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[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion


Ran
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10 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Like I said, if the Starks are 8000 years old, everyone in the North is probably one.

Everyone in Westeros is descended from some random, poor, minor First Men clan member, if we are being honest.

Edited by zajaz
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2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's not ridiculous if the king doesn't make a mess out of it, which Viserys most certainly did.

Unless we're talking about ceremonial heads of state, of course hereditary monarchy is ridiculous.  What century are we living in?

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@Ran @Lord Varys

Couldn't one of Alysanne Blackwood and Cregan Stark's four daughters have married a Bolton? GRRM did say they had issue but didn't want to nail things down quite yet. Also, we can't forget the granddaughters of Serena Stark by Robard Cerwyn and Osric Umber, even if that isn't quite the same thing as a direct Stark-Bolton match. Incidentally, I wonder why Cregan Stark didn't consider marrying Barba Bolton in-between Arra Norrey dying and him meeting Black Aly.

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40 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Like I said, if the Starks are 8000 years old, everyone in the North is probably one.

We’ve seen the Arryns die out once already in the direct line with Lady Jeyne, who was a lesbian.  They’ll probably die out again with Sweetrobin.  But the inheriting relative just takes the Arryn surname.  I expect the same has happened with the Starks.

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Just now, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Ran @Lord Varys

Couldn't one of Alysanne Blackwood and Cregan Stark's four daughters have married a Bolton? GRRM did say they had issue but didn't want to nail things down quite yet. Also, we can't forget the granddaughters of Serena Stark by Robard Cerwyn and Osric Umber, even if that isn't quite the same thing as a direct Stark-Bolton match. Incidentally, I wonder why Cregan Stark didn't consider marrying Barba Bolton in-between Arra Norrey dying and him meeting Black Aly.

Of course, that's possible. That's why I said that no Bolton married into House Stark in the last 200 years, not the other way around. That's certainly possible, although I'd be surprised if it actually happened.

Indirect matches like the daughter of a Stark daughter married into another Northern house marrying a Bolton should have happened rather often. There are so many noble houses that this cannot be helped.

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16 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Ran @Lord Varys

Couldn't one of Alysanne Blackwood and Cregan Stark's four daughters have married a Bolton?

Not according to George's notes, which lists their husbands. Of course, he could change his mind at some point, but when he fixed the Stark tree there's not a Bolton to be seen.

 

16 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Also, we can't forget the granddaughters of Serena Stark by Robard Cerwyn and Osric Umber, even if that isn't quite the same thing as a direct Stark-Bolton match.

Right. We're talking about direct matches, though.

16 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Incidentally, I wonder why Cregan Stark didn't consider marrying Barba Bolton in-between Arra Norrey dying and him meeting Black Aly.

Maybe he did, and maybe the Boltons didn't care for it.

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35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But that was back in 153 AC when he still may have hopes for Aegon ... and when Aegon III still sat the throne and his two sons lived, and it looked like Viserys' branch would never actually inherit the Iron Throne.

When Viserys II becomes king he clearly knows his eldest son is a wastrel and a disgrace ... and he already has a dutiful and capable spare heir in his grown-up grandson Daeron - who just had produced his first son, giving the king his first great-grandson. While Daeron was still young Aegon would have been Viserys' only heir, of course, but by the time he became that changed.

By all accounts, Aegon had a great potential. Anything you can mention regarding a prince, he was talented at. but he had a terrible personality aswell. People don't get spoiled after the age of 18, and that's how old he was when he married Naerys.

Daeron I didn't need a regency at the age of 13 and Jaehaerys I eloped with Alysanne when he was 15 (maybe 14, I'm not sure). Aegon had to be a fleshed out personality by then, and still. He didn't marry Naerys to Aegon because he still had hopes for him, but because he wanted to continue tradition. This is a parallel of what Jaehaerys wanted to do with Aemon and Alyssa, but Alysanne stopped him. There wasn't someone to stop Viserys, and he clearly doesn't seem to have cared about things like that, considering how he ruined the life of all three of his children with that single decision. Not later on, but instantly. 

And Aegon had the capability to be a good ruler, and wouldn't even be worse than Henry VIII if he didn't legitimize his bastards.

 

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21 minutes ago, Ran said:

Not according to George's notes, which lists their husbands. Of course, he could change his mind at some point, but when he fixed the Stark tree there's not a Bolton to be seen.

Can you please tell us the names of the husbands?! And how far back did he fix the family tree? To Torrhen or Cregan because right now the Torrhen-Cregan era is a bit of a mess? Also, did George provide any reasons why Jonnel failed to sire children on no less than two wives or why Donnor and Errold Stark weren't married? Oh, and did he provide any explanation for the sobriquets ("One-Eye", "Blacksword", etc.)?

EDIT: Forgot to include Lyanna, daughter of Cregan.

Edited by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back
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From what i remember from Hoster Blackwood Jamie convo, last Blackwood-Bracken marriage & peace was after the conquest arranged by Queen Visenya with double marriage and peace for few gen.

Its not too close a kinship for their current gen. But then again current kinship of Riverland houses arent fleshed out except for Freys. While in Reach with big family trees of Tyrells & Hightowers everyone is like one big extended family like the days of Mern.

Feel like hive & mills Tytos returned were taken from poor Brackens in first place when Blackwood enjoyed big favor at court with Bloodraven & Betha.

In FAB, Blackwoods are cruel to Brackens destroying their lands and septs unprovoked for choosing Aegon side.Its only instance where poor Brackens arent made villain. But its mere undernote.

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15 minutes ago, Lightoftheast said:

From what i remember from Hoster Blackwood Jamie convo, last Blackwood-Bracken marriage & peace was after the conquest arranged by Queen Visenya with double marriage and peace for few gen.

I think you're misrecalling. Hoster says that the longest peace of late was during the time of the Old King. The Visenya brokered double-marriage was first mentioned in F&B, and it's not said to be the last such marriage at all.

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

I think you're misrecalling. Hoster says that the longest peace of late was during the time of the Old King. The Visenya brokered double-marriage was first mentioned in F&B, and it's not said to be the last such marriage at all.

I don’t remember the exact quote, but I thought the implication was that Egg/Betha brokered a double-marriage between the two families once he became king.

Edit: Looks like I was wrong. Hoster says the double-marriage occurred during “the Old King’s” reign, which I suppose means Jaehaerys. It still seems like the sort of thing Egg would try though.

@Ran If you had to venture a guess, when do you think we’ll find out Branda Stark’s backstory (the main series, Fire & Blood, etc.)? 

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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On 9/3/2022 at 5:35 AM, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

And for the record I don't see much difference between Otto and Corlys when one ignores the biased framing GRRM uses to present them through.

There's only one difference, Corlys accepted the king's and great council's decision even if he personally hated them and chose not to stir shit up even when he personally could have.

Otto ignores the GC and then brings it up when it suits him and we'll see what he'll do later.

For someone of his power and ambition, Corlys knows when he has lost, Otto so much. Show Lyonel Strong is right on that  much.

 

On 9/3/2022 at 6:47 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

Eh, I don't believe there's really a good answer because the idea of hereditary monarchy is already inherently ridiculous.

Nah, the idea of primogeniture is inherently ridiculous, Renly was right.

Imagine that if all had gone according to plan, Aegon the uncrowned would have followed his father and not Jaeharys.

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2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean her stating that Alicent's interest in Viserys' Warhammer habit isn't feigned is completely wrong. :)

Yeah, I think it’s pretty obvious Alicent is not happy and doesn’t want to be there. What stuck out to me was how this article claims Alicent is the hero of the show—and maybe so far she is. But I really hate how they made Alicent a victim rather than letting her be the ambitious plotter she was in the books. Even if she evolves into one, it will always be through the prism of her having been forced into this position against her will.

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