The age changes among characters

[C.T. Phipps]

Basically, a thread to talk about how the aging up and de-aging of characters has impacted relationships for good and bad.

As well as your opinions on them.

Share and share a like.

[C.T. Phipps]

My opinion is the age changes are a very good idea for handling a lot of the issues in the story's transition from book to screen:

1. It's a good idea to age down Laenor to not be born by the Great Council: Making it so Laenor hasn't presumably been born yet by the time of the Great Council means that the candidacy of Rhaenys vs. Viserys is being considered versus Viserys vs. Laenor is very good for the story they want to tell. Laenor vs. Viserys isn't obviously a sexism issue (though that's there to an extent) but more an age issue where Viserys is an adult man while Laenor was a child.

It's a lot more clear cut to say, "A woman will never sit the Iron Throne" vs. "Matrilineal inheritance to a male heir is unacceptable to the Lords of Westeros vs. a direct male heir."

2. It's a good idea to age down Laena to be an unnacceptable bride for Viserys: It's not remotely something that was an issue in the books but using it as an opportunity to take a shot at child brides and child marriage as a fucked up element of feudalism (and, sadly, some part of the US) is a great idea. It provides a very clear and obvious reason to reject the strategically intelligent match to do the stupid thing and marry your Hand's (a second son) daughter. It's not even THAT big of an improvement because she's still a teenager--just played by a 18-20 year old actress.

3. It's a good idea to age Viserys up: I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but I feel like the show is doing a lot to make it clear these marriages are forced on by their parents scheming and, in no way, voluntary. Viserys as a 28 year old man and Alicent Hightower as a 20 year old woman is not something that is abnormal in my time while making her a teenage girl and Viserys as a middle-aged man who looks old for his age makes it much more clear this is not something she's interested in on her own accord. Making her a "scheming seductress" out to seduce the queen feels misogynist when she is more likely to be just obeying her father.
 
4. Rhaenyra's age up is also a good idea: I feel like my reaons for this can be summarized in one simple name: Criston Cole. Basically, the "romance' between these two is such an integral part of Sir Criston's betrayal and the later strife during her marriage. It's, however, incredibly creepy if you don't do the age up and still kind of creepy as is. However, it's at least UNDERSTANDABLE why he might recrprocate now with the time skip and she's a woman of 18 or so.

[The Knight of Flours]

I'm wondering how this will affect viewer reaction to the show.

They will have just got used to matching a character's face to a name and then they will change faces.

A series like 'The Crown' can get away with it due to it being a much smaller (and more familiar) cast of characters, but I do wonder about it for House of the Dragon.

[Mithras]

It will be a mess.

[Lin Meili]

I actually didn't remember the character's ages until people started posting about it. I'm fine with the current ages. The more important thing is that they are able to hire good actors who won't start looking too old after a season or two.

[Lord of Oldstones]

This age change only makes too many child brides in Alicent & Laena while they was only Helaena marring couple years senior brother in the original timeline.

Viserys-Alicent match isnt Lysa-Jon Arryn type mis-match but made such here. That Valyrian hair doesnt help making him look like a grandfather.

If they wished friendship so much could certainly make Alicent handmaiden or elder sister figure. Its not like friendly scene lasted more than 2 min tv time.

[BlackLightning]

Aging Rhaenyra up is not the problem.

Aging down Laena and Laenor is silly if you ask me. They could/should be the same age as Rhaenyra and Viserys could still be repulsed by it.

Aging up Viserys is annoying yet harmless.

 

The problem I have is the aging down of Alicent. Not only does it whitewash her but it makes Viserys look like a limp-wristed hypocrite....which may be the point. But aging her down definitely whitewashes. There's no reason for her to be so young. She can still be pressured by her father into wrapping the king around her finger at the ages of 20-25.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

Aging down Laena and Laenor is silly if you ask me. They could/should be the same age as Rhaenyra and Viserys could still be repulsed by it.

Rhaenyra is older than in the show, but Laena is as old as she was in the books when her marriage to Viserys comes up.

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

The problem I have is the aging down of Alicent. Not only does it whitewash her but it makes Viserys look like a limp-wristed hypocrite....which may be the point. But aging her down definitely whitewashes. There's no reason for her to be so young. She can still be pressured by her father into wrapping the king around her finger at the ages of 20-25.

Really don't see this. I mean, in most countries you don't have rigid (and silly) issue with young people having sex or marry older people. It is perfectly fine for Viserys to be weirded out by the idea to marry a girl who cannot even have children yet while having no issue marrying a young woman.

And they don't even say that he is going to marry her right away but before spring's end - which, in Westeros, could easily mean next year or so, making her older still.

[Colonel Green]

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

She can still be pressured by her father into wrapping the king around her finger at the ages of 20-25.

Alicent was 18 when she married Viserys in the book. If she's been aged down, it's only by a couple of years.

[Winterfell is Burning]

2 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Alicent was 18 when she married Viserys in the book. If she's been aged down, it's only by a couple of years.

Yes. The problem is they've aged Viserys too much.

[C.T. Phipps]

51 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yes. The problem is they've aged Viserys too much.

I feel that's to underscore that he's deluding himself that Alicent would ever want to marry him of her own will.

An 18 year old versus a 28 year old isn't that abnormal to audiences.

Not so much an 18 year old and 38 year old.

[BlackLightning]

16 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Alicent was 18 when she married Viserys in the book. If she's been aged down, it's only by a couple of years.

Ooooh

Good point.

So the problem here really is aging up Rhaenyra 7 years and aging up Viserys 10 years.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, in most countries you don't have rigid (and silly) issue with young people having sex or marry older people.

I agree.

Us Americans are really hypocritical and confused when it comes to matters of sex and marriage.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra is older than in the show, but Laena is as old as she was in the books when her marriage to Viserys comes up.

Why do you think they went with the decision to make Rhaenyra so much older?

Are we sure that Laena is 12 years old? Because she doesn't look 12 to me. Or have I gotten that old... :O

[Colonel Green]

16 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I feel that's to underscore that he's deluding himself that Alicent would ever want to marry him of her own will.

An 18 year old versus a 28 year old isn't that abnormal to audiences.

Not so much an 18 year old and 38 year old.

I don’t think there’s any rationale behind Viserys’ aging beyond that, much like the original show, they’ve cast the parents to look more like what we’d expect the parents of teenagers to look like. Same reason why Ned, who was in his mid-30s in AGOT, was played by 50ish Sean Bean.

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Why do you think they went with the decision to make Rhaenyra so much older?

They aged Rhaenyra because they wanted to make her and Alicent peers, and in turn, friends, because that’s a good dramatic angle. It also allows the central character to be active in the story much earlier.

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Are we sure that Laena is 12 years old? Because she doesn't look 12 to me. Or have I gotten that old... :O

She’s expressly referred to as being twelve.

I would agree that that child actress did not look 12 to me.

[Winterfell is Burning]

49 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

I don’t think there’s any rationale behind Viserys’ aging beyond that, much like the original show, they’ve cast the parents to look more like what we’d expect the parents of teenagers to look like. Same reason why Ned, who was in his mid-30s in AGOT, was played by 50ish Sean Bean.

 

But the thing is that if you make them look so much older, then you have this teenagers having to get married and have kids, and having to get married to people the age of their parents to boot, then you're making the parents look perverse for making their kids being subjected to this when they themselves got married and had children at much older ages.

If Viserys gets married at 14 and later married 18 year old Alicent when he's 10 years older, he's just doing what it's normal in this world. If Viserys gets married in his 20's or 30's, and later at 40 something marries 16 year old Alicent, he's a pervert, or at least looks like one

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

They aged Rhaenyra because they wanted to make her and Alicent peers, and in turn, friends, because that’s a good dramatic angle. It also allows the central character to be active in the story much earlier.

Don't think the friendship angle was the crucial thing there, more the fact that they wanted Rhaenyra in a more active role from the start, with the ability to reflect on her role in life. A 14-15 year-old finally being named Heir Apparent is a much different thing than a girl of seven receiving the same honor. The latter would never have the feeling to not be enough for her father, would never feel a desire to prove herself to be as good as a man.

And she would also be completely out of the active political game until she turned 14, 15 or thereabouts - which in the book is when Daemon returns from the Stepstones and her marriage to Laenor is arranged. A great scene like her flight to Dragonstone would have been impossible if she was barely eight at that point.

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Us Americans are really hypocritical and confused when it comes to matters of sex and marriage.

We in Germany have a more gradual rule here. Something like the rules many US states seem to have, that you basically can no longer have sex with your boyfriend when you are 18 and he still 17 we had until the 1990s in relation to gay sex among men. There underage folks could more or less do what they want, but when one party got 18 or 21 things got weird.

That was often abused by anti-gay folks who accused the boyfriend of their son of child abuse, etc. on the bases of that law.

I recall when watching Dawson's Creek that the scandal of the affair between Pacey and his teacher was less of an issue over here, since the woman would, of course, face disciplinatory measures and possibly even criminal charges for having an affair with one of her students ... the very fact that she was an older woman wouldn't be an issue here if the student is 16 or older. Even if she was a teacher at his school - the important point would be whether she was his teacher or not.

[C.T. Phipps]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Are we sure that Laena is 12 years old? Because she doesn't look 12 to me. Or have I gotten that old... :O

Her actress is thirteen in RL, not Hollywood thriteen.

So "sixteen year old" Rhaenyra and Alicent look 20, because they are.

While she looks like an actual thirteen year old.

[Bungholes First]

On 9/2/2022 at 12:59 PM, C.T. Phipps said:

Her actress is thirteen in RL, not Hollywood thriteen.

So "sixteen year old" Rhaenyra and Alicent look 20, because they are.

While she looks like an actual thirteen year old.

On the official HotD podcast, Emily Carey who plays teenage Alicent was interviewed and said she was 17 when she filmed her scenes.

[Theda Baratheon]

I have no issues with any of the age changes and very much agree with the below.

On 8/30/2022 at 11:11 PM, C.T. Phipps said:

My opinion is the age changes are a very good idea for handling a lot of the issues in the story's transition from book to screen:

1. It's a good idea to age down Laenor to not be born by the Great Council: Making it so Laenor hasn't presumably been born yet by the time of the Great Council means that the candidacy of Rhaenys vs. Viserys is being considered versus Viserys vs. Laenor is very good for the story they want to tell. Laenor vs. Viserys isn't obviously a sexism issue (though that's there to an extent) but more an age issue where Viserys is an adult man while Laenor was a child.

It's a lot more clear cut to say, "A woman will never sit the Iron Throne" vs. "Matrilineal inheritance to a male heir is unacceptable to the Lords of Westeros vs. a direct male heir."

2. It's a good idea to age down Laena to be an unnacceptable bride for Viserys: It's not remotely something that was an issue in the books but using it as an opportunity to take a shot at child brides and child marriage as a fucked up element of feudalism (and, sadly, some part of the US) is a great idea. It provides a very clear and obvious reason to reject the strategically intelligent match to do the stupid thing and marry your Hand's (a second son) daughter. It's not even THAT big of an improvement because she's still a teenager--just played by a 18-20 year old actress.

3. It's a good idea to age Viserys up: I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but I feel like the show is doing a lot to make it clear these marriages are forced on by their parents scheming and, in no way, voluntary. Viserys as a 28 year old man and Alicent Hightower as a 20 year old woman is not something that is abnormal in my time while making her a teenage girl and Viserys as a middle-aged man who looks old for his age makes it much more clear this is not something she's interested in on her own accord. Making her a "scheming seductress" out to seduce the queen feels misogynist when she is more likely to be just obeying her father.
 
4. Rhaenyra's age up is also a good idea: I feel like my reaons for this can be summarized in one simple name: Criston Cole. Basically, the "romance' between these two is such an integral part of Sir Criston's betrayal and the later strife during her marriage. It's, however, incredibly creepy if you don't do the age up and still kind of creepy as is. However, it's at least UNDERSTANDABLE why he might recrprocate now with the time skip and she's a woman of 18 or so.

As a visual storytelling medium, you almost need to rely on visual stereotypes and things that will tell a story quicker than reading it in detail. These ages hit different story points and bring out different emotions from us and for me they really work for this story. It makes the characters actions all very believable. 

[Denam_Pavel]

On 9/2/2022 at 7:43 PM, Winterfell is Burning said:

But the thing is that if you make them look so much older, then you have this teenagers having to get married and have kids, and having to get married to people the age of their parents to boot, then you're making the parents look perverse for making their kids being subjected to this when they themselves got married and had children at much older ages.

If Viserys gets married at 14 and later married 18 year old Alicent when he's 10 years older, he's just doing what it's normal in this world. If Viserys gets married in his 20's or 30's, and later at 40 something marries 16 year old Alicent, he's a pervert, or at least looks like one

Ned had two pretty much adult looking sons, Viserys and Aemma had several unsuccessful pregnancies, any number of which could have been in the years before Rhaenyra.