[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[The Bard of Banefort]

I’ll be honest: I really don’t care about the Velaryons being black. I think it’s something that fans just need to accept and move on from. It only really affects the story in minuscule ways. If we ever see Alyssa Velaryon on screen, her name will be Alyssa Massey or Alyssa Targaryen instead, but she’ll still be the same character. They don’t even necessarily have to change Daenaera’s family—all they have to do is make sure that Daena takes after her father, which will ensure that Daemon Blackfyre still looks like a Valyrian warrior-god.

And let’s be frank. If HBO ever reboots GOT (and I think there’s a good chance they will), several houses will all but certainly be race-swapped. Probably not the Baratheons or Lannisters for plot reasons, but the Starks, Arryns, Greyjoys, etc. are all fair game.

[Ran]

18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And let’s be frank. If HBO ever reboots GOT (and I think there’s a good chance they will), several houses will all but certainly be race-swapped. Probably not the Baratheons or Lannisters for plot reasons, but the Starks, Arryns, Greyjoys, etc. are all fair game.

That wouldn't bug me one bit.

Personally, I feel like the first attempt at adapting something should try to be very faithful, but once you've adapted it once that way, well, why not play with it to your heart's content if it takes root and people love it that much? There's a zillion different takes on Shakespeare's plays. There's a Kabuki Star Wars that looks amazing (although that has much more artistic merit than pretty much any Hollywood remake...):

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

That wouldn't bug me one bit.

Personally, I feel like the first attempt at adapting something should try to be very faithful, but once you've adapted it once that way, well, why not play with it to your heart's content if it takes root and people love it that much? There's a zillion different takes on Shakespeare's plays. There's a Kabuki Star Wars that looks amazing (although that has much more artistic merit than pretty much any Hollywood remake...):

 

The Iron Islands would be the easiest place to diversify due to all the salt wives/thralls brought over from other kingdoms. And on GOT, I don’t think we met any other named Ironborn families aside from the Greyjoys. Another reason why a pre-Conquest Ironborn prequel could be fun.

[EggBlue]

I mean.. both Valyrians and First Men could easily be non-white if GoT ever gets a reboot. for Valyrians , they will even look more God like if they add proper eyebrows and purple eyes. and first men are basically a different race from Andals . make First Men Black and Andals white and all Westeros will be diverse. lol   heck even making Baratheons mixed raced (considering Targ heritage ) would work perfectly with "the seed is strong" plot.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by EggBlue

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Seriously, Ser Cole helped in treason and murder purely because he was pissy at his ex-girlfriend not wanting to move to California with him in a van.

Criston is notable for the fact that, of all the Greens, he is by FAR the pettiest.

I thought he was the one to end it with her.

[C.T. Phipps]

30 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I thought he was the one to end it with her.

And when she went, "Okay, your loss" it bugged the HELL out of him beyond all measure that he ended up trying to kill her lover and waging war on them.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’ll be honest: I really don’t care about the Velaryons being black. I think it’s something that fans just need to accept and move on from. It only really affects the story in minuscule ways. If we ever see Alyssa Velaryon on screen, her name will be Alyssa Massey or Alyssa Targaryen instead, but she’ll still be the same character. They don’t even necessarily have to change Daenaera’s family—all they have to do is make sure that Daena takes after her father, which will ensure that Daemon Blackfyre still looks like a Valyrian warrior-god.

And let’s be frank. If HBO ever reboots GOT (and I think there’s a good chance they will), several houses will all but certainly be race-swapped. Probably not the Baratheons or Lannisters for plot reasons, but the Starks, Arryns, Greyjoys, etc. are all fair game.

I mean, I am fully prepared to accept seeing Alyssa Velaryon as biracial or black and not remotely commenting on it.

But yes, this is a hole that can never be dug out of.

It's just....a part of the show and not worth the wind spend on it.

Edited September 1, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Criston is notable for the fact that, of all the Greens, he is by FAR the pettiest.

And the prettiest, although the bar isn't particularly high. 

[EggBlue]

my friend's favorite character so far is ser Criston Cole...sigh.... 

and it doesn't help that Fabien Frankel is so freaking charming in his interviews!

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’ll be honest: I really don’t care about the Velaryons being black. I think it’s something that fans just need to accept and move on from. It only really affects the story in minuscule ways. If we ever see Alyssa Velaryon on screen, her name will be Alyssa Massey or Alyssa Targaryen instead, but she’ll still be the same character. They don’t even necessarily have to change Daenaera’s family—all they have to do is make sure that Daena takes after her father, which will ensure that Daemon Blackfyre still looks like a Valyrian warrior-god.

So much talk about it, and I feel like I gotta express one point that hadn't been talked about. It's mine, but I can see people feeling the same way.

I love Steve Toussaint's Corlys (I'd suck his d, is how I would say it), it's just that I like to attach faces to the characters we've got. The faces I get in HOTD will burn into my headcanon, I can't help it, and I quite like that about myself. But that won't happen in Corlys' case because I'm incapable of not imagining him as a white valyrian dude outside the show. He's up there in performance with Paddy, Matt Smith, Milly and maybe Emilia Carey, and that's the single thing that matters. And I don't even mind the change in the lore (the fuck do I care about Alyssa Velaryon, this is HOTD), it's just the lack of fulfillment about my own headcanon, I guess. At the same time, I'm unable to imagine Sallador Saan as a lyseni with valyrian features. He's the black actor who played him in GOT. It's the first image I got of the character, I don't even want to change that. Same goes for Xaro Xhoan Daxos, he's the chunky dude who played him in GOT in my headcanon, and it's totally fine. But I got to imagine Corlys based on fanarts and description, and the two images are so different that I can't adjust them to each other. 

Thou my headcanon is definitely stealing the rasta hair.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Based on stills, the next episode takes place in the Westerlands, and Alicent is already pregnant with Helaena. I wonder if the showrunners thought that people would lose interest if they didn’t end S1 with the start of the war? There’s so much that they could be fleshing out but are instead skipping over.

[zajaz]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

my friend's favorite character so far is ser Criston Cole...sigh.... 

and it doesn't help that Fabien Frankel is so freaking charming in his interviews!

Perhaps the show is going to pull a reverse Jaime. Instead of a character that many people hated in the beginning, only for them to love him afterwards, HotD is going to show Criston as a charming Knight in Shining Armor that many will ship with Rhaenyra as this sort of star-crossed romance that sadly can't be because how things work in Westeros... only for the fandom to hate him once they realize how much of a petty, unhealthy, and revenge-obssesed indivual he becomes once the whole affair (whatever the show reveal it was) happens.

Then again, if the HotD were to truly pull a Jaime, the show would have him confess he still loves Rhaenyra with all his heart at the Butcher's Ball.

Criston Cole: To be honest, I've always loved Rhaenyra and her kids, even to this day. Bastards or otherwise.

Edited September 1, 2022 by zajaz

[EggBlue]

5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Based on stills, the next episode takes place in the Westerlands, and Alicent is already pregnant with Helaena. I wonder if the showrunners thought that people would lose interest if they didn’t end S1 with the start of the war? There’s so much that they could be fleshing out but are instead skipping over.

I will never forgive(a bit harsh I guess!) them for not properly fleshing out pre Dance characters (Laena , Harwin , Laenor , Luke , etc.) . but as I've said before I understand they want to hit hard at the end of the season. without the first dance between Luke and Aemond , there's nothing new to the show . you've got some family drama in an old setting and yes there are dragons .. but so what? ... those dragons need to fight. thus , I'm putting my hope on the next three-four seasons where they can pretend, other than clear exceptions, main characters are the second generations and flesh them out A LOT.  

like, someone like Jace can easily be a Robb Stark figure and with 3-4 more seasons , imagine what they can do with Baella , Addam , Daeron, even Aegon II and the rest.... 

[The Wondering Wolf]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If we ever see Alyssa Velaryon on screen, her name will be Alyssa Massey or Alyssa Targaryen instead

Hm.

[Ran]

25 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Hm.

I don't trust anything from marketing as far as what the show is doing, as we've seen GoT marketing come up with odd stuff, but it's odd that of all the offspring coming from parents, Aenys's offspring come directly from him and Alyssa is conspicuously not connected to them. Just bad design, perhaps, due to wanting to keep it at the same level as Maegor, but maybe a hint of how they square the circle (not that he spawned them himself, of course, but rather there's an unnamed mother involved).

Edited September 1, 2022 by Ran

[C.T. Phipps]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't trust anything from marketing as far as what the show is doing, as we've seen GoT marketing come up with odd stuff, but it's odd that of all the offspring coming from parents, Aenys's offspring come directly from him and Alyssa is conspicuously not connected to them. Just bad design, perhaps, due to wanting to keep it at the same level as Maegor, but maybe a hint of how they square the circle (not that he spawned them himself, of course, but rather there's an unnamed mother involved).

I am betting 100% they don't care one whit that the actors don't "match."

Edited September 1, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I am betting 100% they don't care one whit that the actors don't "match."

Possibly. Condal seems potentially nerdy enough to want an explanation for himself as to what went on. In the History of Westeros interview, he even came up with an explanation for how the opening credits are a symbolic reference to a lost device the bloodmages of Valyria used to keep track of bloodlines. Entirely unnecessary, but for whatever reason he did the unnecessary.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Ran

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

my friend's favorite character so far is ser Criston Cole...sigh.... 

He is one of my favorites as well. Otto is the only future Green I find annoying because he is really grasping and an asshole to his daughter. Alicent is likable, too.

48 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Hm.

While I suggested Alyssa Targaryen (from an unknown male cadet branch earlier - say, a descendant of a younger brother of Lord Aerion or even Lord Daemion) this raises the vexing issue of Alyssa not being a dragonrider - Aegon and Aenys would have likely given her one if she had been a Targaryen by birth. Considering her background and the whole run-and-hide shenanigans during Maegor's reign the story would have worked much better, anyway, if Alyssa and not Laenor/Laena had been the first Velaryon dragonrider.

Alyssa Baratheon wouldn't work because of the hair (if they still care about that), Celtigar and Massy kind of feel odd. Thus I'd rather go with a lighter-skinned Velaryon from a cadet branch.

28 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't trust anything from marketing as far as what the show is doing, as we've seen GoT marketing come up with odd stuff, but it's odd that of all the offspring coming from parents, Aenys's offspring come directly from him and Alyssa is conspicuously not connected to them. Just bad design, perhaps, but maybe a hint of how they square the circle.

Don't some people interpret Alyssa Velaryon being the opening credits sign before the sign of Jaehaerys & Alysanne? They view the first symbol as Aegon and sister, followed by Aenys & Maegor with Aenys' blood then flowing to Alyssa and then Jaehaerys & Alysanne.

Apparently the alleged Alyssa device looks like a ship.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Lord Varys

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Apparently the alleged Alyssa device looks like a ship.

I see a strange crown (referencing Aenys's unique, gaudy crown) and maybe a knife, not a ship at all. We don't see who it connects to before their blood flow to Jaehaerys and Alysanne, unless I'm missing something.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

I see a strange crown (referencing Aenys's unique, gaudy crown) and maybe a knife, not a ship at all. We don't see who it connects to before their blood flow to Jaehaerys and Alysanne, unless I'm missing something.

Yeah, I watched it again. This is how it looks like. Somebody else blood, device unseen, flows to the device which seems to be Aenys. Or flows from him if that's supposed to be the Rhaena/twins dead end.

Must say, this family tree thing is a great idea, but why not go with an actual family tree design or at least with names rather than opaque devices. This whole thing makes things really unnecessarily complicated.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, zajaz said:

Perhaps the show is going to pull a reverse Jaime. Instead of a character that many people hated in the beginning, only for them to love him afterwards, HotD is going to show Criston as a charming Knight in Shining Armor that many will ship with Rhaenyra as this sort of star-crossed romance that sadly can't be because how things work in Westeros... only for the fandom to hate him once they realize how much of a petty, unhealthy, and revenge-obssesed indivual he becomes once the whole affair (whatever the show reveal it was) happens.

Then again, if the HotD were to truly pull a Jaime, the show would have him confess he still loves Rhaenyra with all his heart at the Butcher's Ball.

Yeah, but the show still has a lot of work to do with him. In many of the reactions I've seen, people don't even notice him yet.