Mary Sue site article on the Velaryon casting

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, Jaak said:

The classist thing matters. Lannisters are natural blondes, though golden blondes not Targaryen silver. Aerys refused to marry his son to daughter of "servant", and ended up preferring Princess of Dorne - whose family due to autonomy stood above the Westerosi lords, though they are darker skinned. So how are Summer Islands princesses viewed? Do we get the name and story of Corlys´ mother?

I think the show still could kind of fly with the Summer Islander princess thing if they make Corlys' mother a Summer Islander princess ... because then the Velaryons could be more or less from the same stock as the Targaryens despite looking pretty differently in recent times. Kind of like the Baratheons - who are effectively a bastard Targaryen cadet branch through the male line - inherited the black hair of the Durrandons. But that still retain their Targaryen blood and that put them into the gene pool ahead of other people who have no Valyrian background.

The way it looks now it is confusing and unintentionally funny. To be sure, if they had properly depicted Princess Rhaenys as black-haired then it would also make sense to explain why that is if all the other Targaryens (and even Viserys' Arryn wife) do have the Valyrian looks.

Aerys being a snob towards Tywin has to be read as a clear insult. Even back after the Conquest the Lannisters were among the Westerosi houses best suited to marry into the royal family - on the same level as the Hightowers and the Arryns. And since the Targaryens have since then married Martells and Daynes and Blackwoods (not to mention some marrying Plumms and Penroses) a match between Rhaegar and Cersei wouldn't have been unusual at all.

[C.T. Phipps]

I think they're going with the idea there's black Valyrians and perhaps Lys might well include them alongside the white Valyrians.

This is a big change but they don't seem to ever state that Corys married outside of it.

(Unless the whole "pure Valyrian blood" thing is just a crock that, admittedly, we know the houses do regularly)

[sifth]

Isn't that website suppose to be one of the more toxic ones? I've only heard of it from others, but my friend tells me, they're basically one of those websites that exists mostly for the sake of fueling outrage culture.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Isn't that website suppose to be one of the more toxic ones? I've only heard of it from others, but my friend tells me, they're basically one of those websites that exists mostly for the sake of fueling outrage culture.

Their criticism tends to be very mild and from a feminist perspective. Also, generally light and entertaining.

Mind you, their take on House of the Dragons has been incredibly supportive.

https://www.themarysue.com/tag/house-of-the-dragon/

Their "outrage" on Game of Thrones was the fact they were all Daenerys fangrrls.

Recently, they did an article on how John Wick should rescue the Queen's corgis. Not exactly what I consider to be OUTRAGE CULTURE by the titles of what I see on Youtube.

[Annara Snow]

On 9/9/2022 at 12:34 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

What characters are they talking about?

Chataya and Alayaya?

[Annara Snow]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:07 PM, Jaak said:

Well, Rhaenyra is not a "pure-blooded Valyrian" either. Aemma was without question a close cousin of Viserys - first cousin, Aemma´s mother Daella was Viserys´ aunt. But Rhaenyra´s 4 grandparents included 3 Targaryens... the 4th was Rodrik Arryn. "White", but not Valyrian.

Searching about it, I found some high profile examples of blonde quadroons. Seems that hair colour is inherited by fewer genes than skin colour. Someone with 3 white blonde and 1 black grandparent can well be blonde. The examples offered: Amandus Becker; Mariah Carey; Jade Goody; Nicole Richie.

The attitude that "black man cannot be rich" is yes, a problem of few recent centuries - maybe specifically last century. "Cannot" not in the sense of "not possible" but as in "ough not to". Compare the widespread respect the Queen of Ukogbani got with the disrespect the King of Swaziland gets.

And it does not seem to be a feature in Westeros. There are very few Summer Islanders in Westeros, but those who show up seem to be treated as respectable peers.

And Laena could claim that she have 3 Valyrian grandparents out of 4, like Rhaenyra... good compared to some people who presumably were around and claimed to be Valyrian on the strength of 1 Valyrian grandfather out of 4, just that being the father´s father from whom name and property were inherited. But Viserys was whole another level... 2 grandparents, period, and 2 great-grandparents not 8 (Aenys and Alyssa).

There is no need to assume dark skinned blonde people must be mixed race. 

In real life, there's an example of an ethnicity with dark skin where there's a significant number of naturally blonde (golden haired) people- people from the Solomon Islands (who belong to the broader racial group of Melanesians). ITheir blonde hair gene has nothing to do with the European blonde hair gene.

You all have to stop treating Valyrians as a stand in for real world Europeans or Sub-Saharan Africans. Valyrians are a fantasy, fictional ethnicity. There's no real world ethnicity with silver hair and purple eyes. If we can accept that, we can also accept that they can have a variety of skin tones. 

The most obvious sign that the whole controversy is fuelled by racism is the fact that the same people complaining about Corlys are not complaining because no one has purple eyes in either GoT or HotD, which is a much bigger departure from the books. 

Ditto people saying Steve Toussaint doesn't look natural and convincing in a silver wig - as if any of the actors playing Targaryens do. From Emilia Clarke to Paddy Considine and Milly Alcock, they are all obvious brunettes - the casting directors didn't go and cast pale, fair haired Nordic people with light eyebrows - but no one has a problem with that. Until there are POC involved.

[Ran]

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

because no one has purple eyes in either GoT or HotD, which is a much bigger departure from the books. 

That's because GoT went that way 11 years ago, and do you expect people to mention it every time? Folks complained about it back then (we certainly noted it and were bugged by it!), but it's now quite moot. Now people remark about this new show making a change from the canon -- a change acknowledged by the showrunners -- and people are going to lay out why it bugs them while the show is new.

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 Valyrians are a fantasy, fictional ethnicity. There's no real world ethnicity with silver hair and purple eyes. If we can accept that, we can also accept that they can have a variety of skin tones. 

I know of no other ethnic group with a variety of completely different skin tones. I know of ethnic groups where some particular hair color and eye color is more predominant. You'd have more of a point if the Valyrians had green skin or something, and they changed them to purple.

 

[chadliii]

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[Annara Snow]

19 hours ago, Ran said:

That's because GoT went that way 11 years ago, and do you expect people to mention it every time? Folks complained about it back then (we certainly noted it and were bugged by it!), but it's now quite moot. Now people remark about this new show making a change from the canon -- a change acknowledged by the showrunners -- and people are going to lay out why it bugs them while the show is new.

I know of no other ethnic group with a variety of completely different skin tones. I know of ethnic groups where some particular hair color and eye color is more predominant. You'd have more of a point if the Valyrians had green skin or something, and they changed them to purple.

"You'd have more of a point if the Valyrians had green skin or something, and they changed them to purple."

If the Valyrians had green skin and they changed them to purple, you can be damn sure no one would give a damn. Can you guess why? I'll give you a hint: something starting with R is at play here.

African Americans have a variety of completely different skin tones. 

South Asians have a variety of completely different skin tones.  From the north to the south, it's a huge difference.

Southeast Asians have a variety of completely different skin tones. From the north to the south of Thailand, it's a huge difference. Filipinos go all the way from light skinned (like many of those of Chinese descent) to very dark skinned (with a significant amount of indigenous DNA).

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 I know of ethnic groups where some particular hair color and eye color is more predominant.

And I also know of those where there are not (most Europeans... and I just listed another group - Melanesians from the Solomon Islonds - where not everyone has the same hair color.

Some Valyrians being dark skinned is not a "significant departure from canon". Show me where in the canon it says that Valyrians are universally pale skinned?

The Qartheen/Milk Men are those who are described a pale skinned. That is their defining characteristic. The Valyrians? Silver hair, purple eyes. 

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That's because GoT went that way 11 years ago, and do you expect people to mention it every time?

So they got over it? Was it ever such a widespread complaint? I very much doubt that.

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You'd have more of a point if the Valyrians had green skin or something, and they changed them to purple.

If the Valyrians had green skin and they changed them to purple, you know what would happen? Nobody would care, as long as those were all white actors under that purple paint.

ETA: BTW, if we're talking about realism and the real world, it would make way more sense for all Valyrians to be dark skinned, considering the climate of the area where they live ,and that there is absolutely no indication that the originally came from anywhere else, let alone some place far up north with little sunshine.

[Ran]

22 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

African Americans have a variety of completely different skin tones. 

The hint might possibly be in the name. Many African Americans have not just African lineages. That said, those who are found to have pretty much 100% African haplogroups in their DNA all tend to have what is called black skin. Some might be a bit darker, some might be a bit lighter, but it's one range of skin. Unless of course you're an albino, which happens. Is a genetic exception, not a racial trait.

22 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

South Asians have a variety of completely different skin tones.  From the north to the south, it's a huge difference.

That is possibly because "South Asian" is not an ethnic group. It is a geographic grouping of many different ethnic groups.

22 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Filipinos go all the way from light skinned (like many of those of Chinese descent) to very dark skinned (with a significant amount of indigenous DNA).

There are nearly 200 ethnic groups in the Philippines. George has described the Valyrians in Valyria as being one race/ ethnic group, not hundreds. 

22 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

 

 

22 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

The Qartheen/Milk Men are those who are described a pale skinned. That is their defining characteristic. The Valyrians? Silver hair, purple eyes. 

The pale skin of Valyria is explicitly referenced in both the World of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood. Daenaera Velaryon's skin being pale as winter snow is explicitly indicated as evidence of the blood of Valyria being strong in the Velaryon family.

The thing is you're trying to argue against the showrunners of the show who say they have changed things from the book canon. You do not have to take my word for it, you can look up their interview at EW and you can read George's own words at his not a blog when he discussed the fact that he saw the singular race of the Valyrians as being indicative of their obsession with purity of blood, that this obsession kind of necessitates people of long pure high Valyrian lineages that are genetic in origin are going to look alike.

The show went a different direction, it doesn't quite make sense if you dig into it, but they are far more honest than some fans about about what they did and why they did it, which I very much appreciate. There was entirely too much gas lighting trying to convince people that they misunderstood the text in the months leading up to the show.

22 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

 

 

[Annara Snow]

27 minutes ago, Ran said:

The hint might possibly be in the name. Many African Americans have not just African lineages. That said, those who are found to have pretty much 100% African haplogroups in their DNA all tend to have what is called black skin. Some might be a bit darker, some might be a bit lighter, but it's one range of skin. Unless of course you're an albino, which happens. Is a genetic exception, not a racial trait.

That is possibly because "South Asian" is not an ethnic group. It is a geographic grouping of many different ethnic groups.

There are nearly 200 ethnic groups in the Philippines. George has described the Valyrians in Valyria as being one race/ ethnic group, not hundreds. 

 

The pale skin of Valyria is explicitly referenced in both the World of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood. Daenaera Velaryon's skin being pale as winter snow is explicitly indicated as evidence of the blood of Valyria being strong in the Velaryon family.

The thing is you're trying to argue against the showrunners of the show who say they have changed things from the book canon. You do not have to take my word for it, you can look up their interview at EW and you can read George's own words at his not a blog when he discussed the fact that he saw the singular race of the Valyrians as being indicative of their obsession with purity of blood, that this obsession kind of necessitates people of long pure high Valyrian lineages that are genetic in origin are going to look alike.

The show went a different direction, it doesn't quite make sense if you dig into it, but they are far more honest than some fans about about what they did and why they did it, which I very much appreciate. There was entirely too much gas lighting trying to convince people that they misunderstood the text in the months leading up to the show.

 

And Valyrians are a homogenous ethnic group...?

I don't need your explanations about the origins of African Americans etc. - I know all that. But various ethnic and racial groups in real life are mixed from different backgrounds. Sometimes that mixing goes thousands of years in the past (Southeast Asians and Polynesian, for instance). But fictional groups must be homogenous because reasons? 

(And like I said, if the Valyrians were homogenous and had the same skin tone, it would, if you're going for realism, have to be dark rather than pale, considering the climate.)

Ome person's skin tone is not necessarily all Valyrians' skin tone. But I do find it interesting that Valyrian pale skin is only mentioned in The World of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood, rather than in the main series. You are basically arguing for something you were personally  involved in making canon  

As for the showrunners saying they changed canon - well yes, but in the sense of 'we added something that was never said in canon" rather than "we erased or changed something that was explicitly said in canon." Xaro Xoan Daxos being dark skinned would be a real example of the latter - but it seems people freaked out far less about that. Not that many people as that invested in gatekeeping the Milk Men as white people, compared to how many are invested in gatekeeping Valyrians as white people.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 9/8/2022 at 6:30 PM, Lord Varys said:

At best some Dornish look like southern Europeans ... they are not analogous to Hispanic and Latina folks in the Americas or the Caribbean.

I know Martin has made some general comments about the Salty Dornish being intended to look Mediterranean more than anything but tbf I believe he’s said before that he envisions Arianne Martell as looking like Apollonia Kotero, who is of Mexican descent, so I think the Dornish have a range of phenotypes that overlaps with multiple different groups IRL.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I know Martin has made some general comments about the Salty Dornish being intended to look Mediterranean more than anything but tbf I believe he’s said before that he envisions Arianne Martell as looking like Apollonia Kotero, who is of Mexican descent, so I think the Dornish have a range of phenotypes that overlaps with multiple different groups IRL.

To be sure, Americans talking about the skin colors of Europeans is most likely not going to lead to experts talking about that subject. Having travelled Greece and Italy quite extensively I have to say that the woman you mention could easily pass for a Greek woman.

Which means, in the end, the comparison to real world ethnicities makes little sense. The reason why it matters in connection to casting decisions and the like is though when folks make claims that the Dornish translate more or less directly to a marginalized group in the US (or other parts of the Americas) when in fact that's simply not the case.

8 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

And Valyrians are a homogenous ethnic group...?

The Valyrians as in the denizens of Valyria the city we know nothing about. But we do know enough about Valyrian nobility to know that they kept their bloodlines pure - some practiced incest, others marry only among their own class (like the Old Blood of Volantis - although they also might continue the incest thing, so far we don't know).

That means by default that closely related members from noble houses would look very much alike - like the Velaryons and the Targaryens do in the books.

We also know some things about the Lyseni, namely that many commoners there retain Valyrian looks.

The issue here isn't so much that the Velaryons are black now - but that they look distinctly different than the Targaryens and so far this hasn't been explained. If they had gone with the Summer Islanders marrying into the family it could have worked easily enough. There being black Valyrian nobility back in Valyria doesn't work so much because that kind of defeats the whole incestuous marriage policy routine.

After all, what's established and what the show should have retained is the whole thing about the Velaryons and the Targaryens being the closest of cousins at the time of the show.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

Technically a strict usage of “pure Valyrian blood” by Laena or Corlys already doesn’t make sense regardless of his ancestry since Rhaenys is not 100% Valyrian (Orys’s mother presumably wasn’t Valyrian, Argella definitely wasn’t, and we don’t know who Rogar’s mother was but don’t have reason to think she was) so I think that needs to be interpreted with some leeway either way.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Having travelled Greece and Italy quite extensively I have to say that the woman you mention could easily pass for a Greek woman.

Sure, my grandpa was a pretty dark skinned (for a white person) guy whose parents were from Southern Italy. I know people in Southern Europe can look like that, but at the same time there’s a wide variety of appearance in Latin American and a lot of people there who have mixed race ancestry look like Apollonia, that’s all I was saying.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Technically a strict usage of “pure Valyrian blood” by Laena or Corlys already doesn’t make sense regardless of his ancestry since Rhaenys is not 100% Valyrian (Orys’s mother presumably wasn’t Valyrian, Argella definitely wasn’t, and we don’t know who Rogar’s mother was but don’t have reason to think she was) so I think that needs to be interpreted with some leeway either way.

There's also the fact that Valyrian nobility is different from Valyrian peasantry.

The Targaryens are Valyrian nobility and the Velaryon are just Valyrian in general.

Patrician Romans versus Plebs.

[Annara Snow]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The Valyrians as in the denizens of Valyria the city we know nothing about. But we do know enough about Valyrian nobility to know that they kept their bloodlines pure - some practiced incest, others marry only among their own class (like the Old Blood of Volantis - although they also might continue the incest thing, so far we don't know).

That means by default that closely related members from noble houses would look very much alike - like the Velaryons and the Targaryens do in the books.

We also know some things about the Lyseni, namely that many commoners there retain Valyrian looks.

The issue here isn't so much that the Velaryons are black now - but that they look distinctly different than the Targaryens and so far this hasn't been explained. If they had gone with the Summer Islanders marrying into the family it could have worked easily enough. There being black Valyrian nobility back in Valyria doesn't work so much because that kind of defeats the whole incestuous marriage policy routine.

After all, what's established and what the show should have retained is the whole thing about the Velaryons and the Targaryens being the closest of cousins at the time of the show.

This goes back to the questiion, why did the Targaryens (and any other dragonriding Valyrian familiews) practice incest? One often suggested reason is that the Targaryens practice incest because of their desire to maximize the chances of the dragonriding gene passing to their descendents. In that case, intermarrying with the Velaryons in Valyria would make little sense as they have been estabslished as not being dragonriders.

[Annara Snow]

11 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Technically a strict usage of “pure Valyrian blood” by Laena or Corlys already doesn’t make sense regardless of his ancestry since Rhaenys is not 100% Valyrian (Orys’s mother presumably wasn’t Valyrian, Argella definitely wasn’t, and we don’t know who Rogar’s mother was but don’t have reason to think she was) so I think that needs to be interpreted with some leeway either way.

Anyone who ever talks about "blood purity" in any context is talking nonsense. So the more incorrect and absurd such dialogue is, the better.

  

11 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Sure, my grandpa was a pretty dark skinned (for a white person) guy whose parents were from Southern Italy. I know people in Southern Europe can look like that, but at the same time there’s a wide variety of appearance in Latin American and a lot of people there who have mixed race ancestry look like Apollonia, that’s all I was saying.

Case in point: in the popular US view of race, Europeans are all of pure white European origin (as are white Americans, unless some of them claims to have distant Native American origin), while Latin Americans are all people of color. In reality, not only are there Latin Americans with all sorts of backgrounds, including those that really are as white as possible, but Europeans aren't all 100% white either, as reflected in results of DNA tests.

There are people with considerable amount of North African/Middle Eastern DNA in Southern Europe. Romani people have been in Europe since the 12th century and, even considering the extreme racism against them, some mixing was sure to happen from time to time. And there's also the usual relatively low levels of Central Asian DNA going back to the time of Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Mongols etc.

(Also, Americans who consider themselves 100% white sometimes get a big surprise in their DNA tests as it turns out they have a notable percentage of Sub-Saharan African DNA they didn't know about. Probably an ancestor who was 'passing' and most people weren't aware of their origin.)

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Case in point: in the popular US view of race, Europeans are all of pure white European origin (as are white Americans, unless some of them claims to have distant Native American origin), while Latin Americans are all people of color.

Not sure how you read that as me saying all  Latin Americans are people of color. I said many Latin Americans of mixed ancestry look like Apollonia Kotero, which is true.

And to the extent it matters, for the record I have done Ancestry DNA as has my mom and many others in our extended family and non-European ancestry either doesn’t show up or is like 1% depending on the person and the update. A European having a relatively dark appearance doesn’t necessarily mean they have substantial non-European ancestry even if some do.

[Ran]

12 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

the Velaryon are just Valyrian in general.

The Velaryons are in origin Valyrian nobility, "[a] noble house with a storied Valyrian lineage" (F&B) even before Corlys existed. Their words are "The Old, The True, The Brave". They just weren't dragonriders, so they were second tier nobility.

I don't think the show has changed any of that.