The Gold Price of Iron

[Hugorfonics]

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Northern armies, who have experience travelling in the Northern weather, can.

Mountain clans? They're an auxillary force not tough enough to win by themselves. Robbs army was in the south

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It is confusing sometimes but the main thing is that Ironborn characters outright say they can't hold the North.

No they dont

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Asha tells Theon it's silly to try and hold a castle when they can't supply it by sea.

Word, Winterfell is far

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Ironborn, despite taking Moat Cailin, don't do a good job holding it for long, when the Boltons come they surrender immediately

After Balon died, after Victarion left with all of his best men, after Euron stopped caring about his brothers war

20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The granaries in the castles won't last forever, even assuming the Ironborn ration them. They are not farmers, not that they can even plant new crop and harvest it in time, they are not used to the climate and weather of the North, even the Mountain clans struggle with food in the winter, and they are some of the best at surviving in it.

However the world used to spin will continue. Ironborn can be farmers, why not? And the lands not that different, plus the smallfolk will do all the work anyway 

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Balon put Theon in the position where he would have been a ward for Ned or anyone else in the first place. Balon didn't have to rebel, he chose to and payed the price.

He's partly to blame, sure

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It was legal

So was Gregor smashing Oberyns face off, doesn't make it any less disgusting 

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Mountain clans? They're an auxillary force not tough enough to win by themselves. Robbs army was in the south

Not just them, other Northern armies would obviously also have more experience with the weather. The Ironborn are either driven out of what castles they have or starve when the food supply runs out. They can't hold the castles inland.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No they dont

From Asha:

Quote

"When longships learn to row through trees, perhaps. A fisherman may hook a grey leviathan, but it will drag him down to death unless he cuts it loose. The north is too large for us to hold, and too full of northmen."

Quote

"Crow's Eye," Asha called, "did you leave your wits at Asshai? If we cannot hold the north—and we cannot—how can we win the whole of the Seven Kingdoms?"

 

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

However the world used to spin will continue. Ironborn can be farmers, why not? And the lands not that different, plus the smallfolk will do all the work anyway 

House Greyjoy's words are 'We Do Not Sow', the Ironborn take pride in their lack of farming skills. The smallfolk can't do much work either because their is no time for a new harvest. If the land's not that different then that means even more issues because it wouldn't be very fertile. And all this doesn't even matter because their is no time to reap and sow a new harvest before winter comes.

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So was Gregor smashing Oberyns face off, doesn't make it any less disgusting 

I don't get what you're trying to say here.

 

[Hugorfonics]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not just them, other Northern armies would obviously also have more experience with the weather. The Ironborn are either driven out of what castles they have or starve when the food supply runs out. They can't hold the castles inland

How would the Ironborn be driven out of castles? And there is no northern army after RW, especially when Vic conquered MC

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

From Asha:

Word, but just her. No one else supported her view. Also I kinda think she was being political and took the peace platform because in democracies you have to be the opposite of the opposition 

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

House Greyjoy's words are 'We Do Not Sow', the Ironborn take pride in their lack of farming skills

Greyjoy are high lords and now kings. Of course they don't sow. Neither do Lannisters Starks or Targaryens.

The smallfolk must farm or the islands wouldn't have any people on it

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The smallfolk can't do much work either because their is no time for a new harvest. If the land's not that different then that means even more issues because it wouldn't be very fertile. And all this doesn't even matter because their is no time to reap and sow a new harvest before winter comes.

But whoever you think is an alternative replacement would face the same situation.

Im sure there's enough food, it's not Darry.

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't get what you're trying to say here.

In the barbarity that we know as seven kingdoms, being legal or illegal isn't necessarily the same as being moral or immoral 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

23 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Maybe.

But my guess is, it has to do with the Seastone Chair.

The Seastone Chair is made of a block of oily black stone carved into the shape of a kraken.

Such oily black stone is found in different unwholesome places, like The Basilisk Islesn Yen and Asshai. Must do things to mind.

I don't think it's necessary, when you see how stupid many of the Greyjoys and Ironborn are even without ever coming close to that stone.

 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

How would the Ironborn be driven out of castles? And there is no northern army after RW, especially when Vic conquered MC

The way we see them being driven out of castles in the books.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word, but just her. No one else supported her view. Also I kinda think she was being political and took the peace platform because in democracies you have to be the opposite of the opposition 

Well presumably everyone who supported her claim, Rodrick the Reader and the like, agreed with what she said. We have her POV and to me it shows she says those things because she believes them and thinks they are the best option, not just because she's doing the opposite of whatever Euron says.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Greyjoy are high lords and now kings. Of course they don't sow. Neither do Lannisters Starks or Targaryens.

The smallfolk must farm or the islands wouldn't have any people on it

The Ironborn as a a whole seem to be mostly against farming. Their smallfolk (freeborn Ironborn smallfolk) don't farm. The population of the islands is sustained by fishing and trading in some cases. Some thralls work on the fields according to the wiki, because the Ironborn see it as a task for 'lesser men'.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

In the barbarity that we know as seven kingdoms, being legal or illegal isn't necessarily the same as being moral or immoral

Yes, but I am confused as to why you are bringing this up, my point about Ned and Theon has nothing to do with morals, I just did not agree that Ned abducted Theon.

 

[Hugorfonics]

53 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The way we see them being driven out of castles in the books.

After Balon died and Euron ascended, Eurons was is not Balons.

Quote

If my father still lived, Moat Cailin would never have fallen. Balon Greyjoy had known that the Moat was the key to holding the north. Euron knew that as well; he simply did not care. No more than he cared what happened to Deepwood Motte or Torrhen's Square. "Euron has no interest in Balon's conquests. My nuncle's off chasing dragons."

 

56 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well presumably everyone who supported her claim, Rodrick the Reader and the like, agreed with what she said.

Iirc Rodrik didn't publicly back her, or anybody. Only people who agreed with her I think were her friends like Qarl and Tristifer.

57 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

We have her POV and to me it shows she says those things because she believes them and thinks they are the best option, not just because she's doing the opposite of whatever Euron says.

Yea maybe, she's all over the place.

59 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Ironborn as a a whole seem to be mostly against farming. Their smallfolk (freeborn Ironborn smallfolk) don't farm. The population of the islands is sustained by fishing and trading in some cases. Some thralls work on the fields according to the wiki, because the Ironborn see it as a task for 'lesser men'.

I guess that makes sense? I mean not much... I don't take much stock into to wiki or the maester books their allegedly based on. Anyway, maesters don't often do well in the islands and are bound to be biased and fraudulent like they usually are.

It's probably more fun to raid then farm, fishing sounds kinda boring too though. But the entire populace being soldiers doesn't make sense in any functioning society. Like Sparta I guess got a way with it for a few centuries and had the Helots farm while they pirated, but even as dismal as the life of a Thrall is, they're a far cry from the Helots.

It's confusing though for sure, because the idea of smallfolk I guess isn't as much of a thing on the islands because of the existence of thralls. (But like, can anyone get one? Qarl, Rodrik? They don't seem the raiding type.)

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but I am confused as to why you are bringing this up

You seemed to say it's legal as a justification for the abduction, or internship, whatever you want to call it. But I don't think that's the best reasoning in the savage Sunset kingdoms 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

just did not agree that Ned abducted Theon.

Fair enough, I just call what I see

[BalerionTheCat]

4 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I don't think it's necessary, when you see how stupid many of the Greyjoys and Ironborn are even without ever coming close to that stone.

I suppose the worsts are mainly the captains and those close to the power. Anyway, violence is the only way of recognition in this society. And one can only exist thru violence. But I also agree that prolonged lack of oxygen is not good for cognitive capacity.

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Iirc Rodrik didn't publicly back her, or anybody. Only people who agreed with her I think were her friends like Qarl and Tristifer.

He backs her in the most public way possible, he shouts her name at the Kingsmoot. He also sends out Raven's telling people to support her.

Quote

"VICTORY!" shouted Rodrik the Reader, his hands cupped about his mouth. "Victory, and Asha!"

Quote

"The Princess Asha. She has set her sails for home. The Reader sends out ravens, summoning all her friends to Harlaw. He says that Balon meant for her to sit the Seastone Chair."

 

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

You seemed to say it's legal as a justification for the abduction, or internship, whatever you want to call it. But I don't think that's the best reasoning in the savage Sunset kingdoms 

I wasn't trying to justify it I just don't think it can be classified as abduction.

[sifth]

The Iron Price just doesn't make any sense. I have no idea how the Ironborn can maintain any form of economy, when the only way to make money is to take it off the person you killed. I also find it interesting that slavery is outlawed in the Westeros, yet thralls are apparently allowed in the Iron Islands, even though they're basically the same thing, with only a few very minor differences. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

The Iron Price just doesn't make any sense. I have no idea how the Ironborn can maintain any form of economy, when the only way to make money is to take it off the person you killed. I also find it interesting that slavery is outlawed in the Westeros, yet thralls are apparently allowed in the Iron Islands, even though they're basically the same thing, with only a few very minor differences. 

Ironborn traditionnalists like Balon and Aeron are just that hypocrital and delluded.  

The truth is that most of the money Ironborn earn come from trading with the mainland and Essos, using the iron and other materials thralls mine, fishing, and that all the money Balon gain is from the taxes the Ironborn pay to their lord. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Another irony is that most Ironborn certainely aren't reavers, they have to keep the economy and functional life on the islands alive after all, with them being either fishermen, thralls or merchants, and that these people never see the benefits of the reaving, when they aren't the victims of it either due to them having been taken as captives by the raiders before being taken to the islands or of them suffering the vengeance of the mainlanders.

[Craving Peaches]

I'm not sure who is more stupid, the Ironborn or the Dothraki. I mean the Ironborn encourage causing brain damage to everyone and cling to their ridiculous and dysfunctional traditions after having them proven ineffective time and time again, but the Dothraki as a whole can't even build a house. I don't get how any of them would actually exist as real, functioning cultures/societies for any length of time. They can only sustain themselves by parasitising others. I don't get it.

It must be that most Ironborn simply don't pay the Iron Price or follow the Old Way anymore, as Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said, but that doesn't explain how the Dothraki exist and function.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure who is more stupid, the Ironborn or the Dothraki. I mean the Ironborn encourage causing brain damage to everyone and cling to their ridiculous and dysfunctional traditions after having them proven ineffective time and time again, but the Dothraki as a whole can't even build a house. I don't get how any of them would actually exist as real, functioning cultures/societies for any length of time. They can only sustain themselves by parasitising others. I don't get it.

It must be that most Ironborn simply don't pay the Iron Price or follow the Old Way anymore, as Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said, but that doesn't explain how the Dothraki exist and function.

There are markets in Vaes Dothrak if my memory is correct. 

Also Dothraki do sell slaves, with them being one if not the biggest slave provider for Slaver's Bay. And unlike the Ironborn they have the luck of still having neighbors that are too weak to defend themselves and that they can raid or who give a tribute to them in exchange of not being attacked.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

There are markets in Vaes Dothrak if my memory is correct. 

Also Dothraki do sell slaves, with them being one if not the biggest slave provider for Slaver's Bay. And unlike the Ironborn they have the luck of still having neighbors that are too weak to defend themselves and that they can raid or who give a tribute to them in exchange of not being attacked.

It just seems to me that everything the Dothraki have, they take from others, they can't create for themselves.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

He backs her in the most public way possible, he shouts her name at the Kingsmoot. He also sends out Raven's telling people to support her.

 

I wasn't trying to justify it I just don't think it can be classified as abduction.

Ah nice! Ty.

You also don't think it's Neds fault, got it. 

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure who is more stupid, the Ironborn or the Dothraki. I mean the Ironborn encourage causing brain damage to everyone and cling to their ridiculous and dysfunctional traditions after having them proven ineffective time and time again, but the Dothraki as a whole can't even build a house. I don't get how any of them would actually exist as real, functioning cultures/societies for any length of time. They can only sustain themselves by parasitising others. I don't get it.

I'd say Dothraki. While Westerosi are undoubtedly stupid Essosi are just cruel. As Dothraki are as cruel as their neighbors they're also only a few slight step above hunter gatherers so I guess I'd go with them. (wildlings gotta be the dumbest though. Steal southern girls just to take em back to the cold?)

Ironborn specifically aren't that dumb though, the whole continents inbreds murdering and robbing each other over their local idea of honor. They all live in ruins that are so elaborate they decided giants and magic must have built them. If anything the fact that they don't joust puts them a few notches up, although axe tossing isn't the most intellectual sport either 

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If anything the fact that they don't joust puts them a few notches up, although axe tossing isn't the most intellectual sport either 

The finger dance makes me laugh because they're risking chopping off part of their hand every time for none to little material gain, at least with the jousting there is a reward to aim for. And of course sometimes infection sets in and then they don't know what to do... Maybe just don't risk maiming yourself in the first place? I know they probably think it's cool and all but I just think it's so stupid. Though I do think Victarion fighting in heavy armour despite the risk of drowning was quite cool, his armour had a good design.

I don't think they're stupid just because they're violent, it's more the fact that they keep trying to bring back the Old Way even though prior attempts have ended really badly for them, can they not spot the pattern? Sooner or later they could try and fail against someone like Tywin and then the Islands would be purged.

[Hugorfonics]

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The finger dance makes me laugh because they're risking chopping off part of their hand every time for none to little material gain, at least with the jousting there is a reward to aim for. And of course sometimes infection sets in and then they don't know what to do... Maybe just don't risk maiming yourself in the first place? I know they probably think it's cool and all but I just think it's so stupid

I used to play that game where you spread your fingers on a table and stab quickly in between lol, stupid kid. But I was never like Red Dead Redemption with it. I guess life was different when death was around so many corners like it was in middle ages or cowboy times. (What could be the life expectancy for Westerosi? Most women it seems like first pregnancy)

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think they're stupid just because they're violent, it's more the fact that they keep trying to bring back the Old Way even though prior attempts have ended really badly for them, can they not spot the pattern? Sooner or later they could try and fail against someone like Tywin and then the Islands would be purged

I don't think that's even possible, just mad ramblings by Cersei. Like, you need zyklon b for that. 

Anyway, the Ironborn have a rich history to aspire too, their kingdom was drastically diminished since the dragon. I dont remember any other Ironborn king trying to bring back the old way like Balon and Aeron keep babbling on about though.

Greatjon however, although never using the phrase listed basically all the obvious reasons why the old way is the only acceptable option. The Dornish populace is also very anti central government, and it's leaders are secretly too.

They all cling for the old way because their all Westerosi, they just have different ways of talking and and get offended over different trivial things. But in all 9 of the 7 kingdoms it's warlords social distancing themselves from their constitutions while contemplating how Brandon the Builder designed his bedroom 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't think that's even possible, just mad ramblings by Cersei. Like, you need zyklon b for that. 

Maybe it's possible with dragons?

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Anyway, the Ironborn have a rich history to aspire too, their kingdom was drastically diminished since the dragon. I dont remember any other Ironborn king trying to bring back the old way like Balon and Aeron keep babbling on about though

That's true, but it's also true of all the other kingdoms but they don't have a series of failed suicidal independence rebellions behind them. Stormlands and North rebelled for independence once, but I think the Ironborn have done it multiple times.

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

their constitutions

I don't think they even have any. No one really cares about the law.

[Hugorfonics]

17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Maybe it's possible with dragons?

Probably not. Genocide requires consistently thorough, time consuming work with a highly functioning bureaucracy behind it. Even the Nazis failed, thank God lol. I'ma be honest, this conversations pretty upsetting. 

Anyway, no. Hiding from the big animal in the sky isn't that hard. They're not rabbits. And Ironborn look like everyone else anyway. I mean the kids of thralls are Ironborn so the culture is already diverse and probably spread outside the islands anyway.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's true, but it's also true of all the other kingdoms but they don't have a series of failed suicidal independence rebellions behind them. Stormlands and North rebelled for independence once, but I think the Ironborn have done it multiple times.

I don't really remember tbh. I don't think Dalton was king but I only remember him because they said he had red hair so I always pictured Andy Dalton and that stuck with me.

I only remember Stark going south around Andy Dalton times anyway, right? Idk, it'll be on HBO soon anyway, if these damn kids grow up already 

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think they even have any. No one really cares about the law.

Westerosi in general? That's actually another good point on how interwoven in Westerosi culture the Ironborn are. The NW is filled with them. Big names like when Aegon the dragon landed the Ironborn kings brother was LC, now there is Pyke who had and has a very realistic shot of becoming LC as well. This shows that Ironborn resonate Westerosi culture enough to defend the north from grumkins and snarks, and that they are indeed capable of breaking a law and being punished

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Probably not. Genocide requires consistently thorough, time consuming work with a highly functioning bureaucracy behind it. Even the Nazis failed, thank God lol. I'ma be honest, this conversations pretty upsetting. 

I'm sorry if I upset you, I wasn't trying to imply genocide, more like Tywin's raiding and burning of the Riverlands or Aegon's attack on Dorne, is a risk that the Ironborn would face if they kept on rebelling without considering the consequences. Their noble houses being destroyed etc.

The Ironborn themselves punished people quite brutally, at least historically, so I would think they should consider what would happen if their rebellions failed more...or maybe they think the Greenlanders are soft.

I don't really know how many times the Ironborn rebelled, I just got the feeling that some of them were blind to how the Old Way wasn't working anymore despite the evidence of it not working being their failed rebellion(s) and what happened at Harrenal.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

that they are indeed capable of breaking a law and being punished

I agree, I was referring specifically to your earlier point about lords not heeding their own constitutions, I think quite a lot of the nobility don't care about the law that much if it doesn't benefit them. Of course they won't openly break the law but when it's convenient to do so and they can get away with it...