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[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion


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37 minutes ago, DMC said:

I understand people getting nitpicky about this.  I guess my point is even if Alyssa and Valaena were black and still in the family tree, you don't have to pretend the above three look biracial.  Not only because Matt Smith and Paddy Considine clearly do not look biracial, not only because genetics is magic in-universe anyway, but also because it is possible even in the real world that they'd still look white.  It's unlikely they all would, sure, but :dunno:

GRRM: The (Targaryen) seed is strong...

Me (looking at TPaTQ and Show Rhaenys, Show Jaehaerys, Show Viserys, Show Daemon, and the Hightorgaryens all having pale skin and white hair despite having parents or grandparents with either dark skin or dark hair): You're damn right.

GRMM: ... except when it isn't.

Me (looking at F&B Rhaenys, Show Baela, Show Rhaena, Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey, among many Targaryens that lose their pale valyrian looks when one of their parents has either dark hair or dark skin): Yeah, you can say that again.

 

Edited by zajaz
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1 minute ago, zajaz said:

GRRM: The (Targaryen) seed is strong...

Me (looking at TPaTQ and Show Rhaenys, Show Jaehaerys, Show Viserys, Show Daemon, and Hightargaryens all looking valyrian despite having parents with dark skin or dark hair): You're damn right.

GRMM: ... except when it isn't.

Me (looking at F&B Rhaenys, Show Baela, Show Rhaena, Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey, among many Targaryens that lose their pale valyrian looks when one of their parents is either dark haired or dark skinned): Yeah, you can say that again.

 

Words are wind.

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48 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I like what they did to Alicent. 

A lot of this fanbase just wants to hate her and make her out to be the evil step mother based on some shallow conceptions of F&B. This is much better. 

And yeah, I also hate Rhaenyra so there is that. 

Believe me when I tell you that unironically being Green makes you pretty brave. You have my respect for that. For my part, I'll just wish both sides good luck. I'll be enjoying the civil war that shall erupt on social media in the event that the writers manage to improve the Greens likeability somewhat.

Edited by zajaz
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34 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

she is the evil step mom in F&B . I mean , pawn or not, any person who can enter a 9yr old's life and make a faction to work against her interests is evil.

by the way why do you hate Rhaenyra? 

I mean, Alicent is trying to get her son made king of Westeros. It becomes a thing because she and her father are FLUMMOXED that Viserys doesn't want his son on the throne.

It's just nonsensical from their cultural upbringing.

Before Rhanyra marries Daemon, they werne't plotting against her so much as assuming it wouldn't even be a big deal.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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30 minutes ago, zajaz said:

Believe me when I tell you that unironically being Green makes you pretty brave. You have my respect for that. For my part, I'll just wish both sides good luck. I'll be enjoying the civil war that shall erupt on social media in the event that the writers manage improve the Greens likeability somewhat.

I am hoping that Aegon II is the scummiest piece of shit outside of Aegon IV and Joffrey. Mostly because I want to see Alicent realize she's raised a monster and that she still wants to cross the Rubicon for him.

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1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I am hoping that Aegon II is the scummiest piece of shit outside of Aegon IV and Joffrey. Mostly because I want to see Alicent realize she's raised a monster and that she still wants to cross the Rubicon for him.

Aegon II is such a piece of crap in the novels. It's kind of annoying that he gets such a cool small counsel...............granted a few of those members do wise up eventually.

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

 

by the way why do you hate Rhaenyra? 

She is a Targaryen elitist, she sees herself above the rest of westeros and cultivates this weird relationship with her uncle based off of a shared identity and ignores what is happening elsewhere. 

At least the Hightowers are in touch with the regular nobility of Westeros and not just their own specific genetically enhanced bloodline. 

Making Alicent sympathetic is good because the groundwork was there.  

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6 hours ago, zajaz said:

So, I don't know what information some of you may have, but if (and only if) it ends up being confirmed that in the show universe the Velaryons always have had darker skin compared to that of the the Targaryens, that could lead one to the conclusion the Valaena and Alyssa have been erased or turned into Targaryens instead of Velaryons. If such conclusion were to prove correct, I'm assuming GRRM was okay with that, and if that is the case, GRRM would come across as a little bit of a hypocrite to me.

He apparently did not like that Jaehaeyrs II got removed from the GoT timeline, but he is okay with the Velaryon ladies getting erased or turned into Targaryens.

Then again, it would not be the first time GRRM has shown to have his own biases and contradictions; he always, as far as I've read, was adamant that the Velaryon seahorse was an actual seahorse, but he was okay with the show using the mythical one; he also insisted that his dragons have two legs because 'heralds didn't know crap about biology', but then he has his dragons breathing fire that matches their the color scheme. In fact, I feel that if he were truly concerned about follow biology, dragons should not be that much different from each other unless they had some mutation of were different genus of the same family, or different species of the same genus, which, if they are, I feel he should have made that clear from the get-go. Most Komodo dragons don't come in fancy colors, neither do most crocs, or most gators. Now, snakes can and do come in different colors, but you won't see a green Asian Vine Snake producing a Gold-Ringed Cat Snake.

Wait, are they going to go "the seed is strong" on us again? :lmao: :rofl:

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9 hours ago, DMC said:

I dunno, I think your general critique - that Rhaenyra is being portrayed as a little too perfect - if very fair, and likely to become an issue in the next few episodes.  However, I don't mind establishing her as the capable main character right now (especially because Milly Alcock's performance is my favorite part of the show thus far).  Further, her ability to deal with Daemon's petulance is something I very much enjoy and fits my headcanon.

That’s not my general critique, I don’t think she is too perfect - at this point (though I do expect her to fall on her face a couple times in the future). My general critique is that the story is boring and I would welcome anything that stirs the waters. The egg was gone for a total of 5 minutes and retrieved without cost. Sure, Otto has a grudge against Rhaenyra now, but it’s not like he was an advocate of hers before. My first thought was when this problem was introduced that okay, what’s the worst thing that’s going to happen here? There were never any stakes. 

 

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Well that woulda seemed cruel on Viserys' part -- and probably pissed Corlys off even more.  I get the general complaint that everybody should have rather instantly put two and two together for why Alicent was there, but I think this is a decidedly minor complaint that is ignoring the fact it's a TV show and they were just trying to most expediently set up the "surprise" and reaction shots.

I think it would have only been fair. And if it posed Corlys off even more, all the better. He could have shared a scene with Laena and forced to interact with her which would tell us something about him. Well yes, that’s my problem, they did what was most convenient, stood all the actors they wanted in a row and took the reaction shots and didn’t bother to think about why it would play out like this or how it should play out (possibly yielding a better payoff). And yes, of course, it’s a minor complaint. The major complaint is that the show is bland. 

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11 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

So we are still watching this because sister is ill and moody and wanted to watch it. And why not, it should do fine as a background noise while we have dinner. BAD IDEA. Don’t attempt to consume food during this show. Why is gratuitous bodily decay a more elevated creative choice than gratuitous nudity or sex? 

We both found the episode profoundly boring. I cannot find a hook for my life, there’s virtually nothing in this show to reach my stimulus  threshold. It’s a deja vu loop in which everything feels like I’ve seen it before. I especially hate the wigs and hairstyles. The plot is predictable, the characters are flat and bland, the dialogue is poor. The themes are handled and delivered with the grace and subtlety of a T-Rex in New York. Zero thought or logic goes into putting scenes together which manifests in predictability, no payoff and lost opportunity for tension, character development and stakes. Long politically infused monologues won’t make me sympathize with characters I don’t know, it won’t make me know them, it won’t make me like them and it won’t make me care about them.

Imagine if Daemon didn’t bring his woman AND his egg to the meeting, for which he had absolutely no motive whatsoever. Especially if he lied about a pregnancy, which he wouldn’t want discovered otherwise why lie in the first place. Who would believe that he brings his allegedly pregnant bride to a meeting with a hostile representative which is believed to easily result in bloodshed - this was after all Rhaenyra’s argument for getting involved - ending up with his bride as collateral. Wouldn’t this be something to bring up in conversation if he did bring his bride to expose Daemon for a less clever leader than he shows himself to be rather than yelling profanities and insults at each other? and if we are at dialogues, Wouldn’t Otto or Viserys question Rhaenyra’s true motive for going and by proxy her maturity, instead of cowering before her strong female badassery? Wouldn’t this support the opinion that she is still young and has a lot to learn better than smug and emptily sexist remarks to shut down her ideas in council? Or is this not something we want to establish for real? Is it only the misconception of old males and Rhaenyra is a ready made ruler who is already better at ruling than Viserys and better at machiavellianism that Otto and better at riding a dragon than Daemon?  

As for not bringing the egg, an easy resolution couldn’t have happened because you can’t retrieve something that isn’t at hand. You can however certainly bargain and win time if you are necessary to produce a missing object. This is something a clever person would do or point out if a stupid person didn’t. It could have required a bit more finesse or struggle for Rhaenyra to get it which would have given the audience a tangible reason to root for her and which would have made the eventual success all the more valuable and deserved. Maybe, just maybe we would have had the time to get at least a tiny bit emotionally invested in the egg business or learn a bit more about Rhaenyra and Daemon via choices and action in the situation rather than a badly written dialogue. Maybe Rhaenyra could have had losses (literal or figurative) retrieving the egg, so she would have a moment for development. 

It was probably even clumsier however to have Alicent in the marriage announcement scene. What is the Hand’s daughter, a woman doing in the small council meeting, when even the king’s daughter is only in attendance fulfilling the role of a cup bearer? Wouldn’t everybody ask why she’s there and wouldn’t her presence confirm to herself and to her father that she will be the chosen new queen? If the Hand’s daughter is allowed to randomly hang out at the small council meeting as the most natural thing without raising eyebrows, what are we even talking about marginalized women’s rights in this world? There’s no legitimate reason for Alicent to be in that scene, you can take her reaction shot in a different scene that makes sense and has more meaning for her as a character. And her presence also entirely invalidates the reactions of the other characters. And undermines their alleged values. It was a ridiculous nonsensical unsatisfactory mess. 

The actors do what they can with what little they are given. The dragons look cool. I really like that there’s a character called Laena. I also enjoyed the 10 second scene of Rhaenyra showing up at dragonstone and dismounting her dragon. Her conversation with the king about her mother was nice. There are valuable small details that build her character, such as asking to sit down while being chastised. 

Once again not a millimeter above 5 out of 10. 

 

It was very surprising that Alicent Hightower was hanging out in the Small Council, at the Council table at her father's side; with no objection by the mean ol' Patriarchy.  I took it to mean that the King had already sealed the marriage deal with Otto Hightower and perhaps told the Council, and that Rhaenyra and possibly Alicent were the last to know.  Why else would Otto bring his daughter in to attend Council with him?  (makes no sense)

Daemon's lying about his girlfriend's pregnancy and then making things even worse by stealing the dragon's egg intended for his late nephew, the baby Prince Baelon, was a bit awkward - I could only take as Daemon getting bored again so he has to find something painful to use to annoy his brother to get Viserys' attention.  Only Rhaenyra crashes Daemon's pity-party/attention bid, so no one gets stabbity-burned.  At least Daemon seems to develop a new respect for Rhaenyra, so his squatter's party on Dragonstone accomplished something at least.  

I still enjoy the show and will continue to watch it.

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I really think that was it -- Daemon was bored and had expected Viserys to come to him to reconcile, and when that didn't happen he tried to force the issue, again to try and get Viserys to come to him begging his apology and perhaps writing the wrong of not naming him heir or whatever. It was not a well-formed plan, but it felt like Daemon was essentially having a bit of a tantrum.

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7 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, Alicent is trying to get her son made king of Westeros. It becomes a thing because she and her father are FLUMMOXED that Viserys doesn't want his son on the throne.

It's just nonsensical from their cultural upbringing.

Before Rhanyra marries Daemon, they werne't plotting against her so much as assuming it wouldn't even be a big deal.

well , that's true , it wasn't in their culture . but there's a gap there , we first meet 9 yr old Rhaenyra welcoming Alicent to the family . later , when she is 14 and Daemon comes to visit , one of the highlights for her is that he makes fun of Queen's faction . how did that happen? ! besides , there's nothing to say they weren't "plotting" against her .they might have thought it would all be so easy . maybe that's why that later on they push the idea of Strongs so hard . king is alright with that . Rhaenyra's husband is alright with that . but Greens clearly wanted to estrange the Velaryons from Rhaenyra . that's enough plotting to me.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

She is a Targaryen elitist, she sees herself above the rest of westeros and cultivates this weird relationship with her uncle based off of a shared identity and ignores what is happening elsewhere. 

At least the Hightowers are in touch with the regular nobility of Westeros and not just their own specific genetically enhanced bloodline. 

Making Alicent sympathetic is good because the groundwork was there.  

all Westerosi nobles are more or less elitists , probably with the exception of Arya Stark. difference is Targaryens actually have something to put their claim on , unlike, say, Lannisters or Hightowers . however , I can't see how Rhaenyra can be an elitist when her three eldest sons were sired by Harwin Strong .

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

I really think that was it -- Daemon was bored and had expected Viserys to come to him to reconcile, and when that didn't happen he tried to force the issue, again to try and get Viserys to come to him begging his apology and perhaps writing the wrong of not naming him heir or whatever. It was not a well-formed plan, but it felt like Daemon was essentially having a bit of a tantrum.

And to think about it, Otto was pretty smart there.

He knew about the issue way earlier than Viserys did, so he easily could've figured this out, and thus decided to stop Viserys from going at all cost. That he would've been willing to die on Dragonstone is also really unlikely, just as Daemon actually killing him, since he wants Viserys to see Otto for what he is, not make a martyr out of him.

I guess it worked out perfectly for Otto, and Daemon getting later on back with his own crown will just be another attempt like this one, but actually working. (I mean that he can't really go back to Viserys and say sorry to him, can he?)

 

 

Edited by Daeron the Daring
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8 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

She is a Targaryen elitist, she sees herself above the rest of westeros and cultivates this weird relationship with her uncle based off of a shared identity and ignores what is happening elsewhere. 

At least the Hightowers are in touch with the regular nobility of Westeros and not just their own specific genetically enhanced bloodline. 

Making Alicent sympathetic is good because the groundwork was there.  

I'm glad the show makes Alicent more sympathetic too, but let's be honest, every character coming from nobility is entitled and an elitist. What separates Targaryens from other nobles is the fact that they can control dragons, and to be fair, in a "Darwinism view" of this world, that's more than enough to justify their dominion over the others.

Thinking about the Black Velaryons and their insertion into the Targaryen family tree, it could work if Alyssa and Valaena were albinos, maybe ? Jaehearys and Alysanne would remain white, but Rhaena and her brother could be more mixed. That way it doesn't have any incidence over the family tree. I found it more plausible than having Daemon and Viserys as biracial..

And as long as they keep Viserys II and Larra Rogare white, it keeps its logic within the show canon.

Edited by Khloey
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2 hours ago, Ran said:

I really think that was it -- Daemon was bored and had expected Viserys to come to him to reconcile, and when that didn't happen he tried to force the issue, again to try and get Viserys to come to him begging his apology and perhaps writing the wrong of not naming him heir or whatever. It was not a well-formed plan, but it felt like Daemon was essentially having a bit of a tantrum.

Daemon is also commander of the gold cloaks, so he's essentially chairman of the bored.

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10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I fully believe that it is the lack of the Velaryon 'look' that will incriminate Rhaenyra's heirs.

This is something that was made more obvious than "Oh, they have brown hair!" in-universe.

Especially since Alicent has raven black hair and yet somehow has Targaryen-looking kids without hair dye or wigs.

You are confusing Alicent with Alysanne Blackwood. In show she has brown hair as was in GOT's history & lore.

More likely scenario in books is Hightowers having proto Valyrian features a la Lynesse & Alerei Hightower.

 

So much tedious talks about magic genetics & all. The show creater gave reason for Velaryon casting all should be clear by that surely? Show and books are different places. Lets not try to insert show inside book canon. It doesnt fit magic genes or real genetics without disregard to many details.

 

Edited by Lightoftheast
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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 

all Westerosi nobles are more or less elitists , probably with the exception of Arya Stark. difference is Targaryens actually have something to put their claim on , unlike, say, Lannisters or Hightowers . however , I can't see how Rhaenyra can be an elitist when her three eldest sons were sired by Harwin Strong .

She doesn't have to love Harwin, she just thinks of herself as above the rules and can do whatever she wants (and get away with it). 

The rest of the nobility at leas have a shared culture even if they are out of touch with the peasants and Alicent doesn't want to break from that mold. 

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