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The Gold Price of Iron


Reekazoid

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3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Wealth isn't the priority though, he's a warlord not a merchant. Others have, for sure. But others have also not.

The second time? The one where he conquered like half the north?

Balon did very well for himself, it's why the ironborn loved him. If Balon wasn't murdered or Euron continued his war the north would look drastically different then it does in adwd.

He could have paid it, snagged something at WW. Or simply not wear fake tokens of honor when talking to your dad/king.

Which half ? Lol.  

Moat Calin, Deepwood Motte and portions of the Stony Shore aren't even a seventh of the North.

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7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The second time? The one where he conquered like half the north?

Balon did very well for himself, it's why the ironborn loved him. If Balon wasn't murdered or Euron continued his war the north would look drastically different then it does in adwd.

Not really, first time he got wrecked in battle, second time he conquered part of a frozen wasteland with no booty then died by falling off a bridge.

The Ironborn can never hope to hold the North, not long term.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He could have paid it, snagged something at WW. Or simply not wear fake tokens of honor when talking to your dad/king.

The whole point is that Theon had virtually no opportunity to pay the Iron Price, furthermore Balon couldn't really have expected him to, he knew Theon was assimilated into greenlander culture and paying the Iron Price would require him to either break the law, take bloody rags off a dead soldier or turn up naked, none of which Theon would do because he was not really raised in Ironborn culture. So Balon getting angry at Theon seems irrational to me because he must have known or at least had a very good idea that his son would not pay the IP, so he expected it, so getting angry was illogical and the whole situation with Theon not paying it because he wasn't raised in the culture is Balon's fault in the first place.

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3 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Which half ? Lol.  

Moat Calin, Deepwood Motte and portions of the Stony Shore aren't even a seventh of the North.

Strategic pinpoints though.

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not really, first time he got wrecked in battle, second time he conquered part of a frozen wasteland with no booty then died by falling off a bridge.

Frozen wasteland? 

I understand the fandoms belittlement of Balon, even if I don't agree. But I never got how the North's useless, it is not a frozen wasteland. Not even close, it's a huge area that's bound to be luscious with forests that's can be used for carpentry and then the land for farming, it's got coastal towns to fish at or random animal wildlife outside the towns to hunt at. Only thing, you need a sweater. 

Frozen wasteland is like past the north, and way past like a half a (or a seventh) North plus to reach that. 

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The whole point is that Theon had virtually no opportunity to pay the Iron Price

He did at WW (if he had any kills). And with the wildlings, if they had any jewelry.

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

furthermore Balon couldn't really have expected him to, he knew Theon was assimilated into greenlander culture and paying the Iron Price would require him to either break the law, take bloody rags off a dead soldier or turn up naked,

Not clothes, jewelry. Diamonds, rubies, gold. Rings, bracelets, necklaces, etc. Not clothing.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Theon not paying it because he wasn't raised in the culture is Balon's fault in the first place.

Theon was raised in his culture and knew immediately he fucked up.

It's Neds fault, he's the one guarding the exit door from a 10 year old with Ice, but Balon definitely played a part

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5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Frozen wasteland? 

I understand the fandoms belittlement of Balon, even if I don't agree. But I never got how the North's useless, it is not a frozen wasteland. Not even close, it's a huge area that's bound to be luscious with forests that's can be used for carpentry and then the land for farming, it's got coastal towns to fish at or random animal wildlife outside the towns to hunt at. Only thing, you need a sweater. 

Frozen wasteland is like past the north, and way past like a half a (or a seventh) North plus to reach that.

Frozen wasteland is an exaggeration but most or all of the useful stuff in the North is either located inland, which the Ironborn struggle with, or not in the area Balon took. Bear Island would've been a good addition with its forests but the 'Stoney Shore' doesn't sound like it has many resources the Ironborn can use, it sounds bleak and barren, like the Iron Islands. And the point is that the Ironborn can't hold the North long term, especially not when winter sets in.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's Neds fault, he's the one guarding the exit door from a 10 year old with Ice, but Balon definitely played a part

It's Balon's fault because his failed rebellion is the reason Theon is a hostage in Winterfell and so wasn't raised in Ironborn culture in the first place.

Unless Theon killed a member of the Nobility, which he probably didn't otherwise we would hear about it in his POV, he probably would have been unable to take any expensive trinkets, the average peasant levy isn't going to have gold necklaces or anything like what he wants.

 

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12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Frozen wasteland is an exaggeration but most or all of the useful stuff in the North is either located inland, which the Ironborn struggle with, or not in the area Balon took. Bear Island would've been a good addition with its forests but the 'Stoney Shore' doesn't sound like it has many resources the Ironborn can use, it sounds bleak and barren, like the Iron Islands.

Iron Islands are rich in, iron. Stoney stuff is good. It's all good though, I'm sure Stoney Shore got farmland to sustain it or it wouldn't be a thing.

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

And the point is that the Ironborn can't hold the North long term, especially not when winter sets in.

Why not? What happens in the winter, white walkers?

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's Balon's fault because his failed rebellion is the reason Theon is a hostage in Winterfell and so wasn't raised in Ironborn culture in the first place.

It's Eddards fault because he forcefully took a child from his parents.

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Unless Theon killed a member of the Nobility, which he probably didn't otherwise we would hear about it in his POV, he probably would have been unable to take any expensive trinkets, the average peasant levy isn't going to have gold necklaces or anything like what he wants.

Probably. He doesn't have to kill him, I think making nobleman yield allow them to get looted too. It'd look strange though, robbing prisoners for a stone that isnt actually worth much in a room of billionaires.

He was basically lying by wearing jewelry, it's a stupid mistake.

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Balon was retarded anyway, and completely blind to the inherent flaws and limits of the Ironborn such as their limited numbers, warfare too focused ol reaving with their lack of discipline and everything that's not infantry or ships, and logistics. 

Until a radical change in the Ironborn society and military in the future, Ironborn won't be able to hope any conquest that they can hold. 

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43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why not? What happens in the winter, white walkers?

Severe attrition, especially if they are inland so can't supply themselves by sea.

44 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's Eddards fault because he forcefully took a child from his parents.

The blame ultimately lies with Balon because it's his fault that Ned took Theon as a ward in the first place. If he doesn't rebel, Theon is not a ward and can stay on the Iron Islands.

45 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stoney stuff is good. It's all good though, I'm sure Stoney Shore got farmland to sustain it or it wouldn't be a thing.

It mostly likely sustains itself by fishing, like the Islands do. The name 'Stoney Shore' really does not suggest it has much in the way of farmland at all.

47 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He was basically lying by wearing jewelry, it's a stupid mistake.

It was but Balon really should not have expected any different so it was stupid for him to get so annoyed. The situation was of Balon's making.

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Severe attrition,

From whom? The northern resistance was crushed until Balon died.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

especially if they are inland so can't supply themselves by sea.

Land feeds itself, that's what smallfolk do

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

The blame ultimately lies with Balon because it's his fault that Ned took Theon as a ward in the first place. If he doesn't rebel, Theon is not a ward and can stay on the Iron Islands.

Nobody forced Ned to abduct a child 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

It mostly likely sustains itself by fishing, like the Islands do. The name 'Stoney Shore' really does not suggest it has much in the way of farmland at all.

Yea, maybe. Whatever it is it's sustainable.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

It was but Balon really should not have expected any different so it was stupid for him to get so annoyed. The situation was of Balon's making.

I think he was more disappointed then mad. Balons a mean guy though, no doubt about it. 

But Theon did disrespect their culture in their first encounter 

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6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

From whom? The northern resistance was crushed until Balon died.

From the weather and resulting lack of food, like we see with Stannis' army.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Land feeds itself, that's what smallfolk do

Not in winter.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nobody forced Ned to abduct a child 

That isn't how it worked. Balon rebelled, most likely knew the risks, failed and as part of the peace treaty had to send Theon to Ned to be a ward. Ned did not abduct a child. It is Balon's fault that Theon is a ward, the whole situation wouldn't've happened had Balon not rebelled. 

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28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

From the weather and resulting lack of food, like we see with Stannis' army.

Stannis is in the field, Ironborn are in castles.

29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not in winter.

The granaries and stuff then, like however the previous landlords got by will be how the Ironborn will.

30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That isn't how it worked. Balon rebelled, most likely knew the risks, failed and as part of the peace treaty had to send Theon to Ned to be a ward. Ned did not abduct a child. It is Balon's fault that Theon is a ward, the whole situation wouldn't've happened had Balon not rebelled. 

The whole situation would have never happened if Balons mother didn't fuck his father either. The final act was Ned taking the kid. Like Lady, it's obviously on him

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21 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

Ok so, the Ironborn scoff at the notion of buying items of value using their own money, right?

 How do they get their ships in which to go a-reavin’?  Do you suppose they wait for a shipwright to build a ship, and then kill the guy and take the ship?

Or maybe everyone is expected to build their own ship? 
 

Maybe ships are all built by thralls, and then the IB take the ship from the thralls.  This way the ships  technically cost nothing because thralls don’t have property rights.. and they don’t have to kill skilled shipwrights. 
 

I’m being slightly facetious but I’m just wondering how the economy of the Iron Islands works.  I don’t recall any mention of buying and selling in the iB chapters.  

I get the impression it is displays of wealth that are looked down upon when acquired by paying the gold price.

Shipwrights must be a fairly noble profession amongst the Ironborn, so participating in that economy is probably okay. Although with a ship being expensive, those wealthy enough to buy them should have acquired his wealth via reaving.

Am I making sense?

Like, I would imagine it’s considered respectable to have a lot of gold and even buy stuff if you are known to have made your fortune pillaging and pirating.

I know you admitted to being facetious, so I’m not trying to lecture you on the obvious. I just don’t think the notion of the “Iron Price” is part of the economy. I think it’s more about earning your spurs (or sails?… lame joke) through a lifetime of plundering. 

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8 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Balon was retarded anyway, and completely blind to the inherent flaws and limits of the Ironborn such as their limited numbers, warfare too focused ol reaving with their lack of discipline and everything that's not infantry or ships, and logistics. 

Until a radical change in the Ironborn society and military in the future, Ironborn won't be able to hope any conquest that they can hold. 

And not even regular infantry, basically just skirmishers.

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3 hours ago, The Mourning Knight said:

I get the impression it is displays of wealth that are looked down upon when acquired by paying the gold price.

Shipwrights must be a fairly noble profession amongst the Ironborn, so participating in that economy is probably okay. Although with a ship being expensive, those wealthy enough to buy them should have acquired his wealth via reaving.

Am I making sense?

Like, I would imagine it’s considered respectable to have a lot of gold and even buy stuff if you are known to have made your fortune pillaging and pirating.

I know you admitted to being facetious, so I’m not trying to lecture you on the obvious. I just don’t think the notion of the “Iron Price” is part of the economy. I think it’s more about earning your spurs (or sails?… lame joke) through a lifetime of plundering. 

Yes sir you are making sense. I agree actually.  And something @Hugorfonics said too sort of made it click for me.  The trinkets etc. that an IB reaver would wear would be considered 'tokens of honor'. 

However I wonder if it truly means only jewelry (or something you wear about your person), or if it also encompasses other luxury items, objets d'art, and such.  Like if a reaver captain wants an overstuffed velvet chair and tufted footstool for his cabin, does he have to kill some fat greenlander merchant and take it from his seaside villa, or can he just buy it off the street in Lannisport and not be ashamed.

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17 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Maybe.

But my guess is, it has to do with the Seastone Chair.

The Seastone Chair is made of a block of oily black stone carved into the shape of a kraken.

Such oily black stone is found in different unwholesome places, like The Basilisk Islesn Yen and Asshai. Must do things to mind.

Oh snap! That is a *really* good point. 

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12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not everything. Only jewelry 

That shipbuilder in acok seemed like he made a decent living and was somewhat respectable 

There's an economy in place. Euron utilizes it to sell slaves, which is against traditions because it's people not economics 

I'm from a collection of small islands too, population is like 8.5m 

Is it less awful in Harrenhal? There's an allure to being ironborn, definitely much more local independence then smallfolk in it's sister kingdoms. 

Starting with a fishing boat you can move to reaving and eventually someone who needs to be taken seriously. This is almost unreachable in the green lands.

It was unbelievably disrespectful to show up dressed like that. It goes against his entire culture 

I agree with everything you said except one thing.  I do think that Harrenhall would be less awful.  You can at least walk or ride out of the gates and get away from it for a time.  I mean you can get in a ship too and get away from the islands by sea, I suppose, but you're still out in the cold gray miserable ocean. 

 

As far as Theon's disrespect of his culture, he was not taught his culture.  No disrespect intended towards his father - the opposite in fact.  Balon isn't the worst Greyjoy imho, but he is still kind of an a-hole.  I mean I think we have established that Balon romanticizes and idealizes the Old Ways, which is great and all, but we have also established that a great deal of his power and station are maintained by the new ways, and even though he seems angry about it, it's a fact.  

I believe him to be a little hypocritical when choosing which parts of the old ways to uphold and which parts of the new ways to take advantage of.  A better man would have understood the challenges facing Theon, adjusted his expectations, and welcomed his son home with the intent to bring him back into the fold.   Balon fancies himself a cold blooded student of the Game, but he is actually pretty emotional and bitter.

He still mad about The Ned taking his boy, even though his boy is back and The Ned is Ded.

 

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10 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

 

However I wonder if it truly means only jewelry (or something you wear about your person), or if it also encompasses other luxury items, objets d'art, and such.  Like if a reaver captain wants an overstuffed velvet chair and tufted footstool for his cabin, does he have to kill some fat greenlander merchant and take it from his seaside villa, or can he just buy it off the street in Lannisport and not be ashamed.

I think it could be anything. But if an IB has established his or herself as a proper reaver, I don’t think anyone is keeping track of what they have bought or what they have stolen.

I think there is an element of luxury and softness taken into account as well. Like, I doubt anyone is wondering about how an IB came about the turnips on his table. The fur lined cloak on the other hand…

I think a good analogy would be our concept of a “self made man.” This person has built their success from the ground up. Undoubtedly they would probably possess some birthday presents or Christmas gifts though. But you wouldn’t hold it against them, because the overall pattern in their life has been self accomplishments. 

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8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis is in the field, Ironborn are in castles.

You just said that they would be living off the land, to which I responded that it wouldn't be possible in Winter. Now if they are living in castles they have until the granary runs out, likely as the harvest was stunted and they are extra mouths to feed, or until a hostile army removes them from the castle. Once the granary is out, if the castle is not by the sea they have no way to resupply it so will starve most likely.

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The whole situation would have never happened if Balons mother didn't fuck his father either. The final act was Ned taking the kid. Like Lady, it's obviously on him

Ned did not take Theon, Theon was sent to be his ward as part of the peace treaty after Balon's failed rebellion. If for some reason Ned refused to take Theon as a ward, Theon would just be sent somewhere else to another royalist, so either way Theon ends up outside Ironborn culture as a result of Balon's actions.

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2 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

And not even regular infantry, basically just skirmishers.

Who would get fucked up against any big cavalry charge and any disciplined infantry.  

The true reason why the northmen haven't been able of pushing the Ironborn back is because of the Boltons' betrayal and in particular of Ramsay's deceptions, murder of "Bran and Rickon" and burning of Winterfell, that decapitated the northern resistance and caused all lords to be acting only on his/her own until Roose came back.

And it's honnestly pure plot armor and PIS that someone didn't tell Rodrik about Ramsay's true identity and had him executed, that Ramsay was able of going back to the Dreadfort and come back in time to Winterfell with reinforcements to kill Ser Rodrik and his men before sacking Winterfell.

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4 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

However I wonder if it truly means only jewelry (or something you wear about your person), or if it also encompasses other luxury items, objets d'art, and such.  Like if a reaver captain wants an overstuffed velvet chair and tufted footstool for his cabin, does he have to kill some fat greenlander merchant and take it from his seaside villa, or can he just buy it off the street in Lannisport and not be ashamed.

I don't think so, only jewelrys mentioned. I suppose there's nothing stopping the captain from killing and taking but I think hes allowed to safely buy velvet, be comfortable and not get ostracized. Now if the chair has some bling to it?...

What does the driftwood crown look like? Is it, just wet sticks? No bling?

4 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

I agree with everything you said except one thing.  I do think that Harrenhall would be less awful.  You can at least walk or ride out of the gates and get away from it for a time.  

So I chose Harrenhal specifically because Arya was only able to walk out the gate through bribery and murder.

4 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

As far as Theon's disrespect of his culture, he was not taught his culture.  No disrespect intended towards his father - the opposite in fact.  Balon isn't the worst Greyjoy imho, but he is still kind of an a-hole.  I mean I think we have established that Balon romanticizes and idealizes the Old Ways, which is great and all, but we have also established that a great deal of his power and station are maintained by the new ways, and even though he seems angry about it, it's a fact.  

I believe him to be a little hypocritical when choosing which parts of the old ways to uphold and which parts of the new ways to take advantage of.  A better man would have understood the challenges facing Theon, adjusted his expectations, and welcomed his son home with the intent to bring him back into the fold.   Balon fancies himself a cold blooded student of the Game, but he is actually pretty emotional and bitter.

He still mad about The Ned taking his boy, even though his boy is back and The Ned is Ded.

Word. Dudes a straight dick. I thought he made a pretty good Ironborn king though, more then I think his children could be. (though not as much as his brothers)

 

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

You just said that they would be living off the land, to which I responded that it wouldn't be possible in Winter. Now if they are living in castles they have until the granary runs out, likely as the harvest was stunted and they are extra mouths to feed, or until a hostile army removes them from the castle. Once the granary is out, if the castle is not by the sea they have no way to resupply it so will starve most likely.

Hostile armies can't reach them, especially if the elements are a thing.

Logistics confuses me, but however the old boss did the new boss will now do.

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Ned did not take Theon, Theon was sent to be his ward as part of the peace treaty after Balon's failed rebellion. If for some reason Ned refused to take Theon as a ward, Theon would just be sent somewhere else to another royalist, so either way Theon ends up outside Ironborn culture as a result of Balon's actions.

If Ned refused then it would have been someone else's fault but he didn't so it is.

Balon definitely has a large share of blame too, so does Robert. Neither abducted and imprisoned though.

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Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Hostile armies can't reach them, especially if the elements are a thing.

The Northern armies, who have experience travelling in the Northern weather, can.

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Logistics confuses me, but however the old boss did the new boss will now do.

It is confusing sometimes but the main thing is that Ironborn characters outright say they can't hold the North. Asha tells Theon it's silly to try and hold a castle when they can't supply it by sea. The Ironborn, despite taking Moat Cailin, don't do a good job holding it for long, when the Boltons come they surrender immediately. The granaries in the castles won't last forever, even assuming the Ironborn ration them. They are not farmers, not that they can even plant new crop and harvest it in time, they are not used to the climate and weather of the North, even the Mountain clans struggle with food in the winter, and they are some of the best at surviving in it.

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If Ned refused then it would have been someone else's fault but he didn't so it is.

Balon put Theon in the position where he would have been a ward for Ned or anyone else in the first place. Balon didn't have to rebel, he chose to and payed the price.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Neither abducted and imprisoned though.

No one did that because that's not how being a Ward works. Abduct is like kidnapping someone, Theon was not kidnapped, he was sent to Winterfell as a hostage after Balon lost the war. It was legal. You could argue he was imprisoned in WF, though to me it seems he had quite a lot of freedom, but I really can't see how Ned abducted Theon.

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