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[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion


Ran
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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The crucial slander is that Laenor is unable to father a son who looks like him.

Huh?  The crucial slander isn't directed towards Laenor, it's directed towards Rhaenyra and the supposed illegitimacy of her heirs.  

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I doubt they go with the kind of racist slur we get in the book as the boys looking 'common' because they have non-Valyrian hair (and eyes).

This could be illustrated via the boys having a different skin tone than Laenor. Which I guess they will do in the show since there the boys will be lighter-skinned than they should be as sons of Laenor.

Who knows what they are gonna do, but regardless that isn't the point.  The point was if it was the Strongs that were the black family, then the "slander" would be that the kids look black - which obviously would lead to unwanted controversy for the show.  Now, with the Velaryon's as the black family, the "slander" may well include that the kids all look white - which HBO and subsequently the media obviously will be much more comfortable with as that clearly wouldn't lead to nearly as much controversy and twitter warring.

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And, as I said, he basically as the same goals as black Corlys, does he not?

Sure.  Doesn't change the fact Corlys is depicted as badass and likeable both in the books and the show whereas Otto decidedly is not.  That's the difference.  And yes, I do like what the show has done with Alicent making her more well-rounded and much more sympathetic.  Hopefully that continues and totally agree there, but that's why I didn't mention her and focused on the other three.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

From what we heard about show Aemond

A way to deal with that if you see it as an issue could be to have Aegon II as a pretty much white guy since one could easily have cast Otto as a darker-skinned actor, Alicent as a lighter-skinned woman and Aegon II as white passing ... while, perhaps, Daeron would appear more mixed.

 

This is all just demonstrating why the Velaryons were the right and obvious choice.  You're doing mental gymnastics for how it would work with the Hightowers whereas with the Velaryons you can just cast black/multiracial actors and have them depicted how you wanted to in the first place.

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, I must say from an anti-racist perspective it strikes me as pretty powerful to have a black prince to be Joffrey-like evil king - that isn't the standard role black actors are playing in American televsion, is it? The big point about this diversity thing is to get away from tokenism and type-casting, where minorities are mainly cast to play supporting roles.

A black Corlys actually fits pretty well into that old framework, since he clearly is just a supporting character, his children will die soon, and while the roles of his granddaughters might be expanded they aren't main characters, either.

You're looking at this way too longterm whereas the casting choices, by necessity, had to focus on the first season and not much more hypothetical later seasons.  And Corlys almost certainly will be a much more featured character in the first season than Aegon II.  Hell, I'd suspect (hope?) Laenor and Laena will be as well.

22 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Didn't THR report that the first two episodes of HotD were on par with season 6 of GoT in terms of ratings?

If you read the link:

Quote

HBO also says that the series premiere has grown to almost 25 million viewers across platforms in the week since it premiered. House of the Dragon is on its way to posting audience figures similar to the latter part of Game of Thrones: Over the length of their runs, the final three seasons averaged 25.7 million, 32.8 million and 44.2 million viewers, per HBO.

Again, these are the cumulative numbers - which outlets do rely on the networks themselves to provide.  I agree that on its face it seems weird simply trusting HBO, but since these type of estimates are widely reported and accepted I'm inclined to trust it.  You'd have to ask more of an industry junky for how this all works in the current streaming age when the Nielsen/on-air viewing is going to be a fraction of the actual audience.  Hell, even GoT's Nielsen ratings never got that high.  Topped out at averaging 11.99 million in the final season.  And that was before HBO Max.

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

What I mean is if the rating for HotD is say 2.2 million and the rating for GOT was 11.9 million wouldn’t their proportional difference be the same because the GOT number is also not accounting for off-air audience? 

See above.  Again, HBO Max didn't exist during GoT.  I watched even the final season at 9:00 "on air," but I certainly don't now for HotD.

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15 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

If you read the link:

Again, these are the cumulative numbers - which outlets do rely on the networks themselves to provide.  I agree that on its face it seems weird simply trusting HBO, but since these type of estimates are widely reported and accepted I'm inclined to trust it.  You'd have to ask more of an industry junky for how this all works in the current streaming age when the Nielsen/on-air viewing is going to be a fraction of the actual audience.  Hell, even GoT's Nielsen ratings never got that high.  Topped out at averaging 11.99 million in the final season.  And that was before HBO Max.

See above.  Again, HBO Max didn't exist during GoT.  I watched even the final season at 9:00 "on air," but I certainly don't now for HotD.

The Hollywood reporter article also states part of the none on-air views include later viewing on HBO cable and in a previous article they stated about 31% of GOT views overall came from on-air views: 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/house-of-the-dragon-tv-ratings-sunday-aug-21-2022-1235203367/amp/ 
 

31% is more than 22% but not by that much. And it feels weird not having third party confirmation of how many are actually watching. The only thing we have, which is the Nielsen Rating has it lower than the GOT season 1 premiere. 
 

Obviously more people watched House of the Dragon but HBO still had streaming capabilities before HBO max.

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3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

31% is more than 22% but not by that much. And it feels weird not having third party confirmation of how many are actually watching. The only thing we have, which is the Nielsen Rating has it lower than the GOT season 1 premiere. 
 

Obviously more people watched House of the Dragon but HBO still had streaming capabilities before HBO max.

As stated in your link, making a like-to-like comparison between the HotD premiere and GoT's in 2011 is essentially impossible.  If you wanna get more in the weeds on this have at it, but the point is HotD is clearly a success and lots of people are watching - just based on the Nielsen rating the fact the second episode improved upon the first has always been a great sign for a show.  Anyone using the figures to suggest otherwise almost certainly has an ulterior motive.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

A black Corlys actually fits pretty well into that old framework, since he clearly is just a supporting character, his children will die soon, and while the roles of his granddaughters might be expanded they aren't main characters, either.

I mean Corys wins the Dance more than anyone and ends up ruler of the kingdom.

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I liked it. The bridge scene was a highlight. I think all the actors are doing a great job but Mysaria's characterization remains a disappointment. Definitely feels like a letdown (the accent did not bother me, it's really only the way they decided to write the character). But still, this is only episode 2 and I keep that in mind.

I'm loving the depth into Alicent's character, this was a smart choice. We all know that most book fans favor the Blacks, not just because of Rhaenyra but also because of her supporters, so if they can make the Greens stand out and put them on a similar level, I think, from the audience perspective, the Dance will be really exciting and divisive and will create some interesting convos. For example, I'm really curious as to how they will portray Aegon and his siblings. The way the book is written clearly demonstrates a biased, or a "he said-she said" perspective from the maesters, and if the show was adapted like that, it would limit the show's potential; and it has a lot of potential in my opinion, they can create a really great 3-dimensional, open to interpretation, story here. Hoping I'm explaining myself well here.

I don't mind at all the lack of humour. This story is an all-around tragedy and I think so far they've nailed the tone of it (even if we're only in the prologue of things). I agree with others have said: the biggest problem this show has, is that it comes after GOT and will be compared to it all the time.

Can't wait for the older actors and the new characters and for the conflict to kick in!

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Huh?  The crucial slander isn't directed towards Laenor, it's directed towards Rhaenyra and the supposed illegitimacy of her heirs.

Of course, I meant the racial slander.

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Who knows what they are gonna do, but regardless that isn't the point.  The point was if it was the Strongs that were the black family, then the "slander" would be that the kids look black - which obviously would lead to unwanted controversy for the show.  Now, with the Velaryon's as the black family, the "slander" may well include that the kids all look white - which HBO and subsequently the media obviously will be much more comfortable with as that clearly wouldn't lead to nearly as much controversy and twitter warring.

Well, I'd not really care about such controversity. The criticism one should, in my opinion, take seriously is the whole type-casting thing ... which is why I think the folks viewing Mysaria as a kind of Dragon Lady cliché actually do have a point. But black actors playing villains or unsympathetic - yet powerful - characters isn't something folks should complain about. Or if they do then this isn't something one should take all that seriously.

But then - I never said Hightowers and Strongs. They just made one family black, so we could have gone with either of the other suggestion. Or none at all and just more diversity among the unaffiliated characters.

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Sure.  Doesn't change the fact Corlys is depicted as badass and likeable both in the books and the show whereas Otto decidedly is not.  That's the difference.  And yes, I do like what the show has done with Alicent making her more well-rounded and much more sympathetic.  Hopefully that continues and totally agree there, but that's why I didn't mention her and focused on the other three.

Corlys isn't 'badass' in the book. He is an old done man, constantly wringing his hands and urging everybody to make peace ... and Larys Strong leads him around by the nose. Not to mention that he has a very unhealthy obsession with the weirdo marriage of Jaehaera and Aegon the Younger, both preteen children at the time.

Otto is not particularly sympathetic in the book, but no villain either. And pretty competent. His Triarchy scheme destroyed pretty much everything the Sea Snake built.

Not sure how sympathetic Corlys comes across after trying to pimp out his sweet little girl to an old king. And while the private war speech kind of sounded badass ... I'm not sure people have to see this alliance as a good thing.

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

This is all just demonstrating why the Velaryons were the right and obvious choice.  You're doing mental gymnastics for how it would work with the Hightowers whereas with the Velaryons you can just cast black/multiracial actors and have them depicted how you wanted to in the first place.

I'm not really doing mental gymnastics, I think most arguments against my idea have little merit. I'm just entertaining them for your benefit.

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

You're looking at this way too longterm whereas the casting choices, by necessity, had to focus on the first season and not much more hypothetical later seasons.  And Corlys almost certainly will be a much more featured character in the first season than Aegon II.  Hell, I'd suspect (hope?) Laenor and Laena will be as well.

The first season then has only two crucial Hightowers - Otto and Alicent, i.e. a not-so-sympathetic character and a more sympathetic character. Could have worked. Vaemond Velaryon will be black, too, and he is apparently going to be an asshole character.

Laenor and Laena won't be around for long.

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean Corys wins the Dance more than anyone and ends up ruler of the kingdom.

Corlys loses pretty much everything he has built in the Dance, and he kind of acts like a man-child when his dragonrider wife dies in battle. How else should a dragonrider die but in battle?

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28 minutes ago, DMC said:

As stated in your link, making a like-to-like comparison between the HotD premiere and GoT's in 2011 is essentially impossible.  If you wanna get more in the weeds on this have at it, but the point is HotD is clearly a success and lots of people are watching - just based on the Nielsen rating the fact the second episode improved upon the first has always been a great sign for a show.  Anyone using the figures to suggest otherwise almost certainly has an ulterior motive.

I agree it’s impressive the numbers went up, but if the last season of GOT had a Nielsen ranking of 11.9 that only included 31% of total views meaning the real number must have been much higher. 
 

It’s a success no matter what, but I think the drop from season 8 was much bigger than stated and now they are slowly building back up to that level.

Edited by butterweedstrover
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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This feels like kind of an insecure move, to be honest. Ratings aside, I don’t think the show has been as big in the US as they thought it would be, which is still their largest market. It also really undercuts all the talk from HBO about how they aren’t worried about TROP.

I don't know what ratings they were aiming for when they greenlit HotD, but 20-25 million viewers is fantastic numbers by any standard. That said, I don't really understand what they gain by releasing the episode on Youtube when RoP debuts. It feels petty.

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25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys loses pretty much everything he has built in the Dance, and he kind of acts like a man-child when his dragonrider wife dies in battle. How else should a dragonrider die but in battle?

1. He ends up being the Hand of the King and Regent of the Realm until the time that he dies of natural causes.

2. He manages to reestablish the Targaryen lineage of his family while also guaranteeing his own lineage carries through with them.

3. His "weird obsession" with Aegon the Younger marrying his cousin was an attempt to preemptively prevent another Dance by reconciling the two factions in an obvious way--which becomes unnecessary after Aegon II's lineage is extinguished.

4. I don't think a man being upset that his wife died needlessly (If Rhaenyra or her children had been present, they would have won without casualties) is a remotely strange sentiment.

5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't know what ratings they were aiming for when they greenlit HotD, but 20-25 million viewers is fantastic numbers by any standard. That said, I don't really understand what they gain by releasing the episode on Youtube when RoP debuts. It feels petty.

Saying the show is underperforming is, bluntly, insane. OBI-WAN, one of the most successful shows Disney has done, had about 4 million views.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I'd not really care about such controversity.

I wouldn't either!  But HBO and the showrunners would and should and are right to anticipate it obviously would generate much more negative press (or social media kvetching, which these days I guess is part and parcel of "press").  It's very naive to think it wouldn't.  And yeah, Mysaria is basically being depicted as another Shae and that is generating complaints - rightly so in that case.

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys isn't 'badass' in the book. He is an old done man

Ok, he was a badass in the books that is now too old to be.  Distinction without a difference.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And while the private war speech kind of sounded badass ... I'm not sure people have to see this alliance as a good thing.

They don't have to, of course, but most viewers are gonna.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not really doing mental gymnastics, I think most arguments against my idea have little merit.

Your argument doesn't have any merit and I'm tiring of entertaining it for your benefit.  The Strongs make no sense and Corlys > Otto - which is essentially the decision in the first season - is a no brainer.  You are looking at this from the perspective of trying to resolve the Targaryen family tree over three hundred years.  It's absurd to think that was much of a concern to the people making the show.

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I agree it’s impressive the numbers went up, but if the last season of GOT had a Nielsen ranking of 11.9 that only included 31% of total views meaning the real number must have been much higher. 

Sure!  And the overall number of people who viewed HotD increases when you go from "on-air" viewing to first-night viewing to how many watched over the entire week.  Nobody is saying HotD's ratings are matching the final season of GoT - they're not - the point is they're in the ballpark.

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Having some inside dope on the corporate side of things, the pose from HBO and is international partners that that were highly confident the show would be a big hit was a bit of PR. There were some real fears. I was told this by someone employed by a close partner of HBO who I know is in regular contact with executives there, who basically shared that there were executives "shitting themselves" as the premiere approached.

 

But those concerns no longer exist. The huge viewership of the show 3 years after the previous show ended in controversy, the huge viewership not just in the US but in the UK and Europe, has proven that people want more. Releasing the episode for free is not new for HBO to do, but the timing is certainly twisting the knife at Amazon, giving people who aren't sure what they want to see a chance to see and compare the shows directly if they have Prime but not HBO. To me, that's a sign of confidence, not a lack of it.

Edited by Ran
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4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Jeff spent 250 million dollars on the rights before the production. I think he is already realizing he screwed up.

Poor Jeff Bezos. I'm sure he must be worrying about what is he going to eat, or where is he going to sleep this night. Do you guys know where I can donate some money for him?

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In any case, I've just re-watched last episode, and, by the gods is Mysaria's accent worse than I remembered. I know at this point I'm beating a dead horse, but I swear each time I hear it sounds even more forced and cringey. Which is a shame, since I'm sure the actress could match Matt Smith if only the writers / directors let her use her natural accent, or at least tell her to use a more 'relaxed' one.

Edited by zajaz
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