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US Politics: Hey wanna come to my office and see some Top Secret Eyes only documents?


Ser Scot A Ellison
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It's a bullshit decision - particularly the implied acceptance of Trump's privilege claims - but I really wouldn't hyperventilate over this.  It will delay the investigation, of course, but it's not particularly surprising a criminal investigation of a former president would be delayed -- nor that any former president could find a judge to go along with it.

The only real fear is if the special master prevents the DOJ from being able to eventually use certain documents in their investigation based on some bullshit privilege or privacy grounds.  It's possible that happens, sure, but there's no reason to jump to that conclusion.

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3 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

My formative and prep education has proven to be a fraud.

I mean in theory if you had a combination of an executive branch willing to go hard against criminals and some judges willing to exercise the law, that'd work. But there is nothing requiring those things or an actual competent exercise of the law. There are ample ways to ensure the system remains grossly unfair and privileges the rich and popular and white.

If you have a nation with a major party unwilling to enforce laws against it, you basically are free to do whatever you want.

 

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

 

The only real fear is if the special master prevents the DOJ from being able to eventually use certain documents in their investigation based on some bullshit privilege or privacy grounds.  It's possible that happens, sure, but there's no reason to jump to that conclusion.

Yes, what a ridiculous idea to think that a bullshit decision would be used to maximal bullshittery, no reason to jump to the conclusion that the request by Trump to get something would be used to benefit him

 

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1 minute ago, KalVsWade said:

Yes, what a ridiculous idea to think that a bullshit decision would be used to maximal bullshittery, no reason to jump to the conclusion that the request by Trump to get something would be used to benefit him

 

You don't even know who the special master is going to be yet.  And there are legitimate grounds in terms of privacy concerns to appoint one:

Quote

She noted that a still-sealed report of items seized by a Justice Department “filter team” — tasked with screening out attorney-client-privileged material — said that “medical documents, correspondence related to taxes, and accounting information” were among them.

So, yeah, you're jumping to conclusions, as per usual.

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10 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

You are far more optimistic than i am. I have very little faith we can pull off a free/fair election against the group that is unwilling to abide by a system of majority rules. They will not be deterred by simply having less votes.

DireWolfSpirit -- I’m confident it’ll be mostly free and fair (2020 proves it, don’t you think?). Correspondingly, when Uncle Joe wins, the minority will have to accept the outcome (e.g., the heavy-handed punishments against the J6 actors) or suffer severely.

The God Emperor’s supporters live adequate lives, not worth throwing away. I can’t see but a few who might go off the rails, and even then they’d have no success at changing outcomes.

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26 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

You are far more optimistic than i am. I have very little faith we can pull off a free/fair election against the group that is unwilling to abide by a system of majority rules. They will not be deterred by simply having less votes.

You're not really getting to grips with the cynical disingenuousness of the original comment. Wade knows full well that the voters already did hold Trump to account in 2019. They kicked him out. They did their bit. To suggest that voters are the backstop here is nonsense, smokescreen stuff. This isn't about democratic accountability. It's about the law.

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2 minutes ago, mormont said:

You're not really getting to grips with the cynical disingenuousness of the original comment. Wade knows full well that the voters already did hold Trump to account in 2019. They kicked him out. They did their bit. To suggest that voters are the backstop here is nonsense, smokescreen stuff. This isn't about democratic accountability. It's about the law.

mormont -- 2020 reinforces my thoughts on 2024. And that’s why the God Emperor will lose. The irony is that I’m more confident (not cynical) than the left wing, hahaha.

Nah, it’s not about the law. It’s about politics, informed by money. Don’t be gullible.

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Knowing that this Trump appointed judge will be tasked with appointing the Special Master, a position that is supposed to be neutral, is cause enough for concern.

Cause enough for concern in light of the recent past history over how the Mueller investigation has proven to a stacked deck that the A.G. simply squashed and ensured Trump would face no consequences.

Its not jumping to conclusion to doubt fair play or neutrality will be practiced when weve already been through previous slow motion train wrecks of Trumps impeachment and obstruction crimes being rubber stamped innocent by a Government/system that is proving unwilling/unable to hold him accountable.

We want to whine over Russian interference, we have far worse domestic enemies right in our highest reaches of government.

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2 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Knowing that this Trump appointed judge will be tasked with appointing the Special Master, a position that is supposed to be neutral, is cause enough for concern.

Cause enough for concern in light of the recent past history over how the Mueller investigation has proven to a stacked deck that the A.G. simply squashed and ensured Trump would face no consequences.

Its not jumping to conclusion to doubt fair play or neutrality will be practiced when weve already been through previous slow motion train wrecks of Trumps impeachment and obstruction crimes being rubber stamped innocent by a Government/system that is proving unwilling/unable to hold him accountable.

We want to whine over Russian interference, we have far worse domestic enemies right in our highest reaches of government.

I don't expect him to suffer any real consequences, but that they'd disregard the law so early in the process is depressing.

If it's jumping to conclusions he'll run out the clock, then so be it.

It's also mind-boggling to me that they haven't questioned him wrt a) having possibly shared the confidential documents and b) what happened to the docs in the empty folders.

Either these confidential things are really confidential and serious, possibly lives at stake, or they aren't. If the former is true, that should be a tad more important than the "reputation" of... of all people... FPOTUS. Seriously, Federalist and anti-vaxx nut or not, who would claim that he has a reputation to lose?!

Btw, his lawyer helpfully suggested himself to be made Special Master.

I also wish I had 10 bucks for every time I read in this thread that things wouldn't be so bad, but I was right in the end... I wish I wasn't, but still.

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2 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Its not jumping to conclusion to doubt fair play or neutrality will be practiced when weve already been through previous slow motion train wrecks of Trumps impeachment and obstruction crimes being rubber stamped innocent by a Government/system that is proving unwilling/unable to hold him accountable.

Plenty of people within the FBI/DOJ are already familiar with the contents of these documents.  Moreover, based on Cannon's own order today, Haines and the "intelligence community" will be assessing the documents as well (which really doesn't make sense considering her worry was about leaks, but whatever).  Cannon granting the special master request is clear bias, but hardly out of her purview. 

Appointing a special master that will then effectively obstruct justice - all the while knowing the DOJ and the intelligence community could prove you're obstructing justice - is a pretty big huge leap from simply allowing Trump to delay the investigation based on privacy/privilege grounds.  And let's not act like the judiciary - including Trump appointees - haven't routinely rebuffed Trump's ridiculous legal claims across the country literally since Election Day 2020.  Just because he won 1 out of, like, hundreds doesn't mean we have to get all grassy knoll about it.

1 minute ago, Mindwalker said:

If it's jumping to conclusions he'll run out the clock, then so be it.

What clock?  Under their own departmental guidelines the DOJ wouldn't have been able to bring/publicize charges until after the midterms anyway.

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

What clock?  Under their own departmental guidelines the DOJ wouldn't have been able to bring/publicize charges until after the midterms anyway.

Guidelines are just that, not set in stone. Didn't the FBI have the same guidelines?

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Just now, Mindwalker said:

Guidelines are just that, not set in stone. Didn't the FBI have the same guidelines?

Yes!  Which is why what Comey did was so fucked up.  Two wrongs don't make a right, especially if you're complaining about the lack of "the rule of law."

Moreover, substantively, I'm not sure announcing an indictment/whatever would hurt Republicans in the midterms.  Could have just the opposite impact - turn them out when they were otherwise not gonna.

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True, but I think anyone who'd be motivated to turn out for poor, witch-hunted Trump will do so because of the "raid" anyway.

And guidelines are not the law. I think there's at least a debate to be had about a dangerous criminal on the loose etc.

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3 minutes ago, DMC said:

There's no "law" that precludes a special master from being appointed either, but people keep bringing up "the rule of law" as if biased judges are anything new.  

As I understand it, they refer to executive privilege for a former executive as lawless, as that has been decided already. So appointing an SM to sort this out (in addition to the client-attoruney privilege stuff) is nonsense. But I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, have to read up on this. Not today, it's late and I have to watch a finale.

Edited by Mindwalker
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1 minute ago, Mindwalker said:

As I understand it, they refer to executive privilege for a former executive as lawless, as that has been decided already.

It's definitely bullshit - and as I said the implied decision here on executive privilege is indeed the most dangerous part about this (which, ultimately, doesn't really have to do with Trump), but referring to it as "lawless" is more just literary flair.

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1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

Nope! It turns out that the checks and balances we have are largely political and largely normative - there is massive discretion in practicing them or not. Have the right people in the right places and they simply don't matter. 

The remedies that the US population has at this point are extra legal at this point. 

 

1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

No, the voters won't matter here either thanks to many of the levers of voting being made obsolete combined with a willingness to use or threaten political violence. 

 

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

My formative and prep education has proven to be a fraud.

You are far more optimistic than i am. I have very little faith we can pull off a free/fair election against the group that is unwilling to abide by a system of majority rules. They will not be deterred by simply having less votes.

Yes! YES!!!

THEY want to STEAL your JUSTICE! YOU NEED TO FIGHT LIKE HELL TO SAVE YOUR JUSTICE you need to MAKE JUSTICE. 

CAPITULATION IS NOT NOBLE, IT IS COWARDICE 

Stop watching Batman and the Avengers. Become.

You have REAL enemies. They have REAL power and really powerful allies. Better to know. BETTER TO FIGHT LIKE HELL AND STOP THE STEAL

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

You don't even know who the special master is going to be yet.  And there are legitimate grounds in terms of privacy concerns to appoint one:

None of those concerns were brought up when asking for it. A big problem is simply the judge granting the request based on their reasoning, period. 

But yes, another problem is that the special master that will be appointed is going to be appointed by the same apparatus that granted it based on said bullshittery; there is no reason to assume that that person will not be incredibly biased.

Otherwise why ask for it at all?

1 hour ago, DMC said:

So, yeah, you're jumping to conclusions, as per usual.

I don't get why any level of optimism here is warranted. As usual you're assuming the best based on some 1960 theory of political discourse and an irrelevant historical basis. Let's try it a different way - Trump wants this. Do you think that it's likely he wants something that is completely irrelevant, or he wants it because it helps his case?

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17 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

@mcbigskiwhat's so funny?  That you're wrong?  Seriously, look at oil and gas production since Biden took office.  It's been increasing to more or less pre-pandemic levels.  And pretty sure we exported more in 2021 than 2019.

Oil production in the US is still behind 2020 levels (the year of the CCP endorsed lockdowns) and almost 10% behind 2019. This is even worse when you consider that under Trump oil production was increasing by more than 10% each year.

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