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[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion


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28 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I find this comment very interesting, since we’re often called “prudes” for not having a lower age of consent in the US.

It's the f-ed up nature of the beast that you can't have sex as a sixteen year old but can get married at thirteen with your parents permission.

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12 minutes ago, miyuki said:

Also very surprised but also pleased to see that people still care despite the failings of the later seasons of GoT.

Viewership actually WENT UP apparently, meaning that 10.2 people watched the premiere.

They should renew the show to Season 3 and film both 2 and 3 simultaneously.

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23 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I was surprised to see this, but it may be due to how HBO Max crashed during the premiere:

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-episode-2-ratings-viewers-1235352102/

I do wonder if HOTD has a slightly older audience than GOT did, simply because the online community feels much less robust this time.

These include streaming numbers... think it is going to go up a lot more because the binge watchers will wait for a few episodes to come out. 

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The Velaryons and Targaryens should look alike if they share a certain 'magical bloodline'.

Even more so considering they are inbred as hell. Corlys and Rhaenys/Viserys are closer cousins on the Velaryon than the Targaryen side. Although I must say that the wigs actually do wonders to imagine that they are still pretty close cousins.

Other thing:

Do you expect the whole polygamy thing come up more now that it has been introduced as a concept? The trailers very much imply that Rhaenyra and Daemon will have a Valyrian wedding ceremony, but theirs won't be a polygamous match unless they change the story dramatically.

But I've been wondering ... folks might recall that I suggested that Aegon IV could have decided to marry one or several of his mistresses in clandestine ceremonies (for instance, I think, if George wants it to be so he could easily decide to turn the mummer playing a septon at his wedding to Merry Meg into an actual septon with Viserys later merely declaring to the public that his son had a fake wedding there).

Now, Rhaenyra is another candidate where polygamy could have made sense. She was stuck in that marriage with Laenor, and if they have Harwin Strong as the father of her elder sons, then this could easily work better if they were at least married in their own mind ... if, perhaps, not in the eyes of the world since a public polygamous marriage ceremony may have been too great a scandal to bear.

They could easily enough drop this whole thing again, of course, but since they most likely won't let go of the Valyrian wedding ceremony, this seems to be something that could make sense.

It is actually a pity that George didn't fly with Rhaenyra having two husbands there. The boys would still not look Valyrian, and another polygamy thing could have still triggered the ire of the Hightowers and the Faith. Especially since Rhaenyra could have still passed them off as Laenor's son despite the fact that they looked differently.

(This actually causes a rather interesting predicament how polyandry

@The hairy bear

Reading your earlier comments I was kind of confused. They basically adapt things as they do in the book in regards to Daemon. Things are just played up a little bit. In the book, Daemon resigns from the watch and leaves court in reaction to Rhaenyra's investiture. He is not commanded to return to the Vale by the king. That only happens later after the egg thing. The show wanted it to be more dramatic, but Daemon not formally stepping down as commander of the Goldcloaks and actually taking men loyal to him with him to Dragonstone helps establish his later hold over them (it is ridiculous in the book that 20 years after Daemon last commanded the City Watch any of them remember him, care for him, and betray their king for him), and it nearly coming to blows over the egg issue is more or less fleshing out a conflict from the book.

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8 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Viewership actually WENT UP apparently, meaning that 10.2 people watched the premiere.

They should renew the show to Season 3 and film both 2 and 3 simultaneously.

That would be hugely taxing on the writers, cinematographers, actors, and the rest. We saw just how big of toll it took on the cast when they were filming the later seasons of GOT.

Like I said before, HBO Max not crashing this time probably improved the numbers a bit.

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21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Velaryons and Targaryens should look alike if they share a certain 'magical bloodline'.

I hope if George R.R. Martin ever gets around to developing each of the Targaryen dragonriding houses that they all look incredibly different and come from different parts of the Empire, united by their mastery of sorcery and only intermarrying within their own ranks.

Mind you, I find that a far more interesting and unique idea than the idea they are all Melnibone like identical racial caste.

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But I've been wondering ... folks might recall that I suggested that Aegon IV could have decided to marry one or several of his mistresses in clandestine ceremonies (for instance, I think, if George wants it to be so he could easily decide to turn the mummer playing a septon at his wedding to Merry Meg into an actual septon with Viserys later merely declaring to the public that his son had a fake wedding there).

I mean, that doesn't actually change anything due to the fact Aegon IV legitimized all of his bastards anyway except maybe making a different sort of headache for sorting out where who, what, when, and where they might line up in the order of succession.

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Now, Rhaenyra is another candidate where polygamy could have made sense. She was stuck in that marriage with Laenor, and if they have Harwin Strong as the father of her elder sons, then this could easily work better if they were at least married in their own mind ... if, perhaps, not in the eyes of the world since a public polygamous marriage ceremony may have been too great a scandal to bear.

I like that they mentioned the Targaryens practice polygamy but Fire and Blood weirdly went with the opposite of what they do in the real world where you might make an exception in society for polygamy (which is practiced fairly regularly in many parts of the world and historically) but not incest, which is considered an almost universal taboo and is enforced biologically by the Westermarck effect.

While it seems polygamy is the bigger taboo in Fire and Blood.

But perhaps not in Westeros' TV verse.

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It is actually a pity that George didn't fly with Rhaenyra having two husbands there. The boys would still not look Valyrian, and another polygamy thing could have still triggered the ire of the Hightowers and the Faith. Especially since Rhaenyra could have still passed them off as Laenor's son despite the fact that they looked differently.

Eh, Viserys declared them legitimate and legally that is the end of it. The fact the Hightowers were willing to give them Driftmark shows that the challenge of the elders' blood is a craven political maneuvering anyway.

Besides, we know that it's also very likely Aegon the Conqueror (biologically) died without issue and the Targaryen household is a continuation of Rhaenys (I).

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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Just now, C.T. Phipps said:

Mind you, I find that a far more interesting and unique idea than the idea they are all Melnibone like identical racial caste.

But the impression is that it is 'the blood of the dragon' not 'the blood of the dragons' (or 'the 'bloods' of the dragon' if there were a plural for 'blood').

The impression one has is that very few Valyrians - perhaps only one person - acquired 'the blood of the dragon' and then founded what would grow into the race of the dragonlords. This all seems to go back to one source.

And although those people ended up marrying themselves all the time they still produced cadet branches and eventually build an empire where their dragonless cousins ended up ruling Volantis and Lys and other colonies. They spread out despite the fact that they shouldn't be all that fertile.

It is not inconceivable that there were some dragonlords who didn't have the Valyrian looks - say, because a cunning and talented dragonlord bastard fathered on a slave acquired a dragon and funds and eventually founded his own dragonlord house. But that kind of thing would be the big exception from the rule.

Those people were obsessed with racial purity and primitive eugenics, and the idea that they just allowed folks who didn't look the part into their elite circles isn't very likely. Money isn't everything in the real world, either.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But the impression is that it is 'the blood of the dragon' not 'the blood of the dragons' (or 'the 'bloods' of the dragon' if there were a plural for 'blood').

The impression one has is that very few Valyrians - perhaps only one person - acquired 'the blood of the dragon' and then founded what would grow into the race of the dragonlords. This all seems to go back to one source.

And although those people ended up marrying themselves all the time they still produced cadet branches and eventually build an empire where their dragonless cousins ended up ruling Volantis and Lys and other colonies. They spread out despite the fact that they shouldn't be all that fertile.

It is not inconceivable that there were some dragonlords who didn't have the Valyrian looks - say, because a cunning and talented dragonlord bastard fathered on a slave acquired a dragon and funds and eventually founded his own dragonlord house. But that kind of thing would be the big exception from the rule.

Those people were obsessed with racial purity and primitive eugenics, and the idea that they just allowed folks who didn't look the part into their elite circles isn't very likely. Money isn't everything in the real world, either.

That's what I'm getting into actually that given the Valyrians and Targaryens are from a society that is practicing magical eugenics and know exactly how said magic works due to their blood sorcery, we don't have to stick with crude nonsense of real life genetics. I'm not saying the books don't imagine a Not-Elf racial ruling caste of magical purple eyed, albino, white-haired people like Eric (hence the Melnibone comparison) but I'm saying they could go in different directions with each of the house having their own distinctive "breeds."

Mind you, the Velaryon are Valyrian in heritage but not dragon lords. Plebeian not Patrician class that is, nevertheless, the only other Romans in town.

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29 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Besides, we know that it's also very likely Aegon the Conqueror (biologically) died without issue and the Targaryen household is a continuation of Rhaenys (I).

Um... how do we know this? Some rumours about Rhaenys being a flirt, and the fact that Aegon only had two sons despite beig a healthy guy?

Don't get me wrong, I'd kinda dig the idea that the Targaryens were not the blood of the Conqueror at all (the meltdown alone would be glorious to watch), but, at the same time, I think that would feel like an even bigger retcon.

Also, Corlys says that House Targaryen and House Velaryon are the two remaining Valyrian Houses... so I guess House Celtigar does not exist in this universe (or, if they do, they are not valyrians at all).

Edited by zajaz
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8 minutes ago, zajaz said:

Um... how do we know this? Some rumours about Rhaenys being a flirt, and the fact that Aegon only had two sons despite beig a healthy guy?

From an out of universe perspective that the clues wouldn't have been dropped if they didn't mean anything.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 The show wanted it to be more dramatic, but Daemon not formally stepping down as commander of the Goldcloaks and actually taking men loyal to him with him to Dragonstone helps establish his later hold over them (it is ridiculous in the book that 20 years after Daemon last commanded the City Watch any of them remember him, care for him, and betray their king for him), and it nearly coming to blows over the egg issue is more or less fleshing out a conflict from the book.

The first episode's confrontation at the throne room ends with Viserys telling Daemon: "You are to return to Runestone and your lady wife at once, and you are to do so without quarrel by order of your King".

The City Watch is the local police force of King's Landing. when Viserys effectively exiles Daemon from the city, he is implicitly dismissing him from his post. Even if you don't take that for granted, he still wouldn't have the authority to send members of the City Watch outside of King's Landing for six months (even less if it's for personal gain).

Those offenses would be, in my opinion, already far too big for the Crown to ignore. If I had been a script advisor I'd have suggested them to scrap all that non-sense of the gold cloaks and seizing Dragonstone. It would have been enough if the Council had received news that Daemon had just left the Vale and arrived to Dragonstone with the intention of finding a dragon egg for his unborn child. That enough (as in the books) would justify the Otto going there to intervene.

As per the justification of why so many men from the City Watch were loyal to Daemon 20 years after, I don't think it's that hard to believe. Daemon gave them better equipment, better weapons, money, pride... Why should they forget that? I'm still grateful to the guy who got me my first job more than 20 years ago, and I wasn't an uneducated beggar from Flea Bottom without any life perspective.

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2 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Those offenses would be, in my opinion, already far too big for the Crown to ignore.

I mean, they don't ignore it. Which was the goal.

Daemon wanted his brother to appear and speak with him.

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21 hours ago, teej6 said:

I am well aware the book is based on unreliable sources. I’m not saying or expecting her to be a scheming seductress but making her best friends with Rhaenyra and and a confidant and sympathetic to Rhaenyra is over kill. They can make the character nuanced without any of these additions.

Best friends turned bitter enemies makes for more compelling television. 

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2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, they don't ignore it. Which was the goal.

They do. Daemon had seized Dragonstone using men of the City Watch more than half a year ago, and according to Corlys, "without even a protest from the Crown".

It was the egg that prompted them to act, according to the show. I don't find that realistic.

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1 minute ago, The hairy bear said:

They do. Daemon had seized Dragonstone using men of the City Watch more than half a year ago, and according to Corlys, "without even a protest from the Crown".

It was the egg that prompted them to act, according to the show. I don't find that realistic.

I imagine that Otto complained repeatedly and Viserys said not to do anything.

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43 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Those offenses would be, in my opinion, already far too big for the Crown to ignore. If I had been a script advisor I'd have suggested them to scrap all that non-sense of the gold cloaks and seizing Dragonstone. It would have been enough if the Council had received news that Daemon had just left the Vale and arrived to Dragonstone with the intention of finding a dragon egg for his unborn child. That enough (as in the books) would justify the Otto going there to intervene.

Well, I'd point you to AGoT then, where another king's brother takes another king's royal fleet, crewed by men who technically are the king's men, and moves with them to the very same island to fortify it in a similar fashion, preparing for a succession war.

If Stannis can do it, so can Daemon. I admit that Stannis wasn't banished from court, but even if we assume Daemon was effectively dismissed as Lord Commander of the City Watch ... he may have failed to communicate this to his men or they may have been too loyal to Daemon, personally, to care much about this.

43 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

As per the justification of why so many men from the City Watch were loyal to Daemon 20 years after, I don't think it's that hard to believe. Daemon gave them better equipment, better weapons, money, pride... Why should they forget that? I'm still grateful to the guy who got me my first job more than 20 years ago, and I wasn't an uneducated beggar from Flea Bottom without any life perspective.

Daemon only served for a very short time in the books, and many men who joined the City Watch 20 or 30 years ago should no longer be on active duty. The vow sworn to Rhaenyra is weakened by old men dying and new men taking over for their fathers. There this is relevant, but not with the City Watch? This doesn't go very well together.

Even more so since Otto returned as Hand in 120 AC. Are we to believe he didn't bring in his own men in the years of Viserys' decline? Mace Tyrell is Hand for just a fortnight or so and he has already added hundreds men of his household guard to the City Watch.

I hope the show has Daemon's men accompany him to the Stepstone, to fight and bleed there with him, and then to return to KL with him when he comes back to offer up his crown. George should have gone with Daemon settling many of the veterans from his war in KL and the Crownlands, so that there is a contingent of men there he can count upon.

The idea that the City Watch is still loyal to a guy who served only two years as their Lord Commander is pretty much ludicrous. They would have had several commanders in-between, many of which would have served much longer and thus had a greater personal impact on the men. Not to mention that the Greens then even purge the City Watch of suspected Blacks.

Somebody like Luthor Largent would make great sense as a guy who went to the Stepstones as a squire, developing a close bond with Daemon ... and who was later able to keep that fact from the Greens.

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