebody arranging things so that two people might spend time to getting is not 'pimping out' one of the parties.

In fact, the way the show depicts this kind of thing explains how the historical sources and the historians might come to the conclusion that something sexual may have been going on there, since to the people who are not Viserys and Otto/Alicent this came as a huge surprise ... but it is just equally possible that nothing scandalous was going on there.

I mean, they clearly paint Alicent as somebody who he is pushed into a certain role there, she didn't seek this whole thing out actively, merely ends up flying with it because she likes Viserys.

[Daeron the Daring]

3 minutes ago, zajaz said:

I would actually laugh outloud if this season actually makes people to feel equal amounts of sympathy towards Alicent than towards Rhaenyra. I would be kinda sad (but also morbidly funny) if the overall viewership becomes evenly divided into Black stans and Green stans. With that being said, I would just grab some popcorn and watch the flame war that season 2 will be...

I assume they will bait the people with making the Greens less sympathetic first, then later on, when people get unleashed on both sides, we'll get some good characters from the Green side (Daeron, Helaena) to make the stuff even. Plus, I imagine they won't keep Rhaenyra and Daemon innocent during the Dance. 

A major turning point could be Maelor's death. I think we'll se how that is the consequence of not even infants being safe when shit begins to fall from the sky, and that both sides are responsible for that. That being said, Black supporters will overwhelm Green ones. This could stop being a thing thou, if there'll be a Daeron-Rhaena/Baela romance and if Jaehaera doesn't get killed by Unwin Peake in the show.