[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 minutes ago, David Selig said:

It's not bad, but it's not good either, it's mediocre IMO, which for such a dialogue heavy and high budget show isn't good enough.

I think we have to remember that a lot of the dialogue in GoT was invented as well, even in the early seasons, and I personally don't see much difference.

And it's not like GRRM is above cringey dialogue either. There is a ton of it in the books too.

[dsjj251]

So does anyone have the confirmed ages of Laena and Rhaenyra as of episode 2. 

 

In Fire and Blood, Laena is 5 years older than Rhaenyra , but here if Laena is 12, and Rhaenyra was the babe in the belly in the Great Council  scene, then she is 13/14(assuming the great council was still in 101, and Jaehaerys still died in 103). 

[Khloey]

Viserys said Rhaenyra was 15 in this episode

[slant]

Oh so many replies already! 

I didn't like the title sequence too, like many others. Didn't like it because it looked too artificial... Like the Targaryen Sigil was just floating in mid air in the end. I didn't recognise any of the sigils and devices on the way. If it was supposed to be Old Valyria as modelled by Viserys... don't see the relevance to this show, although it would have been appropriate for the cancelled prequel set in Valyria. Hope this changes in future episodes. 

I didn't understand Daemon's stunt at all... like why did he do it if Mysaria was not actually pregnant? Really like Mysaria's character though, want to see what she becomes. 

The interaction between Syrax and Caraxes, was pretty cool to watch. Looking forward to Vaghar showing up. Also looking forward to the Manderleys, especially as they were written out of GoT. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

I guess it was actually first episode, but I really loved the accent Rhaenyra put on her Dracarys command. It sounded so much more natural and commanding than the way Daenerys used it.

As for this episode, i know i much more enjoy Rhaenyras character to Alicents, so not wishing for this to evolve into "more Allicent scenes and less Rhaenyras".

I guess the best way to say it is Allicent bores me a bit so far.

Eta: Loving Daemon and Shae so far as well.

Edited August 29, 2022 by DireWolfSpirit

[Khloey]

2 minutes ago, slant said:

I didn't like the title sequence too, like many others. Didn't like it because it looked too artificial... Like the Targaryen Sigil was just floating in mid air in the end. I didn't recognise any of the sigils and devices on the way. If it was supposed to be Old Valyria as modelled by Viserys... don't see the relevance to this show, although it would have been appropriate for the cancelled prequel set in Valyria. Hope this changes in future episodes.

I think it's supposed to represent the targaryan bloodlines that flows from Old Valyria, since the show is about succession, its makes sense but I think it could have been made a little better.

[butterweedstrover]

44 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I have to disagree on this one. We're two episodes in, and I don't really understand the critics' complaints about the dialogue. Sure, it's not "memorable" per se, but far from bad, IMO.

It's not bad, but it's not good either. 

The conversations either focus heavily on plot and establishing a character's positions on any given issue or (in the more sensitive scenes) is so light on actual dialogue nothing insightful or witty comes to the surface. 

GOT at least early on had a great man such scenes either between Tywin and Tyrion, Cersei and Ned, Baelish and Varys, etc. that had some underlining subtext and tension, here the stuff is straightforward and to the point saying all that needs to be said. 

[IFR]

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

The lack of dialogue in Fire and Blood is showing to be a serious problem for the show. The screenwriters have to invent almost all dialogue here, unlike in GoT's early seasons, and they are clearly nowhere near as good at this as GRRM which leads to a pretty mediocre dialogue for the most part.

As has been mentioned before, a good deal of earlier GoT dialog was invented or adjusted.

Could it possibly be that this dialog was good because... David Benioff and Dan Weiss are good writers? That it wasn't just some angelic residue of Martin's words that beautified and remade a couple of hack writers into something good? Perhaps adapting Martin's works well requires...talent?

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

The dialogue between Rhaenys and Rhaenyra was really cringey. It really hammered home the whole "Westerosi men would never support a woman for the throne" idea, yet the whole basis of the plot of the series is that half the realm actually supported Rhaenyra's claim during the Dance of the Dragons

I think these lines are perfectly believable coming from someone who was in this exact position and for whom the entire realm turned against explicitly due to her gender. Unlike us, Rhaenys hasn't read Fire and Blood and doesn't know what will happen.

[Khloey]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

GOT at least early on had a great man such scenes either between Tywin and Tyrion, Cersei and Ned, Baelish and Varys, etc. that had some underlining subtext and tension, here the stuff is straightforward and to the point saying all that needs to be said. 

To be fair, all the conversations you quote happened towards the end of the season. It's only the second episode, let's wait and give it a little more time. I think we'll have way more underlining subtext and tension once the kids of Rhaenyra and Alicent will be shown on screen.

[Mark Antony]

Dude who plays the sea snake is awesome. Mvp of the episode imo. Never thought I’d be so hype for the stepstones 

[Chad Vader]

Sea Snake and Daemon are carrying the show for me. I do like how Viserys keeps getting cut by the Iron Throne. People I watch with who havent read the books or histories are like why is this even getting screen time. Oh to be unsullied summer children.

[Fez]

44 minutes ago, slant said:

I didn't understand Daemon's stunt at all... like why did he do it if Mysaria was not actually pregnant? Really like Mysaria's character though, want to see what she becomes. 

My guess is he wanted the King to come so that he could speak one-on-one with him again. And/or he wanted to kill Hightower if he came instead (which I think would've happened if Rhaenyra hadn't shown up).

38 minutes ago, IFR said:

As has been mentioned before, a good deal of earlier GoT dialog was invented or adjusted.

Could it possibly be that this dialog was good because... David Benioff and Dan Weiss are good writers? That it wasn't just some angelic residue of Martin's words that beautified and remade a couple of hack writers into something good? Perhaps adapting Martin's works well requires...talent?

Yeah. Anyone who thinks Benioff is a simple hack needs to read his novels and short stories; he's a legit talented writer in his own right. There's a reason HBO wanted to work with him and had reached out about what ideas he might have for a show before the GoT stuff came together. It sure seems like burnout got to him eventually, but there's a lot of great stuff in the early seasons that was all him (/and Weiss, I don't know as much about his talent); like the Cersei/Robert conversation in S1.

[butterweedstrover]

41 minutes ago, Khloey said:

To be fair, all the conversations you quote happened towards the end of the season. It's only the second episode, let's wait and give it a little more time. I think we'll have way more underlining subtext and tension once the kids of Rhaenyra and Alicent will be shown on screen.

I’m willing to wait and see but we have seen no skill as relates to writing so far. No humor, wit, charm, or anything that stands out. 
 

The best stuff is plot related and what it reveals about character actions which is run of the mill stuff.

[slant]

16 minutes ago, Fez said:

My guess is he wanted the King to come so that he could speak one-on-one with him again. And/or he wanted to kill Hightower if he came instead (which I think would've happened if Rhaenyra hadn't shown up).

Okay so Daemon was needling Viserys? That makes more sense than my head canon... that he was acting out his fantasies. Another explanation was that the show was deepening the comparison to Maegor. But doing something to provoke Viserys makes a lot of sense, especially since the show shows that Viserys was angered enough to take extreme steps. 

[David Selig]

44 minutes ago, IFR said:

As has been mentioned before, a good deal of earlier GoT dialog was invented or adjusted.

Could it possibly be that this dialog was good because... David Benioff and Dan Weiss are good writers? That it wasn't just some angelic residue of Martin's words that beautified and remade a couple of hack writers into something good? Perhaps adapting Martin's works well requires...talent?

Benioff and Weiss are clearly hack writers, they proved it with every single episode after they run out of book material.

And yes, there are some good stuff here in there in the earlier seasons which is not from the books, but even hacks can have decent moments once in a while.

57 minutes ago, IFR said:

I think these lines are perfectly believable coming from someone who was in this exact position and for whom the entire realm turned against explicitly due to her gender. Unlike us, Rhaenys hasn't read Fire and Blood and doesn't know what will happen.

Wasn't Rhaenys second in the voting for Jaeherys heir out of 14 claimants in the show meaning she got plenty of support ? Or am I misremembering the first episode?

Anyway, Rhaenyra has been officially the heir for 6 months at this point yet not a single lord seem to be rebelling. Nobody is flocking to Daemon's side to offer support for his claim even after he took Dragonstone. And even if Rhaenyra had been a boy, Viserys would have been urged to remarry, because the Targs are pretty short on heirs.

[IFR]

13 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Benioff and Weiss are clearly hack writers, they proved it with every single episode after they run out of book material.

And yes, there are some good stuff here in there in the earlier seasons which is not from the books, but even hacks can have decent moments once in a while.

Ok. Well, fortunately we have two examples of adaptations from Martin's work in this particular world, so we'll see.

I expect this to be a good adaptation, but not without its flaws, and so it shall be fun to compare the merits and demerits of each series.

15 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Wasn't Rhaenys second in the voting for Jaeherys heir out of 14 claimants in the show meaning she got plenty of support ? Or am I misremembering the first episode?

She and Viserys were the only two real contenders, but the votes for Viserys far outstripped that for Rhaenys, so it wasn't much of a contest.

16 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Anyway, Rhaenyra has been officially the heir for 6 months at this point yet not a single lord seem to be rebelling. Nobody is flocking to Daemon's side to offer support for his claim even after he took Dragonstone. And even if Rhaenyra had been a boy, Viserys would have been urged to remarry, because the Targs are pretty short on heirs.

Rhaenys seemed to have taken all of this into account with her speech.

[DMC]

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

In the Red Keep they must have a miniaturist on payroll with no much work to do. How else would they bother to use those chess figures in the selection of the kingsguard. How useless were them, when the knights were all dressed in their colors and accompanied by standard-bearers?

Glad someone else is mentioning this.  The ostentatious and gratuitous stonework at the Red Keep is clearly going to tear the realm apart and y'all just aren't paying attention.

[Fez]

32 minutes ago, slant said:

Okay so Daemon was needling Viserys? That makes more sense than my head canon... that he was acting out his fantasies. Another explanation was that the show was deepening the comparison to Maegor. But doing something to provoke Viserys makes a lot of sense, especially since the show shows that Viserys was angered enough to take extreme steps. 

Yeah, I think so. Taking the specific egg he did only makes sense to me if he was trying to deliberately provoke Viserys. And since he seems to clearly still love his brother, to me this provocation only makes sense as a way to try to get a meeting with him (as opposed to setting up an assassination attempt or rebellion). 

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Glad someone else is mentioning this.  The ostentatious and gratuitous stonework at the Red Keep is clearly going to tear the realm apart and y'all just aren't paying attention.

Gotta make use of the guy's retainer in-between Warhammer 40K: Old Valyria edition commissions for the King; otherwise it's just wasted money

[slant]

44 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Wasn't Rhaenys second in the voting for Jaeherys heir out of 14 claimants in the show meaning she got plenty of support ? Or am I misremembering the first episode?

Rhaenys herself makes it clear that she did not have much support to the claim, so yes, the two eldest descendents of Jaehaerys were the strongest claims, but guess it is meant to be interpreted as Viserys was chosen by the lords, overwhelmingly, between those two. 

18 minutes ago, DMC said:

Glad someone else is mentioning this.  The ostentatious and gratuitous stonework at the Red Keep is clearly going to tear the realm apart and y'all just aren't paying attention.

Yes, I remember thinking the same thing. For whose benefit did they have the minifigures for those shortlisted to be part of the Kingsguard?  

13 minutes ago, Fez said:

Yeah, I think so. Taking the specific egg he did only makes sense to me if he was trying to deliberately provoke Viserys. And since he seems to clearly still love his brother, to me this provocation only makes sense as a way to try to get a meeting with him (as opposed to setting up an assassination attempt or rebellion). 

Yes... he is relatively calm till Rhaenyra asks which egg specifically. Only on hearing the answer does he get angry enough to take some action. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by slant
Added reply to same post instead of making two posts

[Daeron the Daring]

The one thing I realised (or rather, re-realised thanks to the show), is how much Viserys I and Daemon are affected by the parenting they received. Their mother, Alyssa died when they were really young, so young that Daemon shouldn't even be able to remember her, meanwhile their father, Baelon grow a bitter man after her death, seemingly nothing ever really gave him true joy in life (him never recovering from Alyssa's death is confirmed by Viserra's attempt to kinda seduce him). With one parent dead, the other one partially or fully absent from their children's life, I can see why both Viserys and Daemon turned out as manchildren, and I can also see how Daemon is more heavily affected by this, as he was 2 years old when his mother died, so much so that u could say he has some ADHD. True, FnB never elaborates on what kind of a father Daemon was, but we have no real reason to assume he was a bad one. After all, his legacy was memorable to his children so much so that it was passed on, until Daemon Blackfyre. I hope the show will show us how Viserys and Daemon feel about their childhood and parents. Such a talk should really happen once the began to reconcile (especially after he marries Rhaenyra). You can tell I want Viserys and Daemon to have good moments together. Tho not sure if we get any, if S1 really ends with Viserys' death.

The other thing I realised is how easily the showrunners could handle the age gaps: Here it is everyone important in EP1: Viserys-36. Rhaenyra-16. Alicent-19. Daemon-26-30. Laena-14-16. Laenor-16-18. That's it. Viserys was 20 years old when Rhaenyra was born (which is more than old enough), Alicent could easily be just a few years older than Rhaenyra, it doesn't destroy or hurt their chemistry, and is suitable in age to maryy widowed Viserys, while Laena is still too young for that, Laenor won't be younger than Rhaenyra (as it is in the books, but doesn't seem to be the case in the show), and Daemon isn't that much older than Laena and Rhaenyra, and thus doesn't become the creepy uncle. Now of course, Daemon and especially Viserys look a bit older than the numbers here, but it is what it is. Television always had this issue. They seem to fuck this up, altough it could really be easily handled. I won't forgive them this mistake, if they actually F this up.

Spoiler

One thing I don't like is how there will be different types of dragons. now, I don't really like Caraxes' design, but okay, sure whatever. But to have Vhagar have an issue landing without breaking her own bones seems stupid to me. Isn't dragonbone a really, really strong stuff? Yes it is.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Daeron the Daring