[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Hm.

It just took me to the HBO Facebook page. What am I supposed to be looking at? 

[zajaz]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Alyssa Baratheon wouldn't work because of the hair (if they still care about that).

Seeing as we have Rhaenys as a silver-haired Targaryen despite having a Baratheon mother, Alyssa Baratheon giving birth to silver-haired Jaehaerys Targaryen would not defy logic in-universe. Heck, Rhaenys' hair color is technically more accurate to book canon than her having black hair. The fact that she was born with black hair and purple eyes was a retcon from GRMM's part, IIRC.

Edited September 2, 2022 by zajaz

[C.T. Phipps]

It's the official HBO Targaryen family tree

I am now officially headcannoning that young Alysanne Targaryen should be played by Tessa Thompson.

And some of their children are biracial in appearance and others white looking.

Why?

Because MAGIC DRAGON BLOOD.

Edited September 1, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

8 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I am now officially headcannoning that young Alysanne Targaryen should be played by Tessa Thompson.

Funny enough, in TWOIAF, young Alysanne looks like Elizabeth Olsen.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/d/df/Jaehaerys%26Alysanne.jpg

[zajaz]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Funny enough, in TWOIAF, young Alysanne looks like Elizabeth Olsen.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/d/df/Jaehaerys%26Alysanne.jpg

Is that Ewan McGregor as a young Jaehaerys?

Edited September 1, 2022 by zajaz

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Funny enough, in TWOIAF, young Alysanne looks like Elizabeth Olsen.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/d/df/Jaehaerys%26Alysanne.jpg

I never really liked that fanart, because it makes Jaehaerys look like a worrier, like his old man, and I tend to think a fanart should attempt to do the character justice and not visually depict them strangely. 

Burning S8 Sansa and Arya and Bran would warm my cold, dead, heart. 

[Winterfell is Burning]

While it's understandable they wanted more diversity, I think the Velaryons were pretty much the worst family for them to change the race of (apart from the Targaryens) because of all the inbreeding and connection to Targaryens.

The best choice would be Criston Cole, since they already indicated he has Dornish blood, and would make him even more a fish out of water than he was, plus would add a reason why Rhaenyra wouldn't want to have her kids with him.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Fire & Blood retconned Alysanne’s appearance. When the Amok portraits were done, she was described as tall and regal, with a traditional Targaryen look. In FnB, she was described as very petite, with blue eyes and curly yellow-gold hair, and was noticeably less pretty than her sister.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

24 minutes ago, zajaz said:

Is that Ewan McGregor as a young Jaehaerys?

Looks more like Russell Crowe to me.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[zajaz]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Fire & Blood retconned Alysanne’s appearance. When the Amok portraits were done, she was described as tall and regal, with a traditional Targaryen look. In FnB, she was described as very petite, with blue eyes and curly yellow-gold hair, and was noticeably less pretty than her sister.

I've read somewhere on social media that the Strong kids appearance was also retconned, but I can't find anything about that (besides the fact that GoT lore extras depicted them as having valyrian hair, but we can ignore that as a show invention).

Edited September 2, 2022 by zajaz

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, zajaz said:

I've read somewhere on social media that the Strong kids appearane was also retconned, but I can't find anything about that (besides the fact that GoT lore extras depicted them as having valyrian hair, but we can ignore that as a show invention).

I don’t think their appearances were mentioned in TPATQ, which came out before TRP, although they were referred to as bastards.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I am now officially headcannoning that young Alysanne Targaryen should be played by Tessa Thompson.

Well that's not fair play.  Who can ever disagree with more Tessa Thompson?

[C.T. Phipps]

48 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

While it's understandable they wanted more diversity, I think the Velaryons were pretty much the worst family for them to change the race of (apart from the Targaryens) because of all the inbreeding and connection to Targaryens.

The best choice would be Criston Cole, since they already indicated he has Dornish blood, and would make him even more a fish out of water than he was, plus would add a reason why Rhaenyra wouldn't want to have her kids with him.

I support them choosing the Velaryons for the following reasons:

1. They're visually distinct from the rest of Westeros

2. They're neck-deep into the politics of the Dance of the Dragons. Thus, the POC are not on the sidelines or minor characters.

3. It allows more than just one single black character in the books but multiple ones.

4. It certainly allows the audience to understand the question-ability about Laenor's heirs bastardry.

5. It reduces the number of pale platinum haired character on screen.

6. It implies show Valyria isn't some sort of Master Race Melnibone and a more cosmopolitan collection of races even if the Dragon Riders all look like the Targaryens (or the Targaryen house looks that way).

Edited September 2, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Lord Varys]

I honestly don't buy the weirdo take that the Strongs or Hightowers aren't *good enough* to have a black or PoC background.

Not only is it silly to cast such actors only for *good roles*, but there is also no necessity to write Otto or Alicent or Ormund or Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, and the children as *clear villains*. There is a lot of leeway in this regard in the show.

Ditto with the Strongs. Rhaenyra's elder sons all having somewhat darker skin could have been a lot of fun when Viserys pretty refuses to see it.

Otto and Alicent Hightower wouldn't be much different characters from Corlys Velaryon as portrayed in the show. Or does anybody believe that Corlys Velaryon wouldn't have done everything in his power to push Rhaenyra out of the succession if Laena had married Viserys to give him a string of sons?

Don't be ridiculous. They are not that different as characters, and they sure as hell want more or less the same thing.

Thinking about that - if Laena had become Rhaenyra's stepmother tensions could have diffused if Rhaenyra had been married to Laenor as it happened. Which raises the very interesting question - something George apparently never thought about - why nobody ever considered marrying Rhaenyra to a Hightower - say, Gwayne Hightower who is Alicent youngest brother in the book, or one of Otto's nephews (the future Lord Ormund, say)? That could have worked wonders to reduce the tensions in the family ... you wouldn't need incest for that, just common style double marriages as they were not uncommon in real world nobility.

In light of the gigantic Hightower family there is no chance that no suitable Hightower husband for Rhaenyra was available.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Fire & Blood retconned Alysanne’s appearance. When the Amok portraits were done, she was described as tall and regal, with a traditional Targaryen look. In FnB, she was described as very petite, with blue eyes and curly yellow-gold hair, and was noticeably less pretty than her sister.

It is only a slight retcon, I think, the hair and the eyes didn't change, but her size and build may have been changed somewhat.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Lord Varys

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys @The Bard of Banefort

This is how GRRM described GQA to Amok:
"Tall and straight, unbowed by time, she had high cheekbones, clear blue eyes. Age left crow's feet around her eyes and laugh lines about her mouth, but her face never lost its strength. She was a fine archer and hunter in her youth, and loved to fly atop her dragon to all the distant parts of the realm. Alysanne was slim of waist and small of breast, with a long neck, a fair complexion, a high forehead. In old age her hair turned white as snow. She wore it in a bun, pulled back and pinned behind her hear."

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Good_Queen_Alysanne_and_Rhaenyra

Don't see any retcons.

[The Bard of Banefort]

19 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Lord Varys @The Bard of Banefort

This is how GRRM described GQA to Amok:
"Tall and straight, unbowed by time, she had high cheekbones, clear blue eyes. Age left crow's feet around her eyes and laugh lines about her mouth, but her face never lost its strength. She was a fine archer and hunter in her youth, and loved to fly atop her dragon to all the distant parts of the realm. Alysanne was slim of waist and small of breast, with a long neck, a fair complexion, a high forehead. In old age her hair turned white as snow. She wore it in a bun, pulled back and pinned behind her hear."

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Good_Queen_Alysanne_and_Rhaenyra

Don't see any retcons.

Wasn’t there another quote where he compared her to a movie portrayal of Eleanor of Aquitaine? 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Wasn’t there another quote where he compared her to a movie portrayal of Eleanor of Aquitaine? 

Katherine Hepburn. The Lion in Winter. Its in the link. (To be honest, Alysanne is far more tame than Eleanor of Aquitaine, whether we're talking about the real person or her film counterpart.)

[C.T. Phipps]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I honestly don't buy the weirdo take that the Strongs or Hightowers aren't *good enough* to have a black or PoC background.

Not only is it silly to cast such actors only for *good roles*, but there is also no necessity to write Otto or Alicent or Ormund or Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, and the children as *clear villains*. There is a lot of leeway in this regard in the show.

1. The Hightowers are generally regarded with about the same level of disdain as the Freys and with good reason. It's a scummy family of contemptible social climbing trash that I am happy to see exterminated as a line. Sadly, it's a shame they continue onward. There's no reason not to do them as POC versus white but the idea they're not some of the worst people in ASOI&F is a hard sell for me. I look forward to seeing them destroyed in the show. You could write them differently but you could also say Walder Frey had a point.

2. Really, the argument regarding the Strongs is the Strongs aren't that important to the show. Harwin and his dad get killed fairly on the dance and sadly their children are wiped out pretty early as well. They also have no real importannce to the overall politics and twists and turns of the Dance behind the scenes.

I mentioned earlier there's no much point talking about this, though, because it's all "might have been." They decided to go this direction and it will undoubtedly inform future storylines and characters. Mind you, I have suggested a good potential role for an actor of color would be Dunk and a lot of fans were upset about that as well.

(Dunk being a Kings Landing born man certainly makes it possible even if now people will potentially worry about what this means for Brienne)

Edited September 2, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I honestly don't buy the weirdo take that the Strongs or Hightowers aren't *good enough* to have a black or PoC background.

Don't think you're responding to me here, but just in case to clarify, no, it has nothing to do with the Strongs not being "good enough."  That's not the point at all with them.  It has to do with, presumably, Rhaenyra's first three looking like Strongs and the "slander" that ensues.  If that's based on skin color, that's a very uncomfortable change, which should be obvious.

As for the Hightowers, well, no, not all of them.  But in my reading of the text Otto is certainly one of the primary "villains," or at least one of the least likeable characters that is most responsible for the war other than Viserys himself.  And Otto is clearly going to be the main Hightower at least in the first season.  So, those would be my main initial concerns.  And thus far they've been borne out by..Otto being one of the least likeable characters and primarily responsible for fomenting the civil war in the first two episodes.  Who woulda thought?

Further, Aemond is perhaps the only abject villain in the story (at least in terms of main cast), and Aegon II has pretty much no redeeming qualities.  So, yeah, those three are why I'd be reticent making them the black family.  

[Denam_Pavel]

Valyrian and Velaryon sound almost identical, if they also look and are dressed exactly the same as the Targaryans I do think a lot of show viewers will miss the distinction. And Corlys, Leana and Baela are cooler then the Hightowers. And Laenor will be much more sympathetic character then even show Alicent.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Denam_Pavel