The Resurrection and Tragedy of Jon Snow

[TheLastWolf]

12 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I should burn the body to keep the White Walkers from bringing him back. 

Why don't you go ahead and scatter the ashes in the Ganges Rhoyne?

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I should burn the body to keep the White Walkers from bringing him back.

Since when could the White Walkers raise people south of the wall?

[Reekazoid]

4 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I should burn the body to keep the White Walkers from bringing him back. 

Better get there before Melisandre! 

[Moiraine Sedai]

5 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I should burn the body to keep the White Walkers from bringing him back. 

Burn. Bury very deep. Do what the Freys did to Robb. Either way will keep him from coming back. That warg is too dangerous to have around. 

[TheLastWolf]

[Jaenara Belarys]

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

No proof as usual I see.

What did you expect? 

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

What did you expect? 

I don't know to be honest. Even asking is an exercise in futility.

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know to be honest. Even asking is an exercise in futility.

We're getting a bit philosophical here. 

Something can't be proven until its written/published. Thus far GRRM hasn't told us what comes next. People quite naturally speculate and offer theories - I earlier outlined why I think Jon is likely to become a White Walker/Nazgul - but I can't prove it thus for because GRRM hasn't told us one way or the other, so complaining that asking for proof is an exercise in futility is dangerously like a tantrum  

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

We're getting a bit philosophical here. 

Something can't be proven until its written/published. Thus far GRRM hasn't told us what comes next. People quite naturally speculate and offer theories - I earlier outlined why I think Jon is likely to become a White Walker/Nazgul - but I can't prove it thus for because GRRM hasn't told us one way or the other, so complaining that asking for proof is an exercise in futility is dangerously like a tantrum  

I understand that nothing will be proven until we get the next book, but I still don't think that means people can state things like they are facts, with no evidence presented, and not expect to have them challenged. When you outlined your reasoning you used textual evidence to back up your speculation, which those I ask for evidence/proof do not. This is my issue. The same 'Jon is evil' claims are repeated over and over again with nothing to back them up. Given that it is a quite a change of direction in Jon's character so far to have him join the Others and attack Westeros, after all he has done to fight against them and defend the realms of men, I think I am allowed to ask for evidence to back these claims up. Obviously they don't have to give me any, but just stating the same scenario over and over again, never presenting any evidence from the text unlike yourself, is beginning to irk me and I have become quite irate and jaded with the situation.

[Black Crow]

On 9/5/2022 at 12:20 PM, Craving Peaches said:

So you think R'hlorr is the true evil/villain/danger to humanity in the story?

Could be, here's what Mel's boss, Master Benero has to say about Danaerys...

Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

Summer never ending sounds good [until you think of drought etc.] but then death bending the knee and "all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…" sounds a bit like wights

[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Could be, here's what Mel's boss, Master Benero has to say about Danaerys...

Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

Summer never ending sounds good [until you think of drought etc.] but then death bending the knee and "all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…" sounds a bit like wights

I also don't really buy what Melisandre has to say on her shadow conjurations. I just don't see how they can really be servants of the light, as she puts it. The long night is the entire place covered by shadow, but if the shadows are R'hlorr's domain then...?

The Others are also described as cold shadows. And Victim No.1 of the shadow attack feels cold right before he dies.

There is nothing definite, I just feel like either Melisandre is not drawing upon R'hlorr when she produces the shadows, or R'hlorr is connected to the Others in some way.

[Reekazoid]

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I also don't really buy what Melisandre has to say on her shadow conjurations. I just don't see how they can really be servants of the light, as she puts it. The long night is the entire place covered by shadow, but if the shadows are R'hlorr's domain then...?

The Others are also described as cold shadows. And Victim No.1 of the shadow attack feels cold right before he dies.

There is nothing definite, I just feel like either Melisandre is not drawing upon R'hlorr when she produces the shadows, or R'hlorr is connected to the Others in some way.

She just means that without light a shadow can’t exist.
 

A lot of poetic prose uses “shadow” as an synonym for “evil” or “darkness”.  But Mel is speaking empirically (for once) and just means that without a bright light a shadow literally can’t exist. Not even a supernatural Shadow, but like, a shadow shadow. An umbra. 
 

She says the shadows are servants of the light.  Think about how you can make a shadow change shape and size by moving a light source around an object.  The objects in turn can be arranged creatively to make their shadows do all kinds of tricks. 
 

In  this case the “objects” casting the shadows are Mel and Stannis, the “(pro?)creative arrangement” is the… somatic component of the ritual.  And the  Lord of Light provides, well, the “light source”.  
 

The resulting shadow then goes off and does all sorts of tricks. 

Without a sun, or heart of summer or whatever, in total or near-total darkness , you don’t get discrete shadows. They can’t exist   

That help?

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

She just means that without light a shadow can’t exist. Like a lot of poetic prose uses “shadow” as an synonym for “evil” or “darkness”.  But Mel is speaking empirically (for once) and just means that without a bright light a shadow literally can’t exist. Not a supernatural Shadow, but like, a shadow shadow. An umbra. 
 

She says the shadows are servants of the light.  Think about how you can make a shadow change shape and size by moving a light source around an object.  The objects turn can be arranged creatively to make shadows do all kinds of tricks. 
 

In  this case the “objects” casting shadow are Mel and Stannis, the “(pro?)creative arrangement” is the… somatic component of the ritual.  The Lord of Light provides, well, the “light source”.  
 

The resulting shadow then goes and does all sorts of tricks. 

Without a sun or heart of summer or whatever, in total or near total darkness , you don’t get discrete shadows. They can’t exist   

That help?

Thank you for the explanation, I did understand that you can't have shadow without light and all it's just she refers specifically to her shadow demons as being servants of the good and true lord of light or something and I'm sceptical whether they are really good aligned.

[Reekazoid]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Thank you for the explanation, I did understand that you can't have shadow without light and all it's just she refers specifically to her shadow demons as being servants of the good and true lord of light or something and I'm sceptical whether they are really good aligned.

I highly doubt that Rh’lore is wholly good, or even mostly good tbh. Red is the new gray. 
 

Meanwhile the Others are (imho) neither wholly evil not particularly good. I mean they are the Other and by definition not “us”.   They become evil to “us” when they kill us, push us out of our homes, make us freeze to death, hunt us through the woods, etc.  

But I doubt they sit around afterwards toasting to Evil and laughing like villains.    
 

I mean for all we know something humans do as a matter of daily life hurts the Others in some way. Or maybe they reproduce by taking humans and doing Othery stuff to them. The periodic invasions and long nights might be essential to their survival. 
 

Not that it matters really. If it’s “us” or the Others, most people will choose “us”because fuck those Other guys.  Sorry if this is your lifecycle or whatever but I’d  rather you didn’t blanket my lands in ice and darkness and use my  frozen corpse to lay your eggs in and such. 
 

So yeah, in summary, Red Ralloo definitely isn’t a “good guy” but he seems to be opposed to the Others so he is relatively less bad. 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

So yeah, in summary, Red Ralloo definitely isn’t a “good guy” but he seems to be opposed to the Others so he is relatively less bad. 

But is he?

Up north, beyond the Wall there is something cold and nasty which raises the dead. Way down south there's hot and nasty which raises the dead. Humans are in the middle except [when they join with one or the other, eg: Craster and Melisandre] but so far we haven't actually seen the two directly opposed. 

Arguably the Others might be opposed to the Red lot and so "relatively less bad"

[Reekazoid]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But is he?

Up north, beyond the Wall there is something cold and nasty which raises the dead. Way down south there's hot and nasty which raises the dead. Humans are in the middle except [when they join with one or the other, eg: Craster and Melisandre] but so far we haven't actually seen the two directly opposed. 

Arguably the Others might be opposed to the Red lot and so "relatively less bad"

Right?   So the relative badness may end up as nothing more than a function of how close you live to either one of the "hearts".

[Mr_E_Knight]

On 8/30/2022 at 2:59 PM, Craving Peaches said:

It would be good if there was any evidence to actually back this up. But there never is.

There are some indications that those who swear the Night's Watch oath by a Weirwood Tree may retain their humanity upon becoming a wight.  Coldhands. 

[Reekazoid]

1 hour ago, Mr_E_Knight said:

There are some indications that those who swear the Night's Watch oath by a Weirwood Tree may retain their humanity upon becoming a wight.  Coldhands. 

This is interesting. Tell me more. 

[Craving Peaches]

16 hours ago, Mr_E_Knight said:

There are some indications that those who swear the Night's Watch oath by a Weirwood Tree may retain their humanity upon becoming a wight.  Coldhands.

I read your post on it and it sounds good, it wasn't the idea that Jon could become a Wight that I thought had no proof, but the idea that Jon will suddenly come back as an evil wight and attack people (other than his enemies). If he becomes like Coldhands, would there be any restrictions on his movement? Coldhands couldn't pass through the gate.

[BalerionTheCat]

17 hours ago, Mr_E_Knight said:

There are some indications that those who swear the Night's Watch oath by a Weirwood Tree may retain their humanity upon becoming a wight.  Coldhands. 

Nice idea. But if we only have Coldhands, it's pretty slim. We don't even know if he swore to the Old Gods. I would guess he came with BR from the South. Anyway, he died long before the return of the Others. So his revival was necessarily different from the recent wights.

But Jon is the PTWP. Someway I don't think he will be this mindless zombie. He will have a death list. Surely with Ramsay and Bowen in good position. But I hope, with him, we will see the Others' focus going south, where they're somewhat needed. Where many need to pay for their actions.