[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[butterweedstrover]

I like this episode more because it was slower as the premiere was going at a clipped pace.
 

But while I like dialogue, the dialogue was plot heavy bordering on exposition some times when the characters are explaining their positions.
 

The few moments of emotional weight are done with so few lines and long stretches of silence. The writing just isn’t that clever, witty, insightful, or engaging. The subtext and underlining tension just isn’t there.
 

But I find Alicent to be the best actor of them all, her performance is lifting the characterization to new levels, I mean it’s just brilliant and totally flying under the radar.
 

Milly reminds me why I hate Rhaenyra.  

[frenin]

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I like how we're seeing Viserys turn to Lyonel instead of the rest of his council for fair judgement. That said, it's weird that they didn't have anyone argue that getting remarried would cause a new succession crisis.

 

Tbf, had Viserys named his new son his heir right away, the lords would have rolled with it because it was  what most were expecting anyway, Viserys sticking to his guns was what gave Rhaenyra so much ground later on.

Btw, is it Alicent 15? Her age isn't given at the show and she could be 18 like in the books right?

Really loved the episode, much better than the first and i was thrilled  with the  first.

Daemon is far more manchild in the show, it's curious.

[chrisdaw]

That intro followed by that bloodmage info which is not in the text (and obviously had to come from GRRM). He's playing games I think. In text how the Valyrian's worked stone is a mystery, and Dany's blood melts stone in her wake the dragon (not so) dream.

I wonder if it's just teasing or with With Viserys likening Valyria to Dragonstone and Mysaria taking up residence if there won't be something in it.

Not that it'll be confirmed in this show but Rhaenyra's concern for the egg knowing it was Baelon's may be because she understands the egg contains his (and possibly her mother's) soul. It's something that in retrospect will have greater meaning when all the info is out there.

Edited August 29, 2022 by chrisdaw

[sifth]

Glad I'm not the only one who has issue with Mysaria. Not gona lie, I have a hard time making out what she's saying at times. It might be her accent. Shame too, because she's a very cool Varys type character in the book.

[EggBlue]

overall I liked the episode . I expected it to be slower than premiere. so not a big deal there.

starting with the opening , the blood running reminded me a bit of Tim Berton's Sweeny Todd's opening. lol . I liked its graphic but the theme song didn't suit it ,in my opinion . 

Laena Velaryon is so adorable. reading F&B I kinda assumed Corlys and Rhaenys expected Viserys to choose their daughter but didn't effectively work for it . maybe because they did not live in King's landing in the book  I wonder what show-viewers think of them now ... 

I also liked Rhaenys and Rhaenyra's conversation . judging by a previous shot when Rhaenys is looking on Rhaenyra choosing a new Kingsgaurd in a way that is more idealistic than the actual "order of things " , makes me wonder if Rhaenys sees a bit of her younger self in Rhaenyra and that's what sparks her unnecessary conversation with her that is not friendly but is enlightening . this actually makes sense with the books in my opinion . Rhaenys like Rhaenyra was an only child expecting to inherit the throne one day . and instead of playing by rules and taking her cousin or uncle as husband (you know, just to be safe in line of succession) she goes to someone who she probably likes a lot and will bring her even more wealth and power as if her own position is already safe. Rhaenyra isn't a far cry from that , she defies marriage to Laenor ( the best political match by all regards) and later secretly marries Daemon who is already her ally instead of marrying her younger brother to make peace with Hightower or allying herself with someone like Tyland Lannister who brings her wealth of house Lannister and his voice in small council.

I like that Alicent is pretty smart and has a subtle manipulation.

Misarya was a true let down . if only someone tells entertainment industry that Asian women do not sound like that when speaking English . not after years of living in a country that speaks common tongue .

finally , why was the episode called Rogue prince? he was just being a man child for two scenes , that's all.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

58 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

Nice to be seen!  And good to see you, too.

We need your Mac Jones and coaching decision hot takes!

[Rockroi]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

We need your Mac Jones and coaching decision hot takes!

No... no you don't.... (SPOILER ALERT- Its a shit show!) 

[EggBlue]

8 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Probably would have taken too long to talk about the recyclable Vulture kingdom. But I am curious if the non-reader audience is aware that Dorne is independent here.

I'm guessing they could mention Dorne's current independence in a future episode when they discuss whether a Dornish prince would be a good choice for Rahenyra's husband in order to unite the 7th kingdom with the IT .

 

 

[Khloey]

I liked the episode, not as much as the first one though. 8/10

I was a bit bothered by the absence of an original theme, until I started singing with the GOT Theme. Since GRRM wants to make a real franchise, it seems logical to take that, but I would have like an original one, perhaps with darker notes.

I like the idea of the bloodline running through stones but they should have spent a little more time on each "sigil/symbol" we see. So far I only noticed the first one (the Doom and Aegon I's crown), then I think Jaehearys and Alysanne with so many lines splurting representing the many children they had. And finally the last one which represents Rhaenyra though the necklace Daemon gave her.

I am not that bothered by Mysaria's accents, but maybe that's because english isn't my mothertongue.. I don't really get accents, except the scottish ones. On the other hand, I though Mysaria would be more Tyanna like, she seems quit dependent to Daemon, and not really having a will of her own. I don't know, but knowing her role in F&B, the character doesn't sound right to me.

Loved the scene on Dragonstones, which looks much better than in GOT, love my boy Caraxes

I like how Alicent is being portrayed as an anxious and resilient woman who does what she needs to do for her family. Still love Considine's acting for Viserys, you get that he's not an idiot king, but his incapability to make a stand really works against him. I also like how Rhaenyra comes to understand that even though she's been names Heir, the men in the small council intend to rule though her.

The thing that bugged me at the end though is the behaviour of Corlys and Rhaenyra.. They can't act surprise and storm out, they know the king is looking to remarry and Alicent is present at a small council meeting.. It was so obvious. Everyone would have guessed who the king had choose..

Can't wait for the next episode, the trailer looks promising

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I like her performance, for whatever it's worth. The accent doesn't bother me, it remains consistent, near as I can tell. The only issue, I'd say, is that later on a thing happens with Mysaria that may be some subtly-considered characterization... or could just be "Inscrutable character doing the inexplicable", depending on how generous you are to the writers.

But maybe HBO saw the complaints coming, which is why Mysaria was absent from the marketing after the initial push?

[David Selig]

The lack of dialogue in Fire and Blood is showing to be a serious problem for the show. The screenwriters have to invent almost all dialogue here, unlike in GoT's early seasons, and they are clearly nowhere near as good at this as GRRM which leads to a pretty mediocre dialogue for the most part.

Pretty average episode to me. Some of the scenes were very impressive visually (i.e. the one in the sept), the actors were quite good, but the dialogue and plot were pretty weak for the most part.

Rhaenyra serving as a cupbearer during the Couincil's meetings was weird, she seems too old for this. IIRC in the books this role was given to much younger kids. The heir of the realm being a cupbearer at 15 seems like a terrible idea.

The dialogue between Rhaenys and Rhaenyra was really cringey. It really hammered home the whole "Westerosi men would never support a woman for the throne" idea, yet the whole basis of the plot of the series is that half the realm actually supported Rhaenyra's claim during the Dance of the Dragons. And the lines the characters said were so unnatural.

Viserys doing nothing after Daemon took the Goldcloaks and seized Dragonstone makes no sense. This is a blatant rebellion.

The show version of Viserys seems too old and sick to be seriously considering marrying a 12 year old and waiting years before consummating the marriage. How old is Alicent supposed to be here?

The last scene was just silly, classic TV "surprising" twist that makes no sense. Viserys would have told Rhaenyra earlier for sure.

[Ran]

11 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But maybe HBO saw the complaints coming, which is why Mysaria was absent from the marketing after the initial push?

She attended the premiere and did some interviews. I think it's simply that her role is kind of mysterious and it seems she is working on something.

[EggBlue]

this is one of the show-reviewers that unlike a bunch I've seen , has actually paid attention to who's who and what's what ! no confusing Rhaenyra and Rhaenys , no thinking Rhaenys and Viserys are siblings and finally no opinion of "too many blonds"! 

enjoy!

 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

25 minutes ago, David Selig said:

The lack of dialogue in Fire and Blood is showing to be a serious problem for the show. The screenwriters have to invent almost all dialogue here, unlike in GoT's early seasons, and they are clearly nowhere near as good at this as GRRM which leads to a pretty mediocre dialogue for the most part.

I have to disagree on this one. We're two episodes in, and I don't really understand the critics' complaints about the dialogue. Sure, it's not "memorable" per se, but far from bad, IMO.

[Khloey]

Something else I noticed, so far, the music is basically GOt music, but during the episode I noticed a new theme that I really enjoy, we can hear it when Rhaenyra leaves from Dragonstone and when she walks to her father shortly after. I wonder if that'll be Rhaenyra's theme from now on..

[Daeron the Daring]

Hm. Interesting. It was definitely better for a second watch. 

[Frey family reunion]

47 minutes ago, Khloey said:

I am not that bothered by Mysaria's accents, but maybe that's because english isn't my mothertongue.. I don't really get accents, except the scottish ones. On the other hand, I though Mysaria would be more Tyanna like, she seems quit dependent to Daemon, and not really having a will of her own. I don't know, but knowing her role in F&B, the character doesn't sound right to me.

This has been the biggest missed opportunity IMO.  Mysaria should have been a breakout character, someone given carte blanche to chew up the scenary.  An actual "bad guy" for a show that really doesn't have one.  She could have been a combo of Littlefinger and Melisandre.  But instead we get a timid woman with a crush on Daemon.

[dbergkvist]

I'm not sure I like Rhaenyra's reaction at the end. She should have known that Alicent was going to marry somebody sooner or later anyways. And if she had somebody not in King's Landing, that means she'd have to leave King's Landing to take up her new husband's seat. And the king had just told her he wasn't marrying for love, and she had no reason to believe Alicent was either. And one would think would have grown up associating marriage with family strategy rather than with love. So all in all, Rhaenyra shouldn't have rushed to judgement about it. Confusion and "hmm, what will this mean?" would have been a better reaction.

Edited August 29, 2022 by dbergkvist
Clarification

[David Selig]

16 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I have to disagree on this one. We're two episodes in, and I don't really understand the critics' complaints about the dialogue. Sure, it's not "memorable" per se, but far from bad, IMO.

It's not bad, but it's not good either, it's mediocre IMO, which for such a dialogue heavy and high budget show isn't good enough.

Also, they need to add some humour soon, everyone on the show is deadly serious all the time, it's a bit too much. 

[Rockroi]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Otto seems to have channeled the stupidity of Rogar Baratheon in that scene. But I think when he prepares to leave for Dragonstone the actor has an expression on his face that indicates that he knows he is taking a pretty big risk there. Although I guess he wanted Viserys to stay behind so he had control of the situation and could escalate things to the limit, perhaps getting a chance to put Daemon down if it came to blows.

It may be that Viserys not being the greatest dragon fan caused folks to kind of forget that they were there and could be used. But it was always a problem with the setting that folks actually seem to think a bunch of swords make a difference when your opponent rides a huge dragon.

One thing I heard was that Otto knows he can't get the egg back; and he's not trying to.  What Otto is trying to do is deepen the divide between Daemon and Viserys. 

When Otto prepares to leave, he is extremely worried -- he knows that his position- Hand - is precarious because he has no land, he has no armies.  He just has the King's authority.  When that King retracts that authority, Otto has nothing.  And Otto wants it all.  He also knows that Daemon is eminently capable of killing him.  So Otto has to "cross the Trident" so to speak -- he has to take a big risk to get what he wants.  He wants Viserys all to himself with Daemon isolated and alone. Daemon has only been gone 6 months and Viserys has done nothing to cut him loose.  Viserys steals a dragon, steals dragonstone and the King does nothing.  But if Otto can get Daemon to do something rash?  

When Otto arrives, he is all insults.  He throws around bastards and whores and shams... and says that all this was beneath Viserys.  But we know just a few moments earlier Viserys was going to run to Dragonstone to face his brother.  Otto is ... not lying, but bullshitting.  And he's doing it well.  And he is egging (hehehe) on Daemon to do something dumb.  When the dragon rears its head up, Otto resets.  He tells his men to put their swords away. 

Now, we do not know his next steps, He could have continued with the insults.  Maybe Daemon takes a shot, maybe he does nothing.  But its possible (but not likely) Daemon would have issued a challenge or taken a swipe at somebody or MOST likely continue to refuse to yield.  Regardless, at that point Otto has his pretext regardless: he can return to Viserys and say "Daemon threatened us with his dragon.  He's a madman!"  If he takes out a few guards or a Kingsguard - all the better.  But regardless, Otto can deepen the rift.  And for his own ends. 

This is a layered moment and I think it paid dividends for Otto.

But . . . 

Note how that scene ends- with the Princess flying off and Otto standing looking up at her.  He knows that a new player has entered the queue and she has his attention.  He knows he misjudged her and they will be on opposite sides.  Soon.