[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[BlackLightning]

@David Selig and @The Bard of Banefort

The point I am making is that the drama genre by nature is serious. You can have light moments here and there. But in general, dramatic movies and television are not known for being broadly humorous to a general audience. Especially not political dramas.

 

Now that I think about it, it all kind of goes back to the Tywin/Tyrion feud. Part of the reason why Tywin (and a bunch of other people) never really came to truly like Tyrion is because Tyrion plays too much. There's a time and place for everything and politics and humor rarely make good bedfellows...at least for people who are working in the political trenches.

Tyrion seemed to go out of his way to broadly challenge that notion only to turn around and be mad about how no one really liked him.

Edited August 30, 2022 by BlackLightning

[Maia]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think Rhaenyra's actions in this episode indicates she is going to be much more active during the show. Which is good, I think, both for a show and also for a novel about the Dance (Rhaenyra as a POV would be horrible if she were only doing the stuff she does in FaB).

It is so weird that the Dance is actually more sexist than the historical events which inspired it! Because the 2 Matildas were both very personally active in the conflict. Matilda of Bulogne, Stephen's wife was actually _the_ reason why he managed to hang on to the throne. She even occasionally commanded troops and while Empress Matilda was more of a political leader, she still raised troops and was physically present at many significant battles, etc. They didn't just leave everything to their men once the conflict became a war.

[Zorral]

The thing is the humor and / or comedy in shows and films like The Wire grows organically from the background -- cop humor is long tradition in the profession as it is the very dark humor of doctors and nurses in the medical profession; the legal profession has its own brand too. As well it grows organically from character as we learn the character and the characters' interactions.

However, so often in shows like got, many of us felt it was quip for quip sake, to show how smart the writers are, and for fan service, because some viewers loved the idea that Tyrion, for instance, is smarter than everyone else in the room (despite his proving himself to be no different in that area than anyone else in the room, as more and more time in books and show went on).  

Now shows like Buffy managed it honestly with very clever writing by very clever people with actors who were playing characters who emerge from a particular time and place -- southern California in the late 20th C.  Which is a very different kind humor than one sees in a court, anywhere, anytime, whether in Windsor Castle or the Ming court.

P.S. Soap operas aren't humorous, generally speaking.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Zorral

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

I agree.

I said this from the beginning that this was a mistake.

 

I mean, they could've easily made 3 episodes of the material they used for the first two: Rhaenyra-Alicent chit-chat, Daemon actually going to the Vale for a month, then taking Dragonstone, fleshing out Aemma a bit more, making more dialogues with Daemon and Viserys (most of it is golden), etc. 

I feel like the show will end with introducing characters. Just think of the Velaryon bastards, Hugh and Ulf, Nettles,. The faces of the war, and the afterwards. They will become a thing very late in the series. They could've decided to develop a bigger story on the Stepstones, so when the Triarchy joins the war, they actually have faces to bring back, etc. 

Look at Fight Club. How long the groundwork is in that movie. It's interesting, but not exciting, until they began to develop the fight club.

I think if the first season stopped with the actual assasination of Laenor, they would've had enoiugh material for the second season. The many conflicts between Alicent's and Rhaenyra's children, Rhaenyra and Daemon eventually ending up together, etc. Then season 2 can stop with Aemond tearing apart Arrax, and killing Lucerys in the process.

But I may be talking to myself. Is it confirmed where S1 will end? Leaked/semi-confirmed?

Edited August 30, 2022 by Daeron the Daring

[Zorral]

3 minutes ago, Maia said:

They didn't just leave everything to their men once the conflict became a war.

Indeed, Empress Matilda had to fight her hated husband every step of the way, Duke Geoffrey de Anjou.  At times he directly interfered with her efforts.

[Daeron the Daring]

31 minutes ago, Ran said:

I will say that the traffic on Westeros.org these past two weeks has been the highest it's been since the end of Season 4 in 2014. Literally millions of people have visited the site since the premiere.

I can imagine. I spend more time on the forum than usually the last few weeks, and I can't keep up with all the HOTD talk, I don't even really look at other parts of the forum currently. 

[David Selig]

25 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

That's very interesting. The number of posts/users doesn't seem to have increased that amount. Are there really millions of lurkers reading our ramblings?!

I bet a lot of viewers are checking the Wiki of Ice and Fire to understand better the Targaryen family tree and other things mentioned in the show. I have definitely checked it quite a bit while watching, because my memories of Fire and Blood are pretty vague.

Edited August 30, 2022 by David Selig

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, Maia said:

It is so weird that the Dance is actually more sexist than the historical events which inspired it! Because the 2 Matildas were both very personally active in the conflict. Matilda of Bulogne, Stephen's wife was actually _the_ reason why he managed to hang on to the throne. She even occasionally commanded troops and while Empress Matilda was more of a political leader, she still raised troops and was physically present at many significant battles, etc. They didn't just leave everything to their men once the conflict became a war.

At this point they have already established that Rhaenyra as a future queen does not shy away from leading herself (from the front) nor from endangering her own person. They contrast this with Viserys who is easily talked out of confronting Daemon in person - which is understandable to a point since he is actually not really healthy, but this is not something show Rhaenyra is going to emulate.

What I think the show failed to do so far is to depict that Viserys and Aemma really doted on Rhaenyra. She was always their favorite. It is okay that Viserys has trouble talking to her in his grief, etc. ... but it should have been established that the princess basically gets everything she wants when approaching her father.

A more well-rounded season 1 could have been if they had started with Baelon's death, actually depicting the Great Council in an entire episode, to then move on to introduce Otto and his family, etc. The Triarchy plot could have been played up more, so that there is a villain and a big fight in the end, and the personal story could have culminated both with Rhaenyra's first wedding and Daemon's marriage to Laena. The latter certainly would have had great potential as a potential danger, since Daemon could have easily decided to seize the throne in Laena's name or in the name of his young son in light of the support the rider of Vhagar would have given his cause.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Lord Varys

[C.T. Phipps]

10 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

The problem is the accent and you cant understand her. 

While the actress is of Japanese decent(Born in Tokyo), she was raised in London and speaks English, she even completely removes the English accent in other shows/movies she is in.  So this is either bad acting or bad directing. 

 

Having seen her in other things, it's absolutely a bad directing choice.

Mind you, I have no problem with the idea of a woman from further East ancestrally born in/living in Lys before she came to Westeros.

Most people did not leave the area of their homes but the trade routes and cosmopolitanism of cities in the Medieval World is severely understated.

[C.T. Phipps]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

At this point they have already established that Rhaenyra as a future queen does not shy away from leading herself (from the front) nor from endangering her own person. They contrast this with Viserys who is easily talked out of confronting Daemon in person - which is understandable to a point since he is actually not really healthy, but this is not something show Rhaenyra is going to emulate.

What I think the show failed to do so far is to depict that Viserys and Aemma really doted on Rhaenyra. She was always their favorite. It is okay that Viserys has trouble talking to her in his grief, etc. ... but it should have been established that the princess basically gets everything she wants when approaching her father.

A more well-rounded season 1 could have been if they had started with Baelon's death, actually depicting the Great Council in an entire episode, to then move on to introduce Otto and his family, etc. The Triarchy plot could have been played up more, so that there is a villain and a big fight in the end, and the personal story could have culminated both with Rhaenyra's first wedding and Daemon's marriage to Laena. The latter certainly would have had great potential as a potential danger, since Daemon could have easily decided to seize the throne in Laena's name or in the name of his young son in light of the support the rider of Vhagar would have given his cause.

The showrunners basically have an unusual situation of too much information and not enough. Where to start in what is essentially a large set of dominos spanning hundreds of years is pretty difficult as even the Dance of the Dragons is a culmination of twenty years of events. Part of the problem of the show is it's breakneck pace and the next episode is called "Second of his Name" which implies that it may well be another nine month timeskip (at least). It doesn't leave much room for dwelling on events.

But there is a very good argument that we're trying to get to the Civil War by the end of the season and that's a reasonable compromise.

[Daeron the Daring]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

At this point they have already established that Rhaenyra as a future queen does not shy away from leading herself (from the front) nor from endangering her own person. They contrast this with Viserys who is easily talked out of confronting Daemon in person - which is understandable to a point since he is actually not really healthy, but this is not something show Rhaenyra is going to emulate.

What I think the show failed to do so far is to depict that Viserys and Aemma really doted on Rhaenyra. She was always their favorite. It is okay that Viserys has trouble talking to her in his grief, etc. ... but it should have been established that the princess basically gets everything she wants when approaching her father.

A more well-rounded season 1 could have been if they had started with Baelon's death, actually depicting the Great Council in an entire episode, to then move on to introduce Otto and his family, etc. The Triarchy plot could have been played up more, so that there is a villain and a big fight in the end, and the personal story could have culminated both with Rhaenyra's first wedding and Daemon's marriage to Laena. The latter certainly would have had great potential as a potential danger, since Daemon could have easily decided to seize the throne in Laena's name or in the name of his young son in light of the support the rider of Vhagar would have given his cause.

Thinking it through, I don't even know how they're gonna have enough time for all the things. 

I imagine the things they do show us will be great, but Season 1 will leave us with much bitterness of what else may had been included and much more developed.

[Lord Varys]

Regarding Viserys-Alicent:

Do we know if any scenes were cut there? Does anybody know if they were any kissing or sex scenes before the announcement of the marriage?

I don't think so, to be true, since it seems the revelation of the marriage is very much scripted as a surprise. But I think there is a kind of inherent problem there since we don't actually know now what either of them thought of the other prior to the marriage. As I said in the first episode, I think Alicent always kind of liked Viserys. She asks her father about him and I imagine Otto also sent Alicent to him because he knew she liked him.

But on Viserys' side Alicent just seems to be a kind of conversationalist partner. Somebody he likes to be with because she helps him talk about his grief and to feel closer to his daughter (!). That is a very bad foundation for a marriage.

One hopes that later intimate scenes between the two establish that they always had a connection or at least formed a close bond during their marriage.

3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

But there is a very good argument that we're trying to get to the Civil War by the end of the season and that's a reasonable compromise.

I'm pretty sure it can still work. It is just that it is clear that certain storylines will be pretty rushed, and other characters which could have gotten more screentime (Laena & Laenor especially) won't feature all that prominently.

Lyonel Strong does shine pretty bright at this point, though his sons have yet to be introduced.

3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Thinking it through, I don't even know how they're gonna have enough time for all the things. 

I imagine the things they do show us will be great, but Season 1 will leave us with much bitterness of what else may had been included and much more developed.

I very much enjoyed the sept scene with Alicent and Rhaenyra ... but they kind of dropped the ball by making these two only hang out alone together. Rhaenyra should a coterie of companions about her, and we should see them. The book mentions that she had two Strong girls as companions for a time, and it could have helped if the princess was not just only with Hand's daughter but if they were actually joined by the children (especially the daughters) of other council members.

We could see, say, Beesbury's granddaughter, a daughter of Lord Lyonel, and, of course, Laena spending some time with them.

And thinking about Otto's late wife, I think it could have worked pretty well if she had been a daughter of Lord Lyman Beesbury. Not only would this add another ugly spin on the later murder, but with the Beesbury's being Hightower bannermen such a match would actually make sense.

[The Bard of Banefort]

They’re going to have their work cut out for them next season. So much of the Dance is recounting battles and how many people died. There’s very little dialogue and human interaction. People may love big battles, but there’s more to a story than just action. I’m guessing they’re going to have to invent a number of different subplots to fill out the season.

[C.T. Phipps]

Oddly, I'd argue that maybe not starting the Civil War would have been better but ending on the death of Viserys.

A couple of extra episodes with Laenor and Laena.

Or maybe building up to Alicent and Viserys and the birth of Aegon the Awful.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

In the books, the voting is only between Rhaenys and Viserys. The other claimants had been eliminated before the final vote:

I'm sure you meant Laenor there ;-).

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I've never believed the 20 to 1 result (my conspiracy theory is that the numbers where very close and maesters lied). But in any case, the official history is that even if she technical came second, she suffered a resounding defeat.

Her son suffered the defeat. And plot-wise this is necessary because the way the Great Council prevented a succession war was by establishing that most of the Realm was firmly behind the claimant who won the day.

I don't think the maesters would have had any reason to lie there, nor do I think that the Citadel would necessarily agree with Viserys' claim being the strongest. We hear how the Goodbrother maester in AFfC supports Asha's claim.

[C.T. Phipps]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm sure you meant Laenor there ;-).

Her son suffered the defeat. And plot-wise this is necessary because the way the Great Council prevented a succession war was by establishing that most of the Realm was firmly behind the claimant who won the day.

I don't think the maesters would have had any reason to lie there, nor do I think that the Citadel would necessarily agree with Viserys' claim being the strongest. We hear how the Goodbrother maester in AFfC supports Asha's claim.

1. Yeah, I think this was a good change because it adds a layer of injustice there.

2. There's actually a practical argument for Viserys over Laenor other than matrilineal succession being attacked. Viserys is an adult while Laenor was a child.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I had not considered that HOTD will overlap with football season (US football, that is). That’s honestly a much bigger threat than She-Hulk, Rings of Power, Andor, and Cobra Kai combined haha (after all, as the Ds reminded us, football fans were the target audience for GOT).

[Ran]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Troy, Wolverine,

 

By all accounts the Wolverine script that was produced with his name on it was very, very heavily rewritten by Skip Woods, a man whose RT average is, like... 15% or something. Without seeing the original, undoctored script personally, I can only go on the accounts from those who've read it who say it was all around a much better script before they hacked away at it.

I'm not a fan of Troy but it's basically an average sort of film.

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

For the record, Ryan Condal's credits include the movies Hercules and Rampage starring Dwayne Johnson. 

[Ran]

I can't speak to Condal's script on Rampage, but the way he's spoken of Hercules on his podcast, it sounds like the filmed script wasn't all that much like what he submitted. He was basically shoved out the door after they bought the script. He never even got to visit the set, and the only memento he has was given to him this past year by Simon Atherton because he got to meet him (he was the armorer on Aliens, one of his holy grail films) through someone working on HotD.

That said, both of those films are basically streets ahead of anything Skip Wood has put his hands on, looking at RT.

I actually have not seen either, bit too action-y for me, but I'm thinking of giving his show Colony a go in my copious spare time.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Ran