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[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion


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58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, the show take on the Velaryons isn't that some outsider Summer Islander, etc. marriage introduced dark skin into their bloodline ... but that some Valyrian nobles simply are black, have always been black, and some retain their dark skin through the centuries.

Which I find not remotely noteworthy nor particularly worthy of comment.

But even assuming it was, I'm not sure what there really is to comment on that won't result in circles. This is the fact the show has chosen to present that there is/was a Valyrian house of black descent.

It's not going to change, its pretty foundational to the story they're telling, and the actors are capable.

So, what's left to discuss about it?

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20 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

They used dwarfs on Joffrey's wedding too.

I think if they did Mushroom, they should have done him as a court event commentator. While that would remove the idea Mushroom was simple, I think it would be kind of fascinating to have him as a kind of Jon Stewart comedian the king listens to. Full of salacious gossip and jests.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, the show take on the Velaryons isn't that some outsider Summer Islander, etc. marriage introduced dark skin into their bloodline ... but that some Valyrian nobles simply are black, have always been black, and some retain their dark skin through the centuries.

When did the show establish that?  Were there interviews or something? 

Either way, I don't see a substantive difference from say, the Arryn's bloodline being introduced and being "unpure" to however the Velaryon's became a different skin tone.  Still doesn't change the fact that Aemma and Laena are more desirable because of the "pure" aspects of their bloodline.

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4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think if they did Mushroom, they should have done him as a court event commentator. While that would remove the idea Mushroom was simple, I think it would be kind of fascinating to have him as a kind of Jon Stewart comedian the king listens to. Full of salacious gossip and jests.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not missing Mushroom at all, I was just making a point.

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Only two scenes with trees in them.

Action starts outside of Kings Landing. We see some pine, with a good bark shot right behind King Viserys, possibly poplar. I think we see some lime as well.

In the next scene, Viserys talks to Lhaena, and the strictures of routine marriage arrangements in noble houses are underlined by the trimmed hedge surrounding the two human characters, where the unnatural cultivation of arboreal life – strict hedges interspersed with phallically trimmed cypresses – is meant to make viewers empathise with the unnatural plight of the old king and his prospective child bride, forever curtailing their natural inclinations to the will of oppressive structures. This foreshadows the the neo-Marxist theme of the Daemon–Mysaria scene; a scene that – alas – simply doesn’t work, mainly because of autopilot dialogue right out of a 21st century woke activist amateur production and atrociously bad acting. So far this show manages to handle the arboreal parts with more finesse than directing humans.

Not so much as shrubbery on dragonstone. Missed opportunity, or thematically significant? The next episodes will tell. 

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

When did the show establish that?  Were there interviews or something? 

Either way, I don't see a substantive difference from say, the Arryn's bloodline being introduced and being "unpure" to however the Velaryon's became a different skin tone.  Still doesn't change the fact that Aemma and Laena are more desirable because of the "pure" aspects of their bloodline.

I think there's a certain level of brain twitching going on that they have to now adjust their view of the Targaryens that they might well have been mixed race.

And there's a bunch of black and white people with white hair in former Valyrian freeholds.

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1 minute ago, Happy Ent said:

This foreshadows the the neo-Marxist theme of the Daemon–Mysaria scene; a scene that – alas – simply doesn’t work, mainly because of autopilot dialogue right out of a 21st century woke activist amateur production and atrociously bad acting. So far this show manages to handle the arboreal parts with more finesse than directing humans.


Not so much as shrubbery on dragonstone. Missed opportunity, or thematically significant? The next episodes will tell. 

I feel Neo-Marxist is far less appropriate than an Atwoodian feminist analysis of power dynamics. Mysaria has attempted to find a powerful man to protect herself but his games still threaten her.

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25 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

A major turning point could be Maelor's death.

While Maelor's death clearly is going to the most gruesome episode in the entire show ... I don't see how the audience is going to lay the blame for that at Rhaenyra's or Daemon's or anyone's feet. It is freakish episode, involving greedy and stupid people none of whom are acting on Rhaenyra's command or anything of that sort.

This certainly might be one of the episodes where the cost and madness of the war comes ever more apparent, but I don't think it is really going to harm 'the Black cause', if you will, because for that we would need to have Rhaenyra's loyalists actually command and commit atrocities in her name.

If they are smart, we they are going to kind of make Daeron's story - and the story of Lord Ormund's army - into a kind of well-crafted parallel to the decline and corruption of the Brotherhood without Banners. We could see them start as more or less perfect knights, intending to only restore the peace in the Realm, only to slowly descend into the barbarism of Tumbleton.

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17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

While Maelor's death clearly is going to the most gruesome episode in the entire show ... I don't see how the audience is going to lay the blame for that at Rhaenyra's or Daemon's or anyone's feet. It is freakish episode, involving greedy and stupid people none of whom are acting on Rhaenyra's command or anything of that sort.

This certainly might be one of the episodes where the cost and madness of the war comes ever more apparent, but I don't think it is really going to harm 'the Black cause', if you will, because for that we would need to have Rhaenyra's loyalists actually command and commit atrocities in her name.

If they are smart, we they are going to kind of make Daeron's story - and the story of Lord Ormund's army - into a kind of well-crafted parallel to the decline and corruption of the Brotherhood without Banners. We could see them start as more or less perfect knights, intending to only restore the peace in the Realm, only to slowly descend into the barbarism of Tumbleton.

I meant that Maelor will be the time viewers realize what this war means, and that both sides are willing to do it, and how stupid is that. I suppose there will be stans who won't back down from staning, but others who even fanboy/fangirl around either the Blacks or the Greens, but think through what they see on the screen, realise that it's not gonna be a sweet victory, even if it is one. At some point, I think factionalism will stop being important to viewers. I hope, at least. 

 Off-topic: Bro, I swear to God, I can't stand the HOTD ads. They're everywhere.

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5 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I meant that Maelor will be the time viewers realize what this war means, and that both sides are willing to do it, and how stupid is that. I suppose there will be stans who won't back down from staning, but others who even fanboy/fangirl around either the Blacks or the Greens, but think through what they see on the screen, realise that it's not gonna be a sweet victory, even if it is one. At some point, I think factionalism will stop being important to viewers. I hope, at least. 

 Off-topic: Bro, I swear to God, I can't stand the HOTD ads. They're everywhere.

Basically, the two dead children are the point there will be no ending but one side completely destroyed.

I don't think it will reduce factionalism, though.

I think people will be, "All Freys must die."

 

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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45 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I feel Neo-Marxist is far less appropriate than an Atwoodian feminist analysis of power dynamics […]

Huh. Good point – at the danger of completely derailing this thread: I haven’t read Atwood in this millennium, and never much secondary literature or commentary. Honest question: Is the theme of liberation (in the neo-Marxist sense – liberation from vectors oppression, here from fear) this explicitly present in Atwood? (I can absolutely see how that’s a valid reading of Handmaid, so I’m not questioning that such a reading makes sense.) Yes/no/link answer suffices.

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8 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

Huh. Good point – at the danger of completely derailing this thread: I haven’t read Atwood in this millennium, and never much secondary literature or commentary. Honest question: Is the theme of liberation (in the neo-Marxist sense – liberation from vectors oppression, here from fear) this explicitly present in Atwood? (I can absolutely see how that’s a valid reading of Handmaid, so I’m not questioning that such a reading makes sense.) Yes/no/link answer suffices.

I think so, yes. Also the explicitness that attaching yourself to a male protector is kind of self-defeating.

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1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Which I find not remotely noteworthy nor particularly worthy of comment.

But even assuming it was, I'm not sure what there really is to comment on that won't result in circles. This is the fact the show has chosen to present that there is/was a Valyrian house of black descent.

It's not going to change, its pretty foundational to the story they're telling, and the actors are capable.

So, what's left to discuss about it?

Why do you keep really insisting “so nothing to discuss”?

I even agree “some Valyrian families were just black “ could work - due to all the inbreeding they’re like different tribes that didn’t intermingle.

but there is further discussion; ok, was Jaehaerys’s mother still Alyssa Velaryon in the TV version and was she black?  They…seem to say she wasn’t his mother. Which is fine, that’s internally consistent.

Edited by The Dragon Demands
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There is a difference between provoking and pandering, and often the same material/content can do both. It is a very delicate tasks with no agreed upon rules. There are some things that can be written and published easily but are challenging to show on screen. It is not surprising that these things are clumsily handled. 

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6 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Why do you keep really insisting “so nothing to discuss”?

I even agree “some Valyrian families were just black “ could work - due to all the inbreeding they’re like different tribes that didn’t intermingle.

but there is further discussion; ok, was Jaehaerys’s mother still Alyssa Velaryon in the TV version and was she black?

I suppose it's apropos with your username, but it seems overly-demanding to insist the show clarifies the ethnicity/skin tone of Viserys' great-grandmother.  Like, has she even been mentioned in the show yet?

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I'm 99% certain that when Laena says to Viserys to join their houses as they were in Old Valyria, this means Valaena Velaryon and Alyssa Velaryon, and any other Velaryon marriages to Targaryens between the Doom and Aegon and his sisters, have been removed and replaced with Targaryen sisters (or Celtigars or Qoherys or Valyrians from the Free City).

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So we are still watching this because sister is ill and moody and wanted to watch it. And why not, it should do fine as a background noise while we have dinner. BAD IDEA. Don’t attempt to consume food during this show. Why is gratuitous bodily decay a more elevated creative choice than gratuitous nudity or sex? 

We both found the episode profoundly boring. I cannot find a hook for my life, there’s virtually nothing in this show to reach my stimulus  threshold. It’s a deja vu loop in which everything feels like I’ve seen it before. I especially hate the wigs and hairstyles. The plot is predictable, the characters are flat and bland, the dialogue is poor. The themes are handled and delivered with the grace and subtlety of a T-Rex in New York. Zero thought or logic goes into putting scenes together which manifests in predictability, no payoff and lost opportunity for tension, character development and stakes. Long politically infused monologues won’t make me sympathize with characters I don’t know, it won’t make me know them, it won’t make me like them and it won’t make me care about them.

Imagine if Daemon didn’t bring his woman AND his egg to the meeting, for which he had absolutely no motive whatsoever. Especially if he lied about a pregnancy, which he wouldn’t want discovered otherwise why lie in the first place. Who would believe that he brings his allegedly pregnant bride to a meeting with a hostile representative which is believed to easily result in bloodshed - this was after all Rhaenyra’s argument for getting involved - ending up with his bride as collateral. Wouldn’t this be something to bring up in conversation if he did bring his bride to expose Daemon for a less clever leader than he shows himself to be rather than yelling profanities and insults at each other? and if we are at dialogues, Wouldn’t Otto or Viserys question Rhaenyra’s true motive for going and by proxy her maturity, instead of cowering before her strong female badassery? Wouldn’t this support the opinion that she is still young and has a lot to learn better than smug and emptily sexist remarks to shut down her ideas in council? Or is this not something we want to establish for real? Is it only the misconception of old males and Rhaenyra is a ready made ruler who is already better at ruling than Viserys and better at machiavellianism that Otto and better at riding a dragon than Daemon?  

As for not bringing the egg, an easy resolution couldn’t have happened because you can’t retrieve something that isn’t at hand. You can however certainly bargain and win time if you are necessary to produce a missing object. This is something a clever person would do or point out if a stupid person didn’t. It could have required a bit more finesse or struggle for Rhaenyra to get it which would have given the audience a tangible reason to root for her and which would have made the eventual success all the more valuable and deserved. Maybe, just maybe we would have had the time to get at least a tiny bit emotionally invested in the egg business or learn a bit more about Rhaenyra and Daemon via choices and action in the situation rather than a badly written dialogue. Maybe Rhaenyra could have had losses (literal or figurative) retrieving the egg, so she would have a moment for development. 

It was probably even clumsier however to have Alicent in the marriage announcement scene. What is the Hand’s daughter, a woman doing in the small council meeting, when even the king’s daughter is only in attendance fulfilling the role of a cup bearer? Wouldn’t everybody ask why she’s there and wouldn’t her presence confirm to herself and to her father that she will be the chosen new queen? If the Hand’s daughter is allowed to randomly hang out at the small council meeting as the most natural thing without raising eyebrows, what are we even talking about marginalized women’s rights in this world? There’s no legitimate reason for Alicent to be in that scene, you can take her reaction shot in a different scene that makes sense and has more meaning for her as a character. And her presence also entirely invalidates the reactions of the other characters. And undermines their alleged values. It was a ridiculous nonsensical unsatisfactory mess. 

The actors do what they can with what little they are given. The dragons look cool. I really like that there’s a character called Laena. I also enjoyed the 10 second scene of Rhaenyra showing up at dragonstone and dismounting her dragon. Her conversation with the king about her mother was nice. There are valuable small details that build her character, such as asking to sit down while being chastised. 

Once again not a millimeter above 5 out of 10. 

Edited by RhaenysBee
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