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[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion


Ran
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33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If they want to keep Alyssa Velaryon as King Aenys' wife they could go with that, perhaps by making her a member of lighter-skinned cadet branch of House Velaryon, or even going with the Summer Islander idea, giving Daemon or Corwyn Velaryon or both a dark-skinned wife. That way, all the Velaryons we see in the show could be dark-skinned without this being how they have always looked.

OR, Alyssa Velaryon could be Aenys' wife, and black, and just happened to have white children.  Not only because genetics are already magic in-universe, but because, ya know, that happens in the real world too.

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

I'm 99% certain that when Laena says to Viserys to join their houses as they were in Old Valyria, this means Valaena Velaryon and Alyssa Velaryon, and any other Velaryon marriages to Targaryens between the Doom and Aegon and his sisters, have been removed and replaced with Targaryen sisters (or Celtigars or Qoherys or Valyrians from the Free City).

It would be nice if the Celtigars got a Targ marriage. They’re always getting put down in the books.

4 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

Huh. Good point – at the danger of completely derailing this thread: I haven’t read Atwood in this millennium, and never much secondary literature or commentary. Honest question: Is the theme of liberation (in the neo-Marxist sense – liberation from vectors oppression, here from fear) this explicitly present in Atwood? (I can absolutely see how that’s a valid reading of Handmaid, so I’m not questioning that such a reading makes sense.) Yes/no/link answer suffices.

Wait, so that wasn’t satire before?

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I meant that Maelor will be the time viewers realize what this war means, and that both sides are willing to do it, and how stupid is that. I suppose there will be stans who won't back down from staning, but others who even fanboy/fangirl around either the Blacks or the Greens, but think through what they see on the screen, realise that it's not gonna be a sweet victory, even if it is one. At some point, I think factionalism will stop being important to viewers. I hope, at least. 

 Off-topic: Bro, I swear to God, I can't stand the HOTD ads. They're everywhere.

For a long time, I thought it was really weird how little advertising there was for HOTD. Now I can’t wait for them to go away. The ads don’t even look that good.

They’re trying damn hard to earn that $200 million back. I find it curious that when HBO announced the viewing numbers, they said nothing about subscriptions, and I wonder if that’s because of the DC/animation fans backlash. Animation doesn’t get a lot of mainstream attention, but the fans are passionate, and a lot of them are boycotting HBO now.

3 hours ago, slant said:

There is one thing that no one is talking about... the disease. 

Is it greyscale? Is it something else because he has a Dumbledore hand now? 

Apparently they confirmed its greyscale. Which is quite stupid, because no army would serve alongside someone with greyscale. They would have chucked him into the sea instead.

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5 minutes ago, DMC said:

OR, Alyssa Velaryon could be Aenys' wife, and black, and just happened to have white children.  Not only because genetics are already magic in-universe, but because, ya know, that happens in the real world too.

Then I would ask why between Laena, Laenor, Baela or Rhaena, not a single one of them are white. Baela and Rhaena are particularly puzzling, bacause not only was their mother biracial, but his father happened to be as white as one can be without turning into an albino. And please, don't take this as me being racist, I'm just asking the writers to come out and explain to us if the Valaryons have always had darker skin, or if it's just Corlys's mother that was a Summer Islander.

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8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Apparently they confirmed its greyscale. Which is quite stupid, because no army would serve alongside someone with greyscale. They would have chucked him into the sea instead.

While most people kinda forgot that having greyscale makes you a pariah, the Crabfeeder certainly hasn't forgotten about that.

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3 minutes ago, DMC said:

OR, Alyssa Velaryon could be Aenys' wife, and black, and just happened to have white children.  Not only because genetics are already magic in-universe, but because, ya know, that happens in the real world too.

In light of there also being Valaena Velaryon as Aenys' grandmother and in light of their respective children (and grandchildren) practicing sibling incest that's not something you can sell convincingly. The whole incest thing makes this whole thing really odd. As I keep saying - black Hightowers or Strongs wouldn't have been an issue at all compared to this thing.

Although I guess they could take that route with the children of Daenaera Velaryon and Aegon III ... if they are ever depicted.

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21 minutes ago, zajaz said:

So, I don't know what information some of you may have, but if (and only if) it ends up being confirmed that in the show universe the Velaryons always have had darker skin compared to that of the the Targaryens, that could lead one to the conclusion the Valaena and Alyssa have been erased or turned into Targaryens instead of Velaryons. If such conclusion were to prove correct, I'm assuming GRRM was okay with that, and if that is the case, GRRM would come across as a little bit of a hypocrite to me.

Two points:

1. No, it just means that the show is going to act like Targaryens having black ancestry doesn't affect the actors chosen.

2. GRRM was asked about canon and said, "Well, this is all fictional."

He's been very clear he's not really concerned about this sort of thing.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Apparently they confirmed its greyscale. Which is quite stupid, because no army would serve alongside someone with greyscale. They would have chucked him into the sea instead.

well there are possibilities:

1. his condition is like Shereen's . he is a prince and he has enough money to hire professionals

2. he's made his men so rich that they turn a blind eye to the situation

3. he was like Jon Con at the beginning and he's hidden his illness for so long that his men had no choice/ were to stay by his side , albeit with a reasonable distance

4 minutes ago, zajaz said:

Then I would ask why between Laena, Laenor, Baela or Rhaena, not a single one of them are white. Baela and Rhaena are particularly puzzling, bacause not only was their mother biracial, but his father happened to be as white as one can be without turning into an albino. And please, don't take this as me being racist, I'm just asking the writers to come out and explain to us if the Valaryons have always had darker skin, or if it's just Corlys's mother that was a Summer Islander.

dire need of diversity in the show and it can happen I think

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5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

they should have done him as a court event commentator.

You mean like the newsreader at the Forum in the HBO Rome?  From Quora --

Quote

The character Newsreader played by Ian McNeice was an offical known as a praeco, who was a public herald who would read public messages aloud in the forum and had to master the rules of ‘pantomime’ as part of his job. As for his hand gestures this was a technique used in Latin oratory know as Chironomia (literally, ‘rules of the hand’) and the praeco was certainly trained in oratory with a good strong voice and the hand gestures he uses was for the conveyance of unspoken meaning understood by the audience.. Though there is no contemporary text that states the praeco actually spoke using the gestures of a Roman orator, although it's not unlikely to think that they might have used this gestures. There is similiar gestures used in Christian icongraphy of saints having sermons there is a specific hand gestures.

Or the balladeers and minstrels and singers at fairs and in the streets of medieval European cities? Charlemagne hired them by the hundreds.

Either one would have been really cool for Hot D, actually.  And would work in with their Covid safety restrictions.  It would have opened the stage, so to speak, given us all air to breathe.

 

Edited by Zorral
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12 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Two points:

1. No, it just means that the show is going to act like Targaryens having black ancestry doesn't affect the actors chosen.

2. GRRM was asked about canon and said, "Well, this is all fictional."

1. So, does this mean that we should pretend that, in universe, at the very least, Jaehaerys, Viserys, Daemon are actually biracial, and that Paddy Considine, Matt Smith, and Jaehaerys' actor being white is just a matter of chosing actors that are better suited for their roles?

2. Well, GRRM, guess what? Dragons are also fictional, but you apparently want to use the excuse that four-legged dragons 'it's not consistent with biology' for writing them having only two legs.

Edited by zajaz
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2 minutes ago, zajaz said:

1. So, does this mean that we should pretend that, in universe, at the very least, Jaehaerys, Viserys, Daemon are biracial? It's just a matter of chosing actors that are better for the role?

2. Well, GRRM, guess what? Dragons are also fictional, but you apparently want to use the excuse that four-legged dragons 'it's not consistent with biology' for writing them having only two legs.

1. I mean, if they have a black ancester, they are. However, it doesn't matter because it's pure Valyrian ancestry either way. The important thing is to not bring our baggage from RL to Westeros. The magical dragonriding people see Valyrians as fundamentally different people. Corys looks more like their equal any of those mongrel Andals.

2. Here's what he said specifically if it helps too:

https://popculture.com/tv-shows/news/house-of-the-dragon-author-reveals-thoughts-on-book-canon-vs-show-canon/

"We have two canons. We have the show canon, the Game of Thrones canon. And we have the Song of Ice and Fire canon," Martin said simply. "And in the book canon, obviously, still writing The Winds of Winter, I'm sure you all know that, and then there's another book beyond that. And as I write them, and I've said this in a previous blog post, I always knew that things were gonna be different, but as I'm writing, as the stories are coming alive, and the characters are coming alive, taking me further and further away from the show. So there's gonna be some very considerable differences, and the book canon is gonna be quite different from the show canon as we get deeper into it."

He continued: "There are two different canons. Now, because most of these shows that we're developing, almost all of them are prequels. I think it's a single canon. Because all of these prequels can lead up to Game of Thrones at the beginning." Martin seemed to imply that the TV shows will generally adhere to the TV show canon, not the book canon, but his real concern was avoiding further divergences.

"But what I wanna avoid – and I don't know how many shows are gonna [on the air] – hopefully more than one. But, as I said, we have the book canon and we have the show canon. What I don't want to happen is that we have 17 show canons. Every different showrunner decides to take it in a different direction. And nothing makes any sense because there's no consistency."

In terms of House of the Dragon, Martin pointed out that the question of "canon" was central to the book it's based on, Fire & Blood. It's an "imaginary history book" written from the perspective of a Westerosi scholar, and it often cites contradictory in-world sources for its own events, leaving readers uncertain what to believe. However, the TV show does not have that unreliable narrator.

"At some point it hit me: 'why don't I give all version?' Because history is uncertain. I'll give all versions and it'll be fun for me," Martin said. "...but [showrunners Ryan Condal and Miguel Sapochnik], when they're adapting it, they largely had to make up their minds."

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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7 minutes ago, zajaz said:

And please, don't take this as me being racist, I'm just asking the writers to come out and explain to us if the Valaryons have always had darker skin, or if it's just Corlys's mother that was a Summer Islander.

Fair enough.  But it's entirely possible Alyssa (and Valaena) could have been black; Aenys and Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have been white; Laena, Laenor, Baela, and Rhaena could be more mixed (until you mentioned it I wasn't even aware of the casting for the latter two).  That explanation would be fine to me - albeit I do kinda like the idea of some recent Lord of the Tides marrying a Summer Islander.  The black/mixed race Velaryons already all still have the white/silver hair (whatever you wanna call those wigs), so who gives a shit?

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In light of there also being Valaena Velaryon as Aenys' grandmother and in light of their respective children (and grandchildren) practicing sibling incest that's not something you can sell convincingly.

I honestly don't see why it'd be an issue.  Maybe you could make some of Aenys and Alyssa's other children darker to even out the odds - Rhaena sounds like an interesting candidate - but frankly I don't see why this show should delve into the skin color of ancestors so much.  The entire point is it doesn't really matter.

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26 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

1. I mean, if they have a black ancester, they are. However, it doesn't matter because it's pure Valyrian ancestry either way. The important thing is to not bring our baggage from RL to Westeros.

2. Here's what he said specifically if it helps too:

https://popculture.com/tv-shows/news/house-of-the-dragon-author-reveals-thoughts-on-book-canon-vs-show-canon/

"We have two canons. We have the show canon, the Game of Thrones canon. And we have the Song of Ice and Fire canon," Martin said simply. "And in the book canon, obviously, still writing The Winds of Winter, I'm sure you all know that, and then there's another book beyond that. And as I write them, and I've said this in a previous blog post, I always knew that things were gonna be different, but as I'm writing, as the stories are coming alive, and the characters are coming alive, taking me further and further away from the show. So there's gonna be some very considerable differences, and the book canon is gonna be quite different from the show canon as we get deeper into it."

He continued: "There are two different canons. Now, because most of these shows that we're developing, almost all of them are prequels. I think it's a single canon. Because all of these prequels can lead up to Game of Thrones at the beginning." Martin seemed to imply that the TV shows will generally adhere to the TV show canon, not the book canon, but his real concern was avoiding further divergences.

"But what I wanna avoid – and I don't know how many shows are gonna [on the air] – hopefully more than one. But, as I said, we have the book canon and we have the show canon. What I don't want to happen is that we have 17 show canons. Every different showrunner decides to take it in a different direction. And nothing makes any sense because there's no consistency."

In terms of House of the Dragon, Martin pointed out that the question of "canon" was central to the book it's based on, Fire & Blood. It's an "imaginary history book" written from the perspective of a Westerosi scholar, and it often cites contradictory in-world sources for its own events, leaving readers uncertain what to believe. However, the TV show does not have that unreliable narrator.

"At some point it hit me: 'why don't I give all version?' Because history is uncertain. I'll give all versions and it'll be fun for me," Martin said. "...but [showrunners Ryan Condal and Miguel Sapochnik], when they're adapting it, they largely had to make up their minds."

GRRM: The show is the show, and the books are the books.

Me: That's a perfectly reasonable response. I agree with you, George.

Also GRRM (according to Miguel Sapochnik): David and Dan and skipped over Jaehaerys II for reasons of clarity that George really didn't understand. He had a bee in his bonnet about it. He wanted us to right that wrong.

Me: So that was a freaking lie.

Edited by zajaz
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10 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

"But what I wanna avoid – and I don't know how many shows are gonna [on the air] – hopefully more than one. But, as I said, we have the book canon and we have the show canon. What I don't want to happen is that we have 17 show canons. Every different showrunner decides to take it in a different direction. And nothing makes any sense because there's no consistency.

No one ring to rule them all and in the darkness find them. :read:

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17 minutes ago, DMC said:

Fair enough.  But it's entirely possible Alyssa (and Valaena) could have been black; Aenys and Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have been white; Laena, Laenor, Baela, and Rhaena could be more mixed (until you mentioned it I wasn't even aware of the casting for the latter two).  That explanation would be fine to me - albeit I do kinda like the idea of some recent Lord of the Tides marrying a Summer Islander.  The black/mixed race Velaryons already all still have the white/silver hair (whatever you wanna call those wigs), so who gives a shit?

I honestly don't see why it'd be an issue.  Maybe you could make some of Aenys and Alyssa's other children darker to even out the odds - Rhaena sounds like an interesting candidate - but frankly I don't see why this show should delve into the skin color of ancestors so much.  The entire point is it doesn't really matter.

Don't worry, mate. For what it's worth, this is just a nitpick. I'm just neurotic about family trees and looks (and GRRM insistence in having major House have a distinct look does not help). If I have to pretend that Jaehaerys, Viserys, and Daemon actually look somewhat biracial in universe... Well, so be it, then. 

Edited by zajaz
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18 minutes ago, zajaz said:

GRRM: The show is the show, and the books are the books.

Me: That's a perfectly reasonable response. I agree with you, George.

Also GRRM (according to Miguel Sapochnik): David and Dan and skipped over Jaehaerys [II] for reasons of clarity that he really didn't understand. He had a bee in his bonnet about it. He wanted us to right that wrong.

Me: So that was a freaking lie.

Also GRRM:

GRRM: I'm against resurrection in fantasy and think Gandalf the Grey should have stayed dead.

*writes more resurrections than any other fantasy author*

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2 minutes ago, zajaz said:

Don't worry, mate. For what it's worth, this is just a nitpick. I'm just neurotic about family trees and looks (and GRRM insistence in having major House have a distinct look does not help). If I have to pretend that Jaehaerys, Viserys, and Daemon actually look somewhat biracial in universe... Well, so be it, then.

I understand people getting nitpicky about this.  I guess my point is even if Alyssa and Valaena were black and still in the family tree, you don't have to pretend the above three look biracial.  Not only because Matt Smith and Paddy Considine clearly do not look biracial, not only because genetics is magic in-universe anyway, but also because it is possible even in the real world that they'd still look white.  It's unlikely they all would, sure, but :dunno:

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the next show they make , let's say something about Blackfyre rebellion or anything else down the line, could feature Targaryens as mixed race with siver hair . especially with so many times they married Velaryons and the Dornish . it could all be alright with a reboot of GoT where Dany is mixed race.

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I fully believe that it is the lack of the Velaryon 'look' that will incriminate Rhaenyra's heirs.

This is something that was made more obvious than "Oh, they have brown hair!" in-universe.

Especially since Alicent has raven black hair and yet somehow has Targaryen-looking kids without hair dye or wigs.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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