[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, zajaz said:

Well, it could be that he considered Aemma his wife more than his cousin. Saera's bastards still exist, I guess (maybe for book readers only, though), and he said Rhaenys was his favourite cousin, as in present; Aemma died half a year ago, so...

I think he's just being polite.

Not every dialogue is going to be full of important meaning.

[Rockroi]

A worthy, but by no means outstanding, follow-up to the premier.  

What I liked:

The Inverted Shadow of King Joffery Baratheon I: The show knows who its talking to.  When Vioserys is being spoken to by Lord Corlys about how to wage war on the Stepstones, Viserys mocks the Lord by bringing up crazy things he could do- like mounting the Crabeater's head on a pike.  This is the exact opposite of another King we "remember" who is 200 years in the future- Joffery, who must have wanted to mount every head in the realm.  Here, the viewer has to hear the echoes of Joff and Cersei and Robert and maybe even Aerys - Kings and a Queen who wanted any quarrel to end in, literally, Fire and Blood.  But Viserys is a different King and to other ears, this may sound like weakness, but we are reminded of these bad rulers and, instinctively, take the King's side.  For now.  We can see how these rulers can make mistakes- out of fury or caution and sometimes even a good decision leaves lord unhappy.  I think the show is doing a good job of showing the weight of authroity.  And its peril. 

The Queen Who Was Never Was And Her Bad Ass Husband: The show illustrates how one van maneuver and how they weave their webs.  Lord Corlys is capable, proud and a huge power.  The two make an incredible couple and I like watching them move and exploit.  I will say that watching Rhaenys interact with Rhaenyra was very good and showed that just because they are women, does not mean they are on the same side (yet).  And when the King turns his back on them they enlist the help of Daemon..  Because its the right play.  The Dance of Dragons has begun.  

The Queen Who Should Be: I think that Rhaenyra jumps down off her dragin, she reveals her ambition and her abilities.  She knows Daemon won't kill her and knows she can speak to him.  In doing so, he reveals that his second bride is not even pregnant, thus undermining his play.  She then leaves him with one move- kill her or walk away?  Daemon, wisely, chooses the latter. This shows the Princesses' persona: serious, calculating, direct and poised.  This is a good character that is fantastic to watch.

The Soon to Be Mad Queen: I like the understated detail that Alicent Hightower cannot seem to control her worries, even when feigning poise and decency.  She says the right things, but can barely control her anxiety, worry and fear.  And once she is the Queen... what will stop her from unleashing it?  The show is giving us small details and welcoming us to follow them.  

A Shot in the Dark: Cool scene where the King goes to Lord Strong and Strong gives him... spectacular advice.  Sure, maybe later we will be told that Corlys got to Strong foirst, but even still... that was good advice, ultimately that KIngs need to be wed, girls mature into women and Driftmark makes a better ally than an enemy.  Find the foolishness in those words.  And this from a third-level character.  The show is giving us a look- these people are competent and intelligent.  And we ignore them at our peril. And so does the King

The Opening: I think that's Old Vylaria that Blood is flowing through.  I dig it.  

What I am on the Fence About:

A Hand, Not a Fist: I am trying to wrack my brain as to what Otto Hightower's plan was?  I am not saying it was wrong, but his plan seems to have been, bring 2 Kingsguard, 20 men and ... bully or embarrass Daemon Targaryen?  My only thought is that Daemon would hold out but that he would, possibly, know that he could not murder the King's Hand, two Kingsguard and hope to get away with it.  So Daemon would see his predicament, dragon or not, and ... give up?  

The only saving grace to this scene is that this was the only way Otto could keep the King from going himself.  But that's a stretch.  He also had no hand in bringing the Princess to the action.  So, if that's true, what was his plan B?  Buy the egg?  It takes a relatively smart and capable character make a massive miscalculation and I don't see what he was relying on other than Daemon acting reasonably?  I don's see that, 

Pacing: This was a slow episode where not much happened and I only say that AGoT had a few seasons start off slow and then try to make up for it by rushing the last few episodes in an attempt to make up for lost time.  I hope I am wrong.  Also, I did not think the episode was bad at all, so maybe the pacing worked.  Its just something I'll keep an eye on.  

What I did not Like

Again, two weeks in a row- nothing to be terribly angry about.  This show is solid.  Will it get to spectacular is the only question.  

 

[Raksha 2014]

31 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

A weaker episode than the first one, as the plot was slower, though it managed to achieve some good tension in a few moments and the acting continues to be strong. I think I agree with people who may have trouble feeling hooked by the show, as the main issue continues to be the king ensuring he has a firm succession plan, which for a modern audience is not that compelling. However, as a book reader I understand it and I'm fine with it.

I was unimpressed by the title sequence. Same song, really? And what is this, Stone & Blood? I guess that was meant to be Viserys's stone miniature of the Freehold, but the camera movement was a bit too quick for me to really grasp the symbols that were shown.

Paddy Considine continues to be the best actor, but Milly Alcock was great as well. In terms of the dialogue, the scenes between their characters were the best, whearas other dialogue scenes were more reminiscent of meh-to-decent GoT scenes, such as Rhaenyra with Rhaenys, Daemon and Mysaria, and Daemon and Corlys. Mysaria is too much like GoT Shae.

Daemon's stunt was definitely ridiculous, especially somehow pulling away a portion of the KL's City Watch. I feel like that should have caused the biggest scandal, more so than him just claiming a largely empty castle on a small island.

The setup at the end with the upcoming war was fairly well done. I specifically appreciated the hidden menace brought on by the soundtrack. But why end on a shot of a guy in a mask instead of maybe having the silhouette of Caraxes approaching with Velaryion ships in the background? No one actually really cares about some bloodthirsty pirate character.

The episode did have some great shots, especially the foggy dawn confrontation on Dragonstone's causeway. The CGI of Rhaenyra on dragonback was not that good, but I liked the rest.

I appreciated some other smaller scenes, like Viserys seeking Lord Strong's counsel, the maggot scene, the choosing of the new Kingsguard, drinking in the memory of Ser Ryam Redwyne. 

I feel that the scene of Viserys announcing who he intends to marry should have been done in the great hall, as a declaration to the entire court, with Corlys storming out from there. But such a scene probably would have required an additional setup scene which we didn't get. While Viserys is king, he probably should have discussed this with Otto, like how Robert and Ned discussed the match between Joffrey and Sansa.

 

 Yes, it's Stone & Blood apparently.  

Paddy Considine continues to be the acting MVP of the show.  Milly Alcock is doing a great job.  I was charmed by the Laena/Viserys scene; the young lady playing Laena was perfect, going from bright little girl to Velaryon pawn speaking Mommy's lines (or Daddy's).  Eve Best was good, too.  Mysaria is, so far, pretty much useless arm candy for Daemon.  Daemon was a posturing brat in this episode; hopefully he'll be more useful in the next episode; I really want to see him team up with the Sea Snake (let a real man show him how real men behave).  

I liked the Viserys convo with Lord Strong too.  

I think that Viserys had already asked Otto Hightower for Alicent's hand in marriage; why else would she be standing at her father's side at a meeting of the Small Council?  There's no reason for her to be there.

Viserys should have told Rhaenyra that he was going to marry Alicent...

 

[zajaz]

Mysaria seems to have graduated from Shae's school of accents.

[Mladen]

I really like how this show is acted, I like how they interact and I like how time had been taken for this wonderful slowburn. The conversation between Rhaenys and Rhaenyra was especially delightful to watch as both are correct in some ways and both miss some points. Rhaenys is right about Kingdom, but wrong that it can never be changed. Rhaenyra is half-right about Rhaenys. It wasn't that she was unfit for Queen, it was the fact she's a woman. But once Rhaenys sees things through Rhaenyra's eyes about things being able to change, and Rhaenyra understands that she might well be Rhaenys 2.0, the two women will form an union...

[C.T. Phipps]

12 minutes ago, zajaz said:

Mysaria seems to have graduated from Shae's school of accents.

I feel like her acting would be much better if they just let her use her natural accent.

[zajaz]

It almost comes across as an Dragon Lady orientalist caricature. Do you think that she would sound like this if they had picked a caucasian actress to play Mysaria?

Edited August 29, 2022 by zajaz

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, zajaz said:

It almost comes across as an Dragon Lady orientalist caricature. Do you think that she would have sounded like this if they had picked a caucasian actress to play Mysaria?

I mean it doesn't sound anything like an Asian accent.

It sounds like bad Shae.

Edited August 29, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[zajaz]

7 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean it doesn't sound anything like an Asian accent.

It sounds like bad Shae.

It does sound like a 'oh, watch this foreign lady and her exotic accent' though. Also, my questian still stands: would Mysaria sound like this if they had chosen a caucasian actress to play her?

Edited August 29, 2022 by zajaz

[C.T. Phipps]

6 minutes ago, zajaz said:

It does sound like a 'oh, watch this foreign lady and her exotic accent' though. Also, my questian still stands: would Mysaria sound like this if they had chosen a caucasian actress to play her?

I mean....Shae.

So yes?

 

[C.T. Phipps]

Some thoughts on the show:

1. It bothers me that it should be a political statement about old men having sex with children but unfortunately that is kind of an issue these days. The Small Council and Westeros culture tries to normalize it but Viserys wins a lot of sympathy points for his visceral disgust that ends up overcoming it. Unfortunately, he doesn't win any points with the fact he still is willing to marry a girl his daughter's age or maybe a year or so older that has hit her age of majority. I think with things like the recent Baptist, Utah, and Matt Gaetz scandals that this is unfortunately topical and shouldn't remotely be topical.

2. I lost a lot of respect for Corys for the exact same thing that Hightower was doing except even worse. Mind you, we know that Viserys is going to heal the rift by marrying Rhaenyra to Laenor and what sort of problems that leads to but I think that should have been discussed as an option from the beginning. Rhaenyra as a married monarch is something that would be less controversial among the Lords of Westeros.

3. Viserys trying to stand up for himself by marrying an actual woman and yet playing into Ser Otto's hands is a really interesting character beat. It shows that he wants to be powerful but he's really a puppet and desperate for Otto's approval. The fact that "I cannot permit you to go" WORKS is something no Targaryen or king should have tolerated.

4. I think I like Alicent's character arc here as she's being forced into the scheming role by her father but is clearly anxiety ridden and terrified of all the repercussions that might hit her. I actually kind of think this is a valid take on her character from the books because we think of the scheming Cersei Alicent a lot but we don't think of her, "kindly nurse Alicent who used to read to Old King Joe"

5. I liked that Otto Hightower was within minutes of being killed by Daemon and all of his men when the dragon blasted them because, of course, Otto wouldn't back down. It's a sign that Otto isn't nearly as intelligent as he thinks he is outside of his comfort zone. He's so used to being the King (rather than the Hand of the King) that he utterly underestimated how far Daemon would go.

It was a nice, "Power is power."

6. I truly believe Ser Otto didn't think Rhaenyra would rule or attempt to assert her authority. In retrospect, it's clear they're going with the idea that Ser Otto believed she'd be another Viserys he could control assuming that she became queen before Viserys married his daughter. The fact she asserts herself as much as she does sets the stages for his betrayal--with the Kingsguard, her speaking up, and of course her rescuing him on dragonback.

7. Daemon really was doing all this to lure his brother out to speak with him on Dragonstone but he sent Otto instead. One wonders what would have happened if they could have just spoken in private and gotten themselves settled. It was a silly temper tantrum but I fully believe Daemon was ready to rid the court of the Hightower disease before Rhaenyra stepped in.

8. I'm glad Mysaria finally got some dialogue but the accent they've given her is atrocious and I wish they'd just let her speak like she'd actually comes from King's Landing (even if she didn't). I do like that Daemon is incredibly blind to his privilege and Mysaria is letting him know that she's likely to be executed when he's just going to get a scolding. I do like that we're avoiding her miscarriage, though.

Edited August 29, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[zajaz]

13 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean....Shae.

So yes?

 

You could be right, but Varys despite being from Lys sounded like Shae (though she was from Lorath) or Mysaria. Although we don't know how much time he spent in Essoe before arriving to King's Landing. For that matter, do we know when Mysaria arrived in Westeros? If by next season she still sounds like this, then I would call into question the writers choice.

Edited August 29, 2022 by zajaz

[zajaz]

12 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

"Power is power"

One of my favorite quotes from the show (which was written by D&D, I think). 'Power resides where men believe it resides'. Well, Varys, I'm sure a dragon would still be as powerful even if people did not believe they were.

Edited August 29, 2022 by zajaz

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

2. I lost a lot of respect for Corys for the exact same thing that Hightower was doing except even worse. Mind you, we know that Viserys is going to heal the rift by marrying Rhaenyra to Laenor and what sort of problems that leads to but I think that should have been discussed as an option from the beginning. Rhaenyra as a married monarch is something that would be less controversial among the Lords of Westeros.

You make an interesting point there. I guess that's one of the points where Rhaenyra being aged up doesn't fit all that well with the story as told. A betrothal for her could already be on the table, and as Viserys is pressured to remarry he could and should have deflected that by offering Rhaenyra's hand to Laenor. After all, even if he felt Rhaenyra was too young to marry at that point ... they could at least have arranged a betrothal.

In the book she is still pretty young at that time and it is clear, I think, that Viserys and Aemma intended that she wed the son they were hoping for. And then when Viserys marries Alicent the prospect of her marrying Aegon is still on the table despite the age gap until Viserys shuts it down. Only then are other marriage prospects seriously considered in the book.

[DMC]

Ok, what..THE FUCK..is up with all the symbolic stones?  The small council ones last week and this week were like "hey that's weird and random but whatever."  But now we have the Rhaenyra choosing Cole as the new KG scene where they have, like, hand carved stones for every knight's house.  Are we to assume House Targaryen was thrust into civil war due to being as aggressive at marketing merchandise as HBO/TimeWarner/Discovery/Whateverthefuckitisnow?

Anyway, from what I've read pretty much agree with the consensus.  A step down from last week but still a solid episode.  I'm really loving Milly Alcock as Rhaenyra thus far.  Feel like I'm going to dislike whomever's next just out of loyalty.  Same thing happened with The Crown and Claire Foy.

Add me to the list of those that don't think Alicent is being "whitewashed."  Well still obviously a victim, she was fully depicted as cleverly manipulative in this ep in my book.  And I agree with LV that Viserys being too afraid to tell Rhaenyra he's marrying Alicent at the perfect moment he provided for himself is meant to depict his weakness of character.  But I hasten to add that's not much of a weakness compared to the weaknesses on display by almost everyone else in his orbit.

The Rhaenys/Rhaenyra scene didn't feel right to me either.  It's not like it was written wrong and the acting was fine but..I dunno just something was off.  And yeah, the opening sequence was a let down.  My only thought is maybe it will change somehow for every episode?  If not, that's just the laziest effort ever. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

55 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

A worthy, but by no means outstanding, follow-up to the premier.  

Nice to see you're not dead.

[C.T. Phipps]

I admit, I made an Archer joke during this.

Mallory: Schoolgirls, Sterling? Laena is twelve years old!

Archer: I'm marrying Alicent Hightower instead! She's 15 or 16!

Mallory: And that's better?

Archer: I mean, isn't it?

[zajaz]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm really loving Milly Alcock as Rhaenyra thus far.  Feel like I'm going to dislike whomever's next just out of loyalty.  Same thing happened with The Crown and Claire Foy.

I feel like I must agree with this. I'm sure the older actresses will do an amazing job, but the more I see clips of Emma D'Arcy and Olivia Cooke, the more I feel like I won't be able to convince myself that those two are the same characters that Milly and Emily are portraying right now. I hope I'm proven wrong.

Edited August 29, 2022 by zajaz

[AlaerysTargaryen]

Viserys continues to be my favorite, what an amazing actor. I agree that Mysaria is too much like a bad Shae, very little development with her character and the bad accent breaks immersion. The actress is good in other stuff I've seen her , I don't know what went wrong with her in HOTD.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I admit, I made an Archer joke during this.

Mallory: Schoolgirls, Sterling? Laena is twelve years old!

Archer: I'm marrying Alicent Hightower instead! She's 15 or 16!

Mallory: And that's better?

Archer: I mean, isn't it?

Pretty spot on.  Feel like Archer would also emphasize Alicent looks, like, 10 years older than Laena.