Fixing the noble ranks of Westeros.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

The noble ranks of Westeros dont make sense, you are either the King, a lord or a knigth. G.R.R Martin as already gone on record saying that it is one of is biggest regrets and he would change it if he could go back in time but it is now too late.

So I was curious on how you would change it, what titles and rank would you have and also wich family would you give what rank ?

Firstly for ranks I would propose:

-King, that would not change the king would stay the king for me.

-Prince, Lord Paramount is the closest we get to a variation of title but I think it is too close to lord, and more often then not the more important landed noble of the middle ages were called prince so to me it would make since for the lord paramount to be prince's.

-Duke, for the more important lords of each region, it could also reflect that some of those houses were at some point and time a royal house, even if it was in the age of heros.

-Marquess, as a intermediary between the old and more important houses of each region and perhaps newer but still important houses

-Count, for most of the second tier lords who still seem to have a certain level of power, you could also add a variation like count in the north being earls and in the iron islands jarls.

-Lord, for most of the landed nobility that still has some amout of rigth but that are clearly lesser powers

-Knigth of, for the lowest of nobles but still landowners, you could also have some of them being very powerfull but lacking a "true" title.

What would you gals and guys think ?

As for what house would go were my non exhaustive list would be:

Kings: Targaryen and Baratheon of Kingslanding

Prince: Targaryen of Dragonstone, Baratheon of Dragonstone, Baratheon of Storm's End, Tully, Stark, Martell, Tyrell, Greyjoy, Arryn, Lannister

Dukes: Umbers, Bolton, Dustin, Manderly, Royce, Hunter, Belmore, Corbray, Mallister, Blackwood, Bracken, Vance of Wayfarer's Rest, Harrenhal, Reynes, Crakehall, Lydden, Serrets, Lefford, Farman, Darklyn, Hightower, Redwyne, Oakheart, Florent, Tarly, Rowan, Merryweather (pre-rebellion), Peake (pre-blackfyre), Tarth, Estremont, Connington (pre-rebellion), Velaryon, Massey, Yronwood, Dayne, Fowler, Blackmont, Harlaw, Goodbrother, Blactyde, Orkmont, Drumm, Saltcliff.

Marquess: Karstark, Ryswell, Reed, Glover, Frey, Piper, Darry (pre-rebellion), Butterwell (pre-blackfyre), Waynwood, Grafton, Sunderland, Westerling, Brax, Rosby, Bar Emmon, Swann, Dondarrion, Caron, Footly, Caswell, Crane, Osgrey (before they lost all they're lands), Uller's, Allyrion.

Count: Cerwyn, Tallhart, Flint's, Lockes, Mormont, Borell, Coldwater, Redfort, Vance of Atranta, Mooton, Ryger, Lychester, Goodbrook, Botley, Pebbleton, Wynch, Farwynd, Volmark, Kenning, Sunderly, Stonetree, Kenning of Kayce, Prester, Marbrand, Plumm, Swift, Tarbecks, Jast, Hayford, Stokeworth, Farring, Celtigar, Penrose, Buckler, Grandison, Cafferen, Wylde, Beesbury, Mullendore, Ashford, Costayne, red apple Fossoway's, Ambrose, the Shield lords, Santagar, Jordayne, Wyl, Manwoody, Gargalen, Toland.

I will stop there but interested in what you think, also just to be clear the title would not be a representation of the power of the house but of its status, so the Frey could still be the most powerfull lord of the Riverlands but its title would not reflect that, same with the Velaryon, they could still be Dukes but would not be alot more powerfull then many count by the reign of Robert.

[Craving Peaches]

Personally if I were Aegon the Conqueror I would have crowned myself Emperor of Westeros, King of the Seven Kingdoms sounds a bit odd/clunky to me. I mean it's an entire continent so I think Emperor is a better title.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Personally if I were Aegon the Conqueror I would have crowned myself Emperor of Westeros, King of the Seven Kingdoms sounds a bit odd/clunky to me. I mean it's an entire continent so I think Emperor is a better title.

I agree but the line about it only having on king is Westeros is really good so I decide that the title should be kept.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Vaegon the dragonless said:

I agree but the line about it only having on king is Westeros is really good so I decide that the title should be kept.

It is quite a cool line. Aegon had the choice between demoting all the kings so he was the only one and keeping them all and elevating himself above them. There are arguments for both, I just think 'Emperor of Westeros' sounds way cooler and more elegant, refined etc.

[Daeron the Daring]

The King of Westeros is de facto an emperor, the Lords Paramount are basically de facto kings. Then a Lord Paramount has lords as its vassals, who can have other lords as his vassals, and so on. I guess only landed knights can't have lords as their vassals. The title lord is mostly anything between a duke and a baron: You could also make a rank such as archduke or something in between king and duke, but that's not the important part. The realm of a Lord Paramount is very much comparable in size to a large kingdom, so the King of the Seven Kingdoms is a sort of King of Kings, with a realm the size of a large empire, etc. Anyway, this never really bothered me, as the books aren't an overhaul of any IRL history, but a medieval fantasy franchise standing on their own feet.

[LindsayLohan]

I honestly don’t wish for more titles. King, lord paramount, lord, landed knight. There are also a couple of masterly houses. There’s no need to make this more complicated than it has to be, just to play ancient Europe.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The King of Westeros is de facto an emperor, the Lords Paramount are basically de facto kings. Then a Lord Paramount has lords as its vassals, who can have other lords as his vassals, and so on. I guess only landed knights can't have lords as their vassals. The title lord is mostly anything between a duke and a baron: You could also make a rank such as archduke or something in between king and duke, but that's not the important part. The realm of a Lord Paramount is very much comparable in size to a large kingdom, so the King of the Seven Kingdoms is a sort of King of Kings, with a realm the size of a large empire, etc. Anyway, this never really bothered me, as the books aren't an overhaul of any IRL history, but a medieval fantasy franchise standing on their own feet.

I can see your point, but I just find it weird that sombody like Littlefinger is virtually the same rank has Leyton Hightower, it is not immersion breaking or anything but I think that having a bit more depth in the noble hierachy could help. It could also explain why some family resent other's, or show the fall from grace and reduction of power of some family's, for example why the Frey feel inferior to the other house's in the Riverlands if they were the most powerful vassal but with a less prestigious title.

11 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

I honestly don’t wish for more titles. King, lord paramount, lord, landed knight. There are also a couple of masterly houses. There’s no need to make this more complicated than it has to be, just to play ancient Europe.

Oh sure I migth have gone a bit over board and what I submitted could be a bit too confusing but I still thing adding at least a rank would help, like for example making great lords a actual thing and not just a very vague and unoficial denomination. And I explained above why I think the story would benefit from a bit more depth to the noble hierachy.

[Kinola]

Princes should only be limited to the sons of Kings. The Lord Paramounts should be the Dukes, but what about Earls and Barons and Viscounts? Why are they being left out? 

The Iron Islands should have clans only, in my honest opinion (Clan Greyjoy, Clan Harlaw, etc.). Same should apply to the Sistermen and the Skagosi.

[TheLastWolf]

Bring in Communism so everyone is 'Komrad'!

[Loose Bolt]

7 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Bring in Communism so everyone is 'Komrad'!

Actually Communist countries are not really paradises and usually those are ruled by very small elite and most people has very few actual rights. Or they some way are similar than Westeros. For instance in China or North Korea average dude has as many political rights than any peasant living lands ruled by House Bolton.

[TheLastWolf]

17 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Actually Communist countries are not really paradises and usually those are ruled by very small elite and most people has very few actual rights. Or they some way are similar than Westeros. For instance in China or North Korea average dude has as many political rights than any peasant living lands ruled by House Bolton.

sarcasm lol

[Aldarion]

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Bring in Communism so everyone is 'Komrad'!

So... Komrade Emperator?

[TheLastWolf]

5 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

So... Komrade Emperator?

 

Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant

 

[Daeron the Daring]

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Bring in Communism so everyone is 'Komrad'!

Actually, comrade refers to a friend, a colleague, a based member/worker of the socialist system. The wealthy were the kulaks, they were sent to kulak camps and stuff. Westerosi lords are kulaks, what I mean.

[TheLastWolf]

3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The wealth were the kulaks

Killed in the millions, basically landlords

5 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

they were sent to kulak camps and stuff. 

Gulag, FTFY

There's a difference

 

Even Stalin and Lenin were referred to as Komrads only

[Daeron the Daring]

11 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Even Stalin and Lenin were referred to as Komrads only

They were the most comrades of them all, but I suppose the word may had been degrading in their case. The kulaks were the criminalized wealthy people who were stripped of their belongings, most of the time everything, including their life.

Funny story, my BF's living grandfather (88) is a big communist (one of the few who actually believed and believes in it), to this day couldn't understand how could capitalism work. Meanwhile the same guy's other grandfather, passed a long ago, used to own huge a barrel factory, and was the archenemy of communism while alive.

[TheLastWolf]

2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

They were the most comrades of them all, but I suppose the word may had been degrading in their case. The kulaks were the criminalized wealthy people who were stripped of their belongings, most of the time everything, including their life.

They resisted Stalin's collectivization

4 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Funny story, my BF's living grandfather (88) is a big communist (one of the few who actually believed and believes in it), to this day couldn't understand how could capitalism work. Meanwhile the same guy's other grandfather, passed a long ago, used to own huge a barrel factory, and was the archenemy of communism while alive.

Irony is everywhere

[Denam_Pavel]

16 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

I can see your point, but I just find it weird that sombody like Littlefinger is virtually the same rank has Leyton Hightower, it is not immersion breaking or anything but I think that having a bit more depth in the noble hierachy could help. It could also explain why some family resent other's, or show the fall from grace and reduction of power of some family's, for example why the Frey feel inferior to the other house's in the Riverlands if they were the most powerful vassal but with a less prestigious title.

Oh sure I migth have gone a bit over board and what I submitted could be a bit too confusing but I still thing adding at least a rank would help, like for example making great lords a actual thing and not just a very vague and unoficial denomination. And I explained above why I think the story would benefit from a bit more depth to the noble hierachy.

Agreed, it's even weirded that every noble woman is lady but as a man you do not have a title until the head of house dies or you are knighted. Like Arya is a Lady from birth but Edmure is just Edmure until Hoster dies. Lord should be as freely used as Lady.

[Daeron the Daring]

9 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Agreed, it's even weirded that every noble woman is lady but as a man you do not have a title until the head of house dies or you are knighted. Like Arya is a Lady from birth but Edmure is just Edmure until Hoster dies. Lord should be as freely used as Lady.

Not necesarilly a good idea. I think the practical element of this is to show if the given person is knighted or not. Ser Edmure Tully and Edmure Tully give different vibes. 

This is easily seen in the case of Laenor Velaryon, who was knighted before his wedding. It was important enough to do it despite him not actually doing anything to deserve the knighthood.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

8 hours ago, Kinola said:

Princes should only be limited to the sons of Kings. The Lord Paramounts should be the Dukes, but what about Earls and Barons and Viscounts? Why are they being left out? 

The Iron Islands should have clans only, in my honest opinion (Clan Greyjoy, Clan Harlaw, etc.). Same should apply to the Sistermen and the Skagosi.

I hesitated with calling the lords paramount Princes, the fact that Dorne was and is still a principality made me hesitate but thinking back I think Archduke or Grand-Duke migth be better for lords paramounts.

For Earls I said originaly that it could be used to mark regionnal differences, like the North not having any counts but earls in there place.

I left out Viscount and Barons because I still agree that it should not be too complicated, so I thougth having 5 "tiers" would be enougth to get a good amount of depth will not going to much over-board and making it too complicated.

I think that the clans are a bit too much associated with the first men to be applied to the Ironborn but I did propose Jarl for them wich could be a unique title for them. But I agree for Skagos, the Sisters ro me sound that they would still apply the titles of the more southern kingdoms all while being they're seperate thing.