[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[slant]

^black identified

Okay. Phew lot to unpack here, yes first of all Deamon's motivations are unclear. He wanted to provoke his brother, which is the interpretation that Viserys confirm. He is testing the boundaries of his cage like a velociraptor, is the best explanation of his behaviour that I can come up with.  

It can be boring. The crabs in the bodies can be educational, at least it hints at the real extremes that the pirates went into. they have the backing of historical accuracy there. There is a measure of theire braveness in how uncomfortable the directors can make people, but that is also looked upon as how satisfied you can make certain audiences. 

A cup bearer is a very elevated position, and not easily given to people in histories and mythologies, 

Another aspect of the social stratification that the show shows very clearly is just the class divides. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by slant

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Is it only the misconception of old males and Rhaenyra is a ready made ruler who is already better at ruling than Viserys and better at machiavellianism that Otto and better at riding a dragon than Daemon?  

Well, the show already demonstrated in the pilot she is the best (only?) person when it comes to dealing with Daemon.  Especially compared to Otto.

14 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

It was probably even clumsier however to have Alicent in the marriage announcement scene. What is the Hand’s daughter, a woman doing in the small council meeting, when even the king’s daughter is only in attendance fulfilling the role of a cup bearer? Wouldn’t everybody ask why she’s there and wouldn’t her presence confirm to herself and to her father that she will be the chosen new queen?

I mean..yeah.  The way I viewed that scene she was clearly there because of the announcement.  Which, I guess Corlys and Rhaenyra should have figured out immediately, but denial is a powerful thing.

[C.T. Phipps]

36 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'm 99% certain that when Laena says to Viserys to join their houses as they were in Old Valyria, this means Valaena Velaryon and Alyssa Velaryon, and any other Velaryon marriages to Targaryens between the Doom and Aegon and his sisters, have been removed and replaced with Targaryen sisters (or Celtigars or Qoherys or Valyrians from the Free City).

I think that people have made too much of that line because, well, they're ignoring that Laena's mother is Rhaenys Targaryen.

It's like people are ignoring her mother twenty yards away.

Their houses are already joined (and may have been so in the past) so its just a figure of speech that Laena, undoubtedly, doesn't understand anyway. She's just repeating what Corys said.

Edited August 31, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think that people have made too much of that line because, well, they're ignoring that Laena's mother is Rhaenys Targaryen.

I think the meaning is that no Targaryen lord/king has taken a Velaryon bride before the Doom, since there are two ways to join houses together in theory -- you send a daughter out, or you bring a daughter in. Since, as you say, Rhaenys is right there, covering the first step, her meaning is the second.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Ran

[RhaenysBee]

Just now, DMC said:

Well, the show already demonstrated in the pilot she is the best (only?) person when it comes to dealing with Daemon.  Especially compared to Otto.

That’s fine, but it doesn’t mean she should outtalk Daemon in every scene of conflict as it develops neither of them and makes for a boring story. The options are infinite: you can have Rhaenyra fail at outtalking Daemon for the simple reason that she’s young and doesn’t need to win all the time. You can have Rhaenyra fail in a different way, because maybe they both know she can outtalk Daemon but can she outfly him (imagine the visuals)? You can have Rhaenyra outtalk Daemon at some cost such as a promise of a different egg or Dragonstone itself or something Daemon wants which puts her at odds with Viserys (for real) and raises stakes. You can commit to building a sexual tension between Rhaenyra and Daemon to support her sway over him. You can have Rhaenyra outtalk Daemon but be outtalked by Otto or Viserys (for real, not by empty sexism). You can do anything that’s more interesting than tepid dialogue and repetition. 
 

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

mean..yeah.  The way I viewed that scene she was clearly there because of the announcement.  Which, I guess Corlys and Rhaenyra should have figured out immediately, but denial is a powerful thing.

anybody should have, or whoever was blind enough not to should have questioned why she was there. Or they could have had Laena in the scene too, which would have at least supported that it was a conscious choice of Viserys to have them there rather and kept the validity of the reactions of all characters involved. This way it was random and nonsensical, hurt the world building and the payoff of the scene.  

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

I think the meaning is that no Targaryen lord/king has taken a Velaryon bride before the Doom. That has nothing to do with Rhaenys marrying the Velaryon lord.

None of which is mentioned by joining their houses. Which, again, are already joined.

Certainly in the context that Velaryon is joined to Targaryen even if Targaryen is not joined to Velaryon.

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Ran]

Just now, C.T. Phipps said:

None of which is mentioned by joining their houses. Which, again, are already joined.

I'm not sure of your meaning. Laena is clearly asking Viserys to do something that hasn't happened since Old Valyria (pre-Doom). They are clearly not considering Corlys marrying Rhaenys to be that thing, ergo, the thing that hasn't happened is that a Velaryon woman has not married into the Targaryens since before the Doom. The Velaryons have recent Targaryen blood, but the Targaryens do not have recent Velaryon blood.

[C.T. Phipps]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'm not sure of your meaning. Laena is clearly asking Viserys to do something that hasn't happened since Old Valyria (pre-Doom). They are clearly not considering Corlys marrying Rhaenys to be that thing, ergo, the thing that hasn't happened is that a Velaryon woman has not married into the Targaryens since before the Doom. The Velaryons have recent Targaryen blood, but the Targaryens do not have recent Velaryon blood.

I mean, I'm literally saying that I believe that interpretation of them having no intermarriages is probably completely wrong and the idea it is a retcon is incorrect. Specifically by pointing out that there has been a very recent interrmarriage.

So my argument is, "No, that's not what she means at all."

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Daeron the Daring]

Alicent being there at the announcement is dumb. Okay.

Daemon bringing out Mysaria and the egg isn't. He did the whole thing for the sake of putting up a show, most likely only for Viserys.

Daemon in the end not using his leverage of having the egg is once again dumb, assuming he has a lust for power, not only attention.

In an ideal world, Viserys didn't bother dealing with Daemon occupying Dragonstone because hé didn't want to give him attention.

The show has a lot of flaws, but I don't see why should Rhaenyra fall on her face in her griefing period. She will make many mistakes very soon.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Daeron the Daring

[slant]

What is building between Rhaenyra and Daemon right now is just a tradition of gift giving. Daemon is showing very nicely how it starts. It is pretty ambiguous at the moment. The end is not necessarily how it is being depicted right now.

Both of them are clearly unaware of what is brewing and are immature, with too much power in their hands. 

Okay, the egg toss was also nonchalant. Yes, there has to be a deeper meaning to all of this. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by slant
more neurons fired

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

That’s fine, but it doesn’t mean she should outtalk Daemon in every scene of conflict as it develops neither of them and makes for a boring story.

I dunno, I think your general critique - that Rhaenyra is being portrayed as a little too perfect - if very fair, and likely to become an issue in the next few episodes.  However, I don't mind establishing her as the capable main character right now (especially because Milly Alcock's performance is my favorite part of the show thus far).  Further, her ability to deal with Daemon's petulance is something I very much enjoy and fits my headcanon.

16 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Or they could have had Laena in the scene too,

Well that woulda seemed cruel on Viserys' part -- and probably pissed Corlys off even more.  I get the general complaint that everybody should have rather instantly put two and two together for why Alicent was there, but I think this is a decidedly minor complaint that is ignoring the fact it's a TV show and they were just trying to most expediently set up the "surprise" and reaction shots.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

So my argument is, "No, that's not what she means at all."

 

Your argument is that Laena, parroting her father, is saying nonsense, which feels awfully weak. Corlys is supposed to be speaking nonsense too? Or she is messing up what her father actually said?

FWIW, there is more in the 5th episode which, IMO, supports my reading of it. We'll see if you agree!

 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

FWIW, there is more in the 5th episode which, IMO, supports my reading of it. We'll see if you agree!

Fair enough...cheater.

Was gonna say that taking what Laena said as confirmation there were no Velaryon mothers in the Targ family tree since the Doom sounds like jumping to conclusions to me.

[C.T. Phipps]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

Your argument is that Laena, parroting her father, is saying nonsense, which feels awfully weak. Corlys is supposed to be speaking nonsense too? Or she is messing up what her father actually said?

FWIW, there is more in the 5th episode which, IMO, supports my reading of it. We'll see if you agree!

Well in which case I will admit I was wrong. *bows head*

[EggBlue]

26 minutes ago, Ran said:

FWIW, there is more in the 5th episode which, IMO, supports my reading of it. We'll see if you agree!

 

that's not fair ! we can't argue with you! I was just going to support C.T's argument on this

[C.T. Phipps]

10 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

that's not fair ! we can't argue with you! I was just going to support C.T's argument on this

I'd love to hear your argument anyway since the above mentioning of future material is ILLEGAL UNDER THE FORUM RULES.

*THUNDERCLAP*

Edited August 31, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[DMC]

Rewatching that scene, it's interesting that one could view Laena's two sentences as confirmation both on Velaryon mothers and the Velaryon's always having darker skin:

Quote

Your grace, it would be a great honor to join our houses as they were in old Valyria.  I would give you many children with pure Valyrian blood so that we might strengthen the royal line and the realm.

Alternatively, since this is a sales pitch and recitation, one could view the emphasis on old Valyria as Corlys and/or Rhaenys thinking that was the best way to persuade Viserys due to his fondness of history (especially that history).  It fits with her starting off the conversation by asking about Balerion.  Moreover, "as they were in old Valyria" is not prohibitive IMO - that doesn't preclude the possibility of female Velaryon matches since the Doom.  

The bolded suggests the Velaryon indeed have always had darker skin (or at least some of them have), as "pure Valyrian blood" could be interpreted as a rejection of the notion a recent Lord Velaryon took a Summer Islander etc. wife.  OTOH, it could just be a general boast even if there was such a wife - I'm sure Viserys would refer to Rhaenyra as having "pure Valyrian blood" despite her Arryn maternal grandfather.

Anyway, don't mean to belabor the point, just got into it and this is my idea of fun.

[Lord Varys]

The unintentionallly fun part about Laena talking about 'pure Valyrian blood' is the fact that black Valyrians and white Valyrians wouldn't be that closely related, especially in Old Valyria were both families likely preferred to marry their own sisters and cousins rather than intermarrying with each other on a grand(er) scale. You have to keep in mind that their incest customs would have made matches between the actual dragonlord houses pretty rare, since a marriage within one's family was viewed as ideal. And one imagines that dragonlords first looked for a match among other dragonlords before considering matches with lower nobility like the dragonless Velaryons.

The reason the Velaryons get so many Targaryen matches in the first century and later on isn't because their own Valyrian blood is that special ... but because they have Targaryen blood due to Targaryens marrying into House Velaryon prior to the Conquest. Alyssa Velaryon is chosen as bride for Aegon's heir because she is the next best thing in absence of a Targaryen sister, aunt, or cousin. And Jocelyn Baratheon is allowed to marry Jaehaerys' heir because she inherited the blood of the dragon both from her great-grandfather Orys Baratheon (presumably, at least) and from her mother Alyssa Velaryon.

(One imagines that the striking weirdness of the later Stormlander matches in the Targaryen family tree also goes back to the fact that the Penroses and Dondarrions gained some Targaryen blood, making them cousins, either via Alyn-Baela's daughter Laena Velaryon (or another daughter they might have), or via one of the six daughter of Garmund Hightower and Rhaena. Especially the Penroses are shown favor beyond anything that seems reasonable considering the background of that family. Princess Elaena takes Ronnel Penrose as second husband, and Aelinor Penrose ends up as the queen of King Aerys I.)

So what is the point of them both having Valyrian blood if it apparently isn't the same blood? Because the dragonlords don't just want to marry folks who come from the same place/city, they do want to marry folks who also have the blood of the dragon. Something the Velaryons actually wouldn't have to a high degree or not at all if they didn't intermarry with Targaryens or other dragonlords in the past. As Corlys himself says, they never were dragonlords, so why bother with them?

While the whole thing seems to imply the Velaryons are a black Valyrian family in the sense that they always were and always will remain black (magically, one imagines) ... they don't necessarily have to stick with that.

If they want to keep Alyssa Velaryon as King Aenys' wife they could go with that, perhaps by making her a member of lighter-skinned cadet branch of House Velaryon, or even going with the Summer Islander idea, giving Daemon or Corwyn Velaryon or both a dark-skinned wife. That way, all the Velaryons we see in the show could be dark-skinned without this being how they have always looked.

The Summer Islander idea isn't that bad - Corlys' mother or grandmother having Summer Islander ties could both help explain his desire to become an explorer (because she could have told him about all the maps and discoveries the Summer Islanders made, telling him about places nobody in Westeros has ever heard of) as well as helping him to build his famous ships.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Alicent being there at the announcement is dumb. Okay.

Technically, yes, but I imagine Viserys just called Otto and Alicent to the council chamber early to tell them first that he would marry her. When Viserys looks into the chamber in that scene when the people enter, we don't see Alicent but Otto is already there, sitting at the table, only the other lords and Rhaenyra enter the chamber.

And while it is likely not that often the case that Alicent is at council meeting, it wouldn't be that unheard of, either, considering she is the daughter of the Hand.

[C.T. Phipps]

Quote

So what is the point of them both having Valyrian blood if it apparently isn't the same blood? Because the dragonlords don't just want to marry folks who come from the same place/city, they do want to marry folks who also have the blood of the dragon. Something the Velaryons actually wouldn't have to a high degree or not at all if they didn't intermarry with Targaryens or other dragonlords in the past. As Corlys himself says, they never were dragonlords, so why bother with them?

I mean, the Velayrons aren't dragon lords until fairly late into the business so it was, in fact, them marrying the Velaryons just because they're the only other Roman family in the neighborhood.

[zajaz]

So, I don't know what information some of you may have, but if (and only if) it ends up being confirmed that in the show universe the Velaryons always have had darker skin compared to that of the the Targaryens, that could lead one to the conclusion the Valaena and Alyssa have been erased or turned into Targaryens instead of Velaryons. If such conclusion were to prove correct, I'm assuming GRRM was okay with that, and if that is the case, GRRM would come across as a little bit of a hypocrite to me.

He apparently did not like that Jaehaeyrs II got removed from the GoT timeline, but he is okay with the Velaryon ladies getting erased or turned into Targaryens.

Then again, it would not be the first time GRRM has shown to have his own biases and contradictions; he always, as far as I've read, was adamant that the Velaryon seahorse was an actual seahorse, but he was okay with the show using the mythical one; he also insisted that his dragons have two legs because 'heralds didn't know crap about biology', but then he has his dragons breathing fire that matches their the color scheme. In fact, I feel that if he were truly concerned about follow biology, dragons should not be that much different from each other unless they had some mutation of were different genus of the same family, or different species of the same genus, which, if they are, I feel he should have made that clear from the get-go. Most Komodo dragons don't come in fancy colors, neither do most crocs, or most gators. Now, snakes can and do come in different colors, but you won't see a green Asian Vine Snake producing a Gold-Ringed Cat Snake.

Edited September 1, 2022 by zajaz