The Gold Price of Iron

[Reekazoid]

Ok so, the Ironborn scoff at the notion of buying items of value using their own money, right?

 How do they get their ships in which to go a-reavin’?  Do you suppose they wait for a shipwright to build a ship, and then kill the guy and take the ship?

Or maybe everyone is expected to build their own ship? 
 

Maybe ships are all built by thralls, and then the IB take the ship from the thralls.  This way the ships  technically cost nothing because thralls don’t have property rights.. and they don’t have to kill skilled shipwrights. 
 

I’m being slightly facetious but I’m just wondering how the economy of the Iron Islands works.  I don’t recall any mention of buying and selling in the iB chapters.  

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

The Ironborn do trade, they sell iron and steel in exchange of goods coming from the mainland and other lands. 

Despite what that hypocrital fool of Balon Greyjoy claim, most of what modern Ironborn earn is through this trade, mining, fishing and sowing in the Iron Islands, and he doesn't have to steal anything with his taxes incomes. 

[Craving Peaches]

The whole situation with the Ironborn is confusing. How do they have enough people on their tiny islands to man a huge fleet? Why do people not leave the Iron Islands for other parts of Westeros (they are awful)? And as you say, how can they get wood for their fleet without paying the gold price? Especially after the end of their last rebellion, there was no possibility of them reaving unless it was ages away in Essos, and I don't think the throne would just let them rebuild their fleet.

I would conclude that this all means more Ironborn are willing to just pay the gold price than we know and aren't that fussed about the old way, but then Euron etc. who say they'll return to the old way get a lot of support so I don't know.

I also don't really know how the historical ironborn sustained themselves before they got the Riverlands, though it would have been easier to raid separate kingdoms.

Balon also confuses me when he chides Theon for not paying the Iron Price for his clothes. Up until very recently he was still Ned's ward. What did Balon expect him to do, break the law for a father he didn't expect to see, who didn't care for him at all? At best Theon could have taken the clothes off someone who died in one of Robb's battles, clothes that would most likely be torn, bloody rags that no one would want to wear.

The whole situation with the islands right now is a shame because Quellon seemed like he was making good progress in reforming their society before he died.

The religion of the Drowned God seems to be the biggest obstacle to reforming Ironborn society.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The whole situation with the Ironborn is confusing. How do they have enough people on their tiny islands to man a huge fleet? Why do people not leave the Iron Islands for other parts of Westeros (they are awful)? And as you say, how can they get wood for their fleet without paying the gold price? Especially after the end of their last rebellion, there was no possibility of them reaving unless it was ages away in Essos, and I don't think the throne would just let them rebuild their fleet.

I would conclude that this all means more Ironborn are willing to just pay the gold price than we know and aren't that fussed about the old way, but then Euron etc. who say they'll return to the old way get a lot of support so I don't know.

I also don't really know how the historical ironborn sustained themselves before they got the Riverlands, though it would have been easier to raid separate kingdoms.

Balon also confuses me when he chides Theon for not paying the Iron Price for his clothes. Up until very recently he was still Ned's ward. What did Balon expect him to do, break the law for a father he didn't expect to see, who didn't care for him at all? At best Theon could have taken the clothes off someone who died in one of Robb's battles, clothes that would most likely be torn, bloody rags that no one would want to wear.

The whole situation with the islands right now is a shame because Quellon seemed like he was making good progress in reforming their society before he died.

The religion of the Drowned God seems to be the biggest obstacle to reforming Ironborn society.

Before the conquest of the Riverlands, the Ironborn substained themselves with the New Way made of trade and better relations with the rest of Westeros and with Essos cities, brought by house Hoare.

More pragmatic and lucid than their predecessors the Hoares had discouraged reaving and instead strongly developped relations and commercial ties with the mainland, the Reach and the Westerlands in particular, and Qhorwyn the Cunning encouraged the Ironborn to become the boldest marchants and sailors in the world, going through routes where others didn't dare to go to sell merchandises in a record time, or to become mercenaries and privateers employed by the Free Cities in their endless wars against each other or in their struggles against pirates.

Ironically during Qhorwyn, and before his son and following descendants chose to conquer the Riverlands with the consequences that we know, the Iron Islands were possibly in their most prosperous and richest time. 

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Before the conquest of the Riverlands, the Ironborn substained themselves with the New Way made of trade and better relations with the rest of Westeros and with Essos cities, brought by house Hoare.

More pragmatic and lucid than their predecessors the Hoares had discouraged reaving and instead strongly developped relations and commercial ties with the mainland, the Reach and the Westerlands in particular, and Qhorwyn the Cunning encouraged the Ironborn to become the boldest marchants and sailors in the world, going through routes where others didn't dare to go to sell merchandises in a record time, or to become mercenaries and privateers employed by the Free Cities in their endless wars against each other or in their struggles against pirates.

Ironically during Qhorwyn, and before his son and following descendants chose to conquer the Riverlands with the consequences that we know, the Iron Islands were possibly in their most prosperous and richest time.

I think it's a real shame that idiots like Balon still get lots of support on the islands. Policies like his are why the Ironborn have a bad reputation and the islands are so poor.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think it's a real shame that idiots like Balon still get lots of support on the islands. Policies like his are why the Ironborn have a bad reputation and the islands are so poor.

It's in large part due to the Drowned Men, who keep spreading the same myths about the Drowned God and how Ironborn can only live by fighting, reaving, pillaging, raping and killing "greenlanders" and the tales about the glory days when Ironborn could reave in all impunity.

Though I guess that it's also because they drown the newborn right after birth, such a trauma most certainely caused lifelong brain damage to many Ironborn. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Though I guess that it's also because they drown the newborn right after birth, such a trauma most certainely caused lifelong brain damage to many Ironborn.

It gets worse because some people want to be drowned when they're adults too, sometimes multiple times.

[BalerionTheCat]

4 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Though I guess that it's also because they drown the newborn right after birth, such a trauma most certainely caused lifelong brain damage to many Ironborn. 

Maybe.

But my guess is, it has to do with the Seastone Chair.

The Seastone Chair is made of a block of oily black stone carved into the shape of a kraken.

Such oily black stone is found in different unwholesome places, like The Basilisk Islesn Yen and Asshai. Must do things to mind.

[Hugorfonics]

11 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

Ok so, the Ironborn scoff at the notion of buying items of value using their own money, right?

Not everything. Only jewelry 

11 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

How do they get their ships in which to go a-reavin’?  Do you suppose they wait for a shipwright to build a ship, and then kill the guy and take the ship?

That shipbuilder in acok seemed like he made a decent living and was somewhat respectable 

11 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

I don’t recall any mention of buying and selling in the iB chapters

There's an economy in place. Euron utilizes it to sell slaves, which is against traditions because it's people not economics 

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

How do they have enough people on their tiny islands to man a huge fleet?

I'm from a collection of small islands too, population is like 8.5m 

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why do people not leave the Iron Islands for other parts of Westeros (they are awful)?

Is it less awful in Harrenhal? There's an allure to being ironborn, definitely much more local independence then smallfolk in it's sister kingdoms. 

Starting with a fishing boat you can move to reaving and eventually someone who needs to be taken seriously. This is almost unreachable in the green lands.

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Balon also confuses me when he chides Theon for not paying the Iron Price for his clothes

It was unbelievably disrespectful to show up dressed like that. It goes against his entire culture 

[Craving Peaches]

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I'm from a collection of small islands too, population is like 8.5m 

You can't really compare modern populations to ones in Westeros. The whole continent is only meant to have ~40 million people on it, or so I've read.

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It was unbelievably disrespectful to show up dressed like that. It goes against his entire culture 

That's not what I'm disputing, I'm confused as to how Balon thought Theon would ever have the opportunity to pay the iron price in the first place. The options Theon had were wear clothes he took off someone on the battlefield that he killed, which likely would've been bloody scraps that fell to bits, or show up naked. Also Theon has been raised by Greenlanders for at least a decade growing up. The Iron Price may be part of Balon's culture but it's not really part of Theon's at that point. Balon should've expected this.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

You can't really compare modern populations to ones in Westeros. The whole continent is only meant to have ~40 million people on it, or so I've read.

That's not what I'm disputing, I'm confused as to how Balon thought Theon would ever have the opportunity to pay the iron price in the first place. The options Theon had were wear clothes he took off someone on the battlefield that he killed, which likely would've been bloody scraps that fell to bits, or show up naked. Also Theon has been raised by Greenlanders for at least a decade growing up. The Iron Price may be part of Balon's culture but it's not really part of Theon's at that point. Balon should've expected this.

And for all his talk Balon didn't pay the Iron Price either.

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And for all his talk Balon didn't pay the Iron Price either.

Certainly not because it looks like he barely even left his castle after his failed rebellion which also resulted in no more reaving in the Seven Kingdoms. So unless he was out raiding somewhere in Essos and we just didn't hear about it...

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

You can't really compare modern populations to ones in Westeros. The whole continent is only meant to have ~40 million people on it, or so I've read.

I seem to remember KL having 500k, so 39.5 for the rest sounds like a lot, but whatever.

Before the middle ages there were the Greek islands, who if not all out ruling the Mediterranean they were at least noticable enough to be accounted for.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's not what I'm disputing, I'm confused as to how Balon thought Theon would ever have the opportunity to pay the iron price in the first place. The options Theon had were wear clothes he took off someone on the battlefield that he killed, which likely would've been bloody scraps that fell to bits, or show up naked

It's not the clothing that makes him look like a whore, it's the jewelry. It's not like Theon showed up in fishnets. 

He coulda taken some things after WW but there wasnt much or he forgot or something, Theon had an explanation. He was also upset that when he saved Brans life it was from savages who tend to be lacking the bling bling department.

They came for Bran because of the jewelry. My man's was sparkling, that's how the rich do, they sparkle. Ironborn like to sparkle too, but they want a story attached to it. Being noble and rich isn't everything to Ironborn, which is why it's possible for some fishermen to look like a rapper and a lord to look like they did in HBO (got me so mad, birdshit on Balons coat. Like the dudes a king lol). Theons basically showing up with mad military badges on his chest when he's only fought one battle in a subordinate role 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also Theon has been raised by Greenlanders for at least a decade growing up. The Iron Price may be part of Balon's culture but it's not really part of Theon's at that point. Balon should've expected this.

He did. Which is why he wasn't keen on Theon returning and contesting Ashas claim. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

He did. Which is why he wasn't keen on Theon returning and contesting Ashas claim. 

Well if he expected it then why did he get so annoyed about it?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well if he expected it then why did he get so annoyed about it?

It's because Theon is a living reminder of his crushing defeat and failure to bring the Old Way back, not that he ever had a chance.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

It's because Theon is a living reminder of his crushing defeat and failure to bring the Old Way back, not that he ever had a chance.

That makes sense. But Balon must see that the Old Way has brought him nothing but misery. It cost him all his sons really. Why is he so keen to try again?

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well if he expected it then why did he get so annoyed about it?

Because he's a dick.

Westerosi parents aren't as supportive to their children in embracing who they are or want to be as the 21st cnt reader either.

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That makes sense. But Balon must see that the Old Way has brought him nothing but misery. It cost him all his sons really. Why is he so keen to try again?

His idea of honor I'd guess. Also the riches power and prestige that comes with conquest.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That makes sense. But Balon must see that the Old Way has brought him nothing but misery. It cost him all his sons really. Why is he so keen to try again?

Because he's a blind, delusionnal and narrow-minded fool. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Also the riches power and prestige that comes with conquest.

But conquest cost him wealth. He could get rich by trading. Other Ironborn have done it before him. It's not that prestigious because he lost.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because he's a dick.

Westerosi parents aren't as supportive to their children in embracing who they are or want to be as the 21st cnt reader either.

It's irrational. He knows Theon won't pay the Iron Price, he can't expect him to, but he still gets annoyed about it.

[Hugorfonics]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

But conquest cost him wealth. He could get rich by trading. Other Ironborn have done it before him.

Wealth isn't the priority though, he's a warlord not a merchant. Others have, for sure. But others have also not.

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's not that prestigious because he lost.

The second time? The one where he conquered like half the north?

Balon did very well for himself, it's why the ironborn loved him. If Balon wasn't murdered or Euron continued his war the north would look drastically different then it does in adwd.

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's irrational. He knows Theon won't pay the Iron Price, he can't expect him to, but he still gets annoyed about it.

He could have paid it, snagged something at WW. Or simply not wear fake tokens of honor when talking to your dad/king.