Mary Sue site article on the Velaryon casting

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Sure, my grandpa was a pretty dark skinned (for a white person) guy whose parents were from Southern Italy. I know people in Southern Europe can look like that, but at the same time there’s a wide variety of appearance in Latin American and a lot of people there who have mixed race ancestry look like Apollonia, that’s all I was saying.

Oh, the point here was more that the whole racist real world stuff is not supposed to be transferred to Westeros there, since the author didn't imagine them as PoC. There is, of course, racism/slander going on between the Dornish and their neighbors, but that's because of the constant conflict and the (slightly) different customs, etc.

Although the silly book of the Young Dragon pretty much exoticizing the Dornish with his arbitrary 'three types of Dornishmen'. No idea if that was intentional back in ASoS, but it is clearly the view of a foreign conqueror or colonizer on the natives. Which is not unfitting considering what Daeron I actually pulled there.

16 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Technically a strict usage of “pure Valyrian blood” by Laena or Corlys already doesn’t make sense regardless of his ancestry since Rhaenys is not 100% Valyrian (Orys’s mother presumably wasn’t Valyrian, Argella definitely wasn’t, and we don’t know who Rogar’s mother was but don’t have reason to think she was) so I think that needs to be interpreted with some leeway either way.

Of course. That goes without saying. Their ideal is to introduce as little 'outsider blood' as necessary, but the ideal is not always met. And to be sure, in practice the Targaryens are not all that incestuous if you look at the later marriages (although all the Velaryon matches, the Rogare match, and any other female line cousin matches we might not yet recognize as such fit with the 'keeping the bloodline pure' policy to some degree ... although, of course, Larra Rogare wasn't chosen as Viserys' bride for that reason - but she was still a very fitting bride from that perspective).

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

This goes back to the questiion, why did the Targaryens (and any other dragonriding Valyrian familiews) practice incest? One often suggested reason is that the Targaryens practice incest because of their desire to maximize the chances of the dragonriding gene passing to their descendents. In that case, intermarrying with the Velaryons in Valyria would make little sense as they have been estabslished as not being dragonriders.

Well, we know it started as a practice among the dragonlords because they wanted 'to keep the blood of the dragon pure'. FaB makes it clear it was a practice common in Valyria especially (but not exclusively) among the dragonlord families.

This could mean that the sorcerer families did a similar thing to preserve their magical abilities (George has recently revealed that there was an overlap between Valyrian dragonlord families and the Valyrian sorcerer families, but some folks were only dragonlords, and some other folks only sorcerers) and/or that the lesser nobility ended up mimicking their dragonlord/sorcerer betters, taking up the incest themselves.

In part this could have been motivated by the dragonlord/sorcerer families being so fertile that they spread out, creating dragonless, less powerful cadet branches. The Old Blood of Volantis are called the cousins and kin of the dragonlords, after all, yet they never had dragons but still marry only amongst their own behind their black wall (although we don't know if they actually to practice incest - they could just marry amongst a very inbred elite).

The obvious reason why the Velaryons are so intermarried with the Targaryens in the first century is that there was at least one Targaryen (Valaena Velaryon's nameless mother) who married into House Velaryon prior to the Conquest. Presumably she was not the only one (after all, some daughter of Gaemon the Glorious also married outside the family, some petty lord). This gave the Velaryons Targaryen blood in addition to their own Valyrian blood (which could also include some dragonlord blood from before the Doom - that the Velaryons were never a dragonlord house doesn't mean they have no dragonlord ancestors) and that's what brings the Targaryens to the Velaryons when they look for brides when there are no sisters or male line Targaryen cousins to wed. Just as later on Aemma Arryn is, presumably, chosen as Viserys' bride because of her Targaryen mother and not because of her Arryn father.

The show seems to be creating the ridiculous scenario of there having been no Targaryen-Velaryon match prior to Rhaenys-Corlys despite the fact that they are the last two (powerful) Valyrian houses in Westeros. That is just odd as hell.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The show seems to be creating the ridiculous scenario of there having been no Targaryen-Velaryon match prior to Rhaenys-Corlys despite the fact that they are the last two (powerful) Valyrian houses in Westeros. That is just odd as hell.

If that is what they’re doing it seems like an odd choice if they ever decide to adapt earlier Targ history. Are they really just going to cut Valaena and Alyssa from an adaptation of the Conquest or Maegor’s reign (or Jaehaerys)? They acknowledged that Rhaenys is related to the Baratheons in episode 1, is Jocelyn’s mother supposed to be some random woman? I think a much cleaner explanation is Corlys’s father marrying a princess or noblewoman from the Summer Islands.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

pretty much exoticizing the Dornish with his arbitrary 'three types of Dornishmen'.

That's not what exoticizing is? He's giving a roughly accurate account of Dorne's ethnocultural groups based on its demographic history. That's like calling the UK "exotic" because there are Irish, Scots, Welsh, Cornish, and English.

Like, literally, here's what's said right after Tyrion thinks about Daeron's three groups:

Quote

All three sorts seemed well represented in Doran's retinue. The salty Dornishmen were lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair streaming in the wind. The sandy Dornishmen were even darker, their faces burned brown by the hot Dornish sun. They wound long bright scarfs around their helms to ward off sunstroke. The stony Dornishmen were biggest and fairest, sons of the Andals and the First Men, brown haired or blond, with faces that freckled or burned in the sun instead of browning.

 

[Lord Varys]

32 minutes ago, Ran said:

That's not what exoticizing is? He's giving a roughly accurate account of Dorne's ethnocultural groups based on its demographic history. That's like calling the UK "exotic" because there are Irish, Scots, Welsh, Cornish, and English.

It seems to be an arbitrary categorization done by a foreign conqueror. There is no hint that Daeron followed on any, well, Dornish categorizations of the Dornishmen. I'd be very surprised if a Dornishman used those names or even cared enough about the 'differences' Daeron made out there.

This feels like some powerful dude inventing 'types of Dornishmen' like folks in the 18th invented 'races of man'.

The exoticizing aspect there is that we don't have this for 'heartland Westeros as such'. Nobody talks about the different types of Rivermen or folks from the Reach ... but we do get this kind of thing for Dorne, the more obscure Northern tribes in TWoIaF, and the folks outside of Westeros, etc.

[C.T. Phipps]

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

If that is what they’re doing it seems like an odd choice if they ever decide to adapt earlier Targ history. Are they really just going to cut Valaena and Alyssa from an adaptation of the Conquest or Maegor’s reign (or Jaehaerys)? They acknowledged that Rhaenys is related to the Baratheons in episode 1, is Jocelyn’s mother supposed to be some random woman? I think a much cleaner explanation is Corlys’s father marrying a princess or noblewoman from the Summer Islands.

A reminder they have released official material that lists King Joe's mother as a Velaryon. Fans are the ONLY people who have stated that there are no earlier matches. Given George's status as supervising things and restoring King Joe II, I have no doubt it is much-much more faithful to the book in the family tree.

But they also seem to be making it clear the Velaryons are not black because of Summer Islander blood but the decision to make Valyrian nobility multiracial in preparation, possibly, for any depiction of Valyria on screen. Given the plans for some of the shows, that may well be something they're laying the groundwork for.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems to be an arbitrary categorization done by a foreign conqueror. There is no hint that Daeron followed on any, well, Dornish categorizations of the Dornishmen. I'd be very surprised if a Dornishman used those names or even cared enough about the 'differences' Daeron made out there.

This feels like some powerful dude inventing 'types of Dornishmen' like folks in the 18th invented 'races of man'.

The exoticizing aspect there is that we don't have this for 'heartland Westeros as such'. Nobody talks about the different types of Rivermen or folks from the Reach ... but we do get this kind of thing for Dorne, the more obscure Northern tribes in TWoIaF, and the folks outside of Westeros, etc.

I always wondered who the Rhoynar married with to make the Dorne.

I liked the little tidbits that Martin drops about the fact that Westeros' "First Men" were not actually a homogeneous ethnic group and the Iron Born don't identify as being ethnically the same as the Wildlings and Northerners.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems to be an arbitrary categorization done by a foreign conqueror.

But... it's not? Like he made an observation and gave a name to it that is repeated, but we literally have Tyrion point out the three groups are clearly represented among Oberyn's retinue. He hasn't made them up. They are real.

Do you think the Dornish themselves are blind to the fact that some of them have more Rhoynar blood than others? That would be very strange. They may not have had the same salty/stony/sandy idea, but they certainly were aware that there were three regional spaces that had differing spreads of the Rhoynar.

We also know there are some differences culturally between the regions, some of it made explicit in Tyrion's remarks -- the sandy Dornish are likelier to wrap cloths around their helms, the stony Dornish have a more violent history reflected in their heraldry and their use of more "primitive" styles like the Wyl o fWyl, the men among the salty Dornish in the era of ASoIaF wear their hair particularly long, and doubtless other things. 

Quote

Nobody talks about the different types of Rivermen or folks from the Reach

Because every other region is made up of basically just two groups (First Men and Andals) who were more closely similar in appearance and have intermarried for thousands of years. But, like, the First Men are darker than the Andals, and the northmen having less Andal blood tend to be darker than, say, the Lannisters with lots of Andal of blood.

But Dorne has just had this influx 1,000 years ago. In another 3,000 years, everything may well have evened out.

Quote

... but we do get this kind of thing for Dorne, the more obscure Northern tribes in TWoIaF, and the folks outside of Westeros, etc.

Because it makes sense that these groups actually look different, because of cultural or demographic reasons...

[Annara Snow]

8 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Not sure how you read that as me saying all  Latin Americans are people of color. I said many Latin Americans of mixed ancestry look like Apollonia Kotero, which is true.

And to the extent it matters, for the record I have done Ancestry DNA as has my mom and many others in our extended family and non-European ancestry either doesn’t show up or is like 1% depending on the person and the update. A European having a relatively dark appearance doesn’t necessarily mean they have substantial non-European ancestry even if some do.

I don't know where you got the idea that I was talking about you? Or why you're talking about your own background as a proof everyone in Latin America is a POC?  Gisele Bundchen would most likely get between 99% and 100% European ancestry, seeing how her family has been a bunch of Germans intermarrying generations back. 

And I'm not saying that quite a few Europeans have non-European/non-white ancestry going back hundeds and thousands of years because they look dark, but because actual DNA tests have shown that, and because Eyrope was not magically free of POC until the 20th century or something. There were plenty of POC living in Europe in the Middle Ages and later. I just named the major examples. For minor ones, heck, there was even a black community in the port town of Ulcinj in Montenegro until recently.

The idea of Europe as a magical land of white people isolated by an invisible wall from the rest of the world and even from non-white ethnic groups that lived in it, like the Romani, where every single person was 100% white until about a hundred years ago, is not based on facts and is also really ridiculous.

I didn't think I'd get such an angry reaction to stating that there's no such thing as blood purity on any larger scale. Oh well!

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

If that is what they’re doing it seems like an odd choice if they ever decide to adapt earlier Targ history. Are they really just going to cut Valaena and Alyssa from an adaptation of the Conquest or Maegor’s reign (or Jaehaerys)? They acknowledged that Rhaenys is related to the Baratheons in episode 1, is Jocelyn’s mother supposed to be some random woman? I think a much cleaner explanation is Corlys’s father marrying a princess or noblewoman from the Summer Islands.

It looks like that since no Targaryen-Velaryon matches are mentioned in episode 2 and, according to Ran, they are going to celebrate the fact that Rhaenyra's heirs will have Velaryon blood thanks to Laenor in the next ... which is ridiculous considering who the mother of Jaehaerys and the mother of Aegon I are in the books.

In context, I think the Summer Islander match is something they should go with, perhaps for the Corlys show, but they could just as well introduce it in season 2. Not only would that save the whole blood purity talk from Laena and other characters ... but it would also hammer home the fact that the Velaryons being dark-skinned didn't really affect their Valyrian ancestry nor made them less desirable as marriage prospects for the Targaryens.

Right now one could go with a racist interpretation there, suggesting the Targaryens didn't consider the dark-skinned Velaryons 'worthy enough' to make matches with them prior to Corlys' rise to the richest man in Westeros. Never mind their Valyrian blood.

[C.T. Phipps]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It looks like that since no Targaryen-Velaryon matches are mentioned in episode 2 and, according to Ran, they are going to celebrate the fact that Rhaenyra's heirs will have Velaryon blood thanks to Laenor in the next ... which is ridiculous considering who the mother of Jaehaerys and the mother of Aegon I are in the books.

In context, I think the Summer Islander match is something they should go with, perhaps for the Corlys show, but they could just as well introduce it in season 2. Not only would that save the whole blood purity talk from Laena and other characters ... but it would also hammer home the fact that the Velaryons being dark-skinned didn't really affect their Valyrian ancestry nor made them less desirable as marriage prospects for the Targaryens.

Right now one could go with a racist interpretation there, suggesting the Targaryens didn't consider the dark-skinned Velaryons 'worthy enough' to make matches with them prior to Corlys' rise to the richest man in Westeros. Never mind their Valyrian blood.

https://i.imgur.com/Y7JILZb.jpg

Just saying this was released.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I don't know where you got the idea that I was talking about you?

You literally quoted my post and said "Case in point," why would I not think you were talking about me?

3 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Or why you're talking about your own background as a proof everyone in Latin America is a POC? 

This is the second time you've put these words in my mouth, I literally never said or even implied that.

3 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I didn't think I'd get such an angry reaction to stating that there's no such thing as blood purity on any larger scale. Oh well!

I'm not angry or taking issue with the idea that blood purity is bullshit, I responded because I felt that you were misrepresenting what I was saying. 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

5 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

A reminder they have released official material that lists King Joe's mother as a Velaryon. Fans are the ONLY people who have stated that there are no earlier matches. Given George's status as supervising things and restoring King Joe II, I have no doubt it is much-much more faithful to the book in the family tree.

But they also seem to be making it clear the Velaryons are not black because of Summer Islander blood but the decision to make Valyrian nobility multiracial in preparation, possibly, for any depiction of Valyria on screen. Given the plans for some of the shows, that may well be something they're laying the groundwork for.

In that case my question would be how do you reconcile these two things? We saw Jaehaerys, he's a pasty white guy. If his mother and great-grandmother (who was the mother of both of his paternal grandparents and thus biologically equivalent to his grandmother) were black then he should have been portrayed by a black actor, and the same goes for Viserys, Daemon, etc.

[Lord Varys]

38 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

In that case my question would be how do you reconcile these two things? We saw Jaehaerys, he's a pasty white guy. If his mother and great-grandmother (who was the mother of both of his paternal grandparents and thus biologically equivalent to his grandmother) were black then he should have been portrayed by a black actor, and the same goes for Viserys, Daemon, etc.

Yes, of course, that's the heart of that issue. The defining trait about both the Targaryens and the Velaryons here is that they are very much interrelated and should just look very much alike - the Targaryens even more, of course, considering that that Viserys' parents and grandparents and great-grandparents were siblings, and his great-grandparents and great-great-great-grandparents close cousins.

And that also affects the Baratheons, considering Alyssa Velaryon happens to be the mother (or, in the show) grandmother of Boremund Baratheon and Rhaenys' mother Jocelyn Baratheon. The Baratheons and, especially, Rhaenys should then also be portrayed by (somewhat) dark(er)-skinned actors.

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

https://i.imgur.com/Y7JILZb.jpg

Just saying this was released.

If take this as show canon they should indeed go with the Summer Islander idea. If not, then it is all odd.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

In that case my question would be how do you reconcile these two things? We saw Jaehaerys, he's a pasty white guy. If his mother and great-grandmother (who was the mother of both of his paternal grandparents and thus biologically equivalent to his grandmother) were black then he should have been portrayed by a black actor, and the same goes for Viserys, Daemon, etc.

Dragon magic.

But mind you, in RL, I've met plenty of white passing self-identified black people and people of mixed race that I feel like a lot of people would not be able to tell where black. The thing is about Laenor is that his children have a white mother and grandmother.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

17 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

But mind you, in RL, I've met plenty of white passing self-identified black people and people of mixed race that I feel like a lot of people would not be able to tell where black. The thing is about Laenor is that his children have a white mother and grandmother.

Sure, I know some mixed people can pass for white, but I don’t think you’ll find too many people with the equivalent of three black grandparents who look like Jaehaerys, Daemon, and Viserys. And in HOTD even Corlys’s grandchildren are played by black actresses.

[Ran]

Yeah, we're not going to do that thing where people start getting rude to one another. If you can't be civil, don't post.