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MCU: The Wong Dynasty


SpaceChampion

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9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I really enjoyed Hawkeye.

I think it was fine and mostly fun.  Don’t know that I’d rewatch it.

Honestly, other than What If and WandaVision and I guess maybe now She Hulk; I really think all of these would have been better off as two hour movies instead of 6-8 hour shows.

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Just now, Corvinus85 said:

I think in the writers room it looked better. Maybe it was just the lighting.

I was going to say I thought her CGI was the worst it had ever been in this episode, some of the facial movement was so clunky it was depressing. However none of that was as awful as whatever they did to Abominations face. What was up with that!

btw, I think her weird walk is because they film her on that big mechanical rig, with metal stilts, I seem to recall her doing that. That would explain why she walks like a constipated dinosaur.

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1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I really enjoyed Hawkeye.


I think the writing in it was just a lot better than this. Like there was nothing in She-Hulk anywhere close to the scene between Kate and Yelena at her apartment, but even aside from that, across the show it was just... better.

 

 

I think the problems with this show for me can be summed up by the fact that I skipped two episodes entirely and was not in any way lost when I came back in last week, I didn't feel I'd missed anything. And in the end I feel like the entire point of the show was the Kevin scene, and everything else was just trying to figure out how to get her there.

And even that was a rather pale imitation of something Grant Morrison would have done.

It's definitely the worst of the MCU shows for me, even though I haven't watched past I think the second episode of Ms Marvel, because that was because one specific character was annoying me but at least it had an identity. This really didn't tbh. It had some funny moments, it wasn't like I had no fun, but it was almost just a collection of lines.

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I liked Hawkeye too. It wasn’t trying to do anything too ambitious but I thought it was decent enough within it’s limitations. Plus Florence Pugh as Yelena is fun. 

Loki was good.

Other than that the MCU tv shows haven’t really worked for me. I didn’t bother after the first episode of She Hulk. Ms Marvel wasn’t bad but not really my thing. Moonknight and Falcon and the Winter Soldier were a bit more ambitious than Hawkeye but didn’t manage to pull it off.

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I'm not sure why you'd think that men were the villain when it was clearly just misogynistic trolls - and regardless of what you think of any RL discourse, in the show they are explicitly that - and Jen was surrounded by a bunch of men that aren't villains. Pug, Emil, Bruce, Matt, her Dad... None of them were in that villain bucket. It was really just Todd, Josh and the guy that works at the DA that I think you could call actual characters that were villains here which are in that misogynistic trolls group.

I think it finished at about the same level as most of the season was for me - reasonably entertaining, I enjoyed having it on and will watch a second season. It's not high art but it's not aiming to be.

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14 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I'm not sure why you'd think that men were the villain when it was clearly just misogynistic trolls - and regardless of what you think of any RL discourse, in the show they are explicitly that - and Jen was surrounded by a bunch of men that aren't villains. Pug, Emil, Bruce, Matt, her Dad... None of them were in that villain bucket. It was really just Todd, Josh and the guy that works at the DA that I think you could call actual characters that were villains here which are in that misogynistic trolls group.

I think it finished at about the same level as most of the season was for me - reasonably entertaining, I enjoyed having it on and will watch a second season. It's not high art but it's not aiming to be.

I mean really I was being glib when I said it was men, but that does not mean the show hasn't spent a shit ton of energy trying to make points about 'toxic masculinity' and painting men as various forms of idiot. It's only really Matt they didn't seem to be able to mess with. It's not surprising that the entire point of the season arc is Jen vs male misogynists, it just reinforces the victim narrative of the writers of the show: 

"We aren't bad writers, the show is good, anyone complaining or who doesn't like She-Hulk is a misogynist!" 

This is the reason the show is in any way notable. 
 

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That was pretty fun, and very reasonably close to the style of the comics without being the actual comics. I appreciated the change in how they broke the 4th wall and incorporated it into the Disney plus theme. And the criticisms are pretty on-point. 

I don't think it was groundbreaking or anything like that, and I wasn't holding my breath to watch it like I have been Andor or like I was with Loki, but it worked for me. And it worked a lot better than Falcon and Winter Soldier did, at least for me. Or Ms. Marvel, for that matter - and that's a show I wanted to genuinely love.

It's kind of interesting that so far they've put out a number of TV shows and virtually none of them are doing multiple seasons or even planning on it. The only one I'm aware of for sure is Loki. Everything else seems like it's just been bridging shows between movies - WandaVision and Dr. Strange, Ms Marvel and the Marvels, FaWS and Cap 4, Hawkeye and...uh...the next Hawkeye thingy (probably Thunderbolts?). Loki is also set up for that with Ant Man 3, but it also appears to have a life of its own outside of it. 

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The interesting question about KEVIN is that now that Disney has acknowledged the problem we’ve all discussed for a few years now…

Will they change that up?

And if they don’t, doesn’t this acknowledgment now make these stock endings worse?

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That was a really good episode. Just about the only way you could fittingly end the show, I think. Jen gets to end her show on her terms, rebels against the strictures placed on her by the (presumed) story in a way that fit her character and the ethos of the show itself. It was a satisfying way to finish.

I love that they just threw Skaar in there without a blink. That should be interesting.

Fairly sure Wong rescuing Emil won't go anywhere, on the other hand. We'll see, I guess.

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Is it just me or was the She-Hulk CGI the best during the meta portion of the finale? If so, well played.

I thought so too but then again the Abomination CGI was about the worst I've seen for that character. But again, could be deliberate?

4 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I think the writing in it was just a lot better than this. Like there was nothing in She-Hulk anywhere close to the scene between Kate and Yelena at her apartment

This is really comparing apples with oranges, though. Two completely different types of writing with different aims.

4 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I think the problems with this show for me can be summed up by the fact that I skipped two episodes entirely and was not in any way lost when I came back in last week, I didn't feel I'd missed anything.

That's a feature, not a bug. Again, feels like you're judging this show by the standards it's just spent the finale deliberately shredding.

4 hours ago, polishgenius said:

And in the end I feel like the entire point of the show was the Kevin scene, and everything else was just trying to figure out how to get her there.

And even that was a rather pale imitation of something Grant Morrison would have done.

Love Grant's work but can we stop comparing every meta character-meets-creator moment to their stuff? They didn't come up with that, even in comics!

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'm not sure why you'd think that men were the villain when it was clearly just misogynistic trolls

Some people struggle to differentiate between criticism of individual men or of aspects of male socialisation, and criticism of all men everywhere personally.

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

It's not high art but it's not aiming to be.

Agreed. It's an entertaining and honestly fairly mild deconstructive satire of the MCU, and also of sitcoms of a certain type. It succeeds at these things and is fun. I didn't really need anything else from it than that. It's always good to accept art for what it is, not what you expect it to be.

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Yea, I think I hated that final. It will take me an hour or two, to process what I just watched, but long story short, I'm glad I watched this week's episode of Stargirl first. To say that show blows She Hulk out of the water, would be an understatement, IMO.

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1 hour ago, mormont said:

Agreed. It's an entertaining and honestly fairly mild deconstructive satire of the MCU, and also of sitcoms of a certain type. It succeeds at these things and is fun. I didn't really need anything else from it than that. It's always good to accept art for what it is, not what you expect it to be.

I'd say 'deconstruction' and 'satire' are extremely generous terms to use for this show. For that to be true they would need to have some understanding of the genre and universe they are satirising and have some interesting commentary about it. She-Hulk doesn't really do that. It's essentially just using the MCU as a backdrop to do some goofy shit, it doesn't really care about the MCU or superheroes, it doesn't really get them.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

I thought so too but then again the Abomination CGI was about the worst I've seen for that character. But again, could be deliberate?

I'm trying to think of any scenario where this terrible CGI would deliberate. If that was deliberate was the rest of the terrible CGI also on purpose? Is the bad writing also deliberate? Was this all an incredibly clever joke on us all??

1 hour ago, mormont said:

I love that they just threw Skaar in there without a blink. That should be interesting.

Yeah.. interesting is one way to describe what they did there. Introducing the son of Hulk at a picnic as a throwaway joke is maybe only half as terrible as the physical appearance of Skaar. If this show was utterly detached from the MCU and was never supposed to be canon you could maybe handwave this stuff, the problem is that it kind of is canon. So now Skaar is some creepy badly rendered balding chad, Wong is a clown, Abomination is a very old Tim Roth slouching around doing yoga. That is interesting.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

This is really comparing apples with oranges, though. Two completely different types of writing with different aims.

There is so much handwaving for this show. The issue She-Hulk has is that it's not clear what it's aims are. If it's trying to just be a breezy lightweight sitcom, then it doesn't really achieve that because the humour is so forced, and it's also trying to do a bunch of other things, from being a superhero MCU show all the way to trying to make bold feminist statements about the state of the world. All it achieves is deep mediocrity.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

That's a feature, not a bug. Again, feels like you're judging this show by the standards it's just spent the finale deliberately shredding.

What they did in the finale is completely out of place with the rest of the season. It was basically a gimmick. You cannot judge the show by a couple of scenes and pretend that is the type of show we've been watching. Despite what it might think, the show isn't episodic, it does have a run through plot (or at least alluded to one until it basically gave up at the end) and being able to skip a couple of episodes and not miss anything is actually a sign that something is wrong. 

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So after running a few miles on my treadmill, I think I can finally process what I saw. I feel like the writers of this show realized, their story made no sense, which resulted in the 4th wall breaking final, that quite literally made me stop caring about anything that was happening in the show. It sort of reminded me of Gremlins 2, The Matrix Resurrection and Thor Love and Thunder, where it felt like the people making the project where also sabotaging it and destroying any reason you have to care about it. I'm fine with Jen talking to the camera, but having her walk into the writers room, talking to robot Kevin Feige and rewriting the ending in a way that makes even less sense, is going too far.

This might not be the worst thing the MCU has ever created, but it comes pretty close, IMO.

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I'd rate them:

(Werewolf)
Loki
Wandavision
Ms Marvel
Hawkeye
Moon Knight
Falcon 
What If
She Hulk

I had to look up the list because I forgot Moon Knight existed.

I did enjoy She-Hulk, shit like Leapfrog is right up my alley. Iffy CGI doesn't bother me. The 4th wall breaks annoy me though, I disliked the Deadpool movies for the same reason. Some stuff like Mr. Immortal just didn't land. I think I'm less a fan of Ruffalo's version of Banner/hulk as time goes on. I thought he was great in the first two Avengers. 

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