The Gold Price of Iron

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm sorry if I upset you, I wasn't trying to imply genocide, more like Tywin's raiding and burning of the Riverlands or Aegon's attack on Dorne, is a risk that the Ironborn would face if they kept on rebelling without considering the consequences. Their noble houses being destroyed etc

Nah its not you, sometimes conversations are upsetting lol. (I'm confused by your allegorias because Tywins attacks on the Riverlands brought about the people's resistance of BWB and Aegon famously failed to submit Dorne) 

So to stay with the nazis, cuz why not, it's hard to destroy a religion. I mean the relationship between humans and their god is literally beyond this world, so I don't see the drowned god going anywhere anytime soon.

The culture of thralldom and stuff, rock wives and what not, isn't going to be easy to extinguish.  

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Ironborn themselves punished people quite brutally, at least historically, so I would think they should consider what would happen if their rebellions failed more...or maybe they think the Greenlanders are soft.

We've had this conversation not to long ago, but Westerosi are by and large an equally brutal bunch I'd say. I mean, asoiaf is probably the most fucked up thing I've ever read and Ironborn don't even make top 5.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't really know how many times the Ironborn rebelled, I just got the feeling that some of them were blind to how the Old Way wasn't working anymore despite the evidence of it not working being their failed rebellion(s) and what happened at Harrenal.

I think the old ways back, maybe lol. I don't think KL can function like it used to though, Aerys proved it. Robert was a temporary band aid (which Balon saw, surprisingly Viserys also saw this and wanted the GC to invade Westeros but Dameons men laughed) but the wounds opened all the way now. Aegon the dragon conquered Westeros because he was the dragon, that's not a thing anymore. Maybe. It might be again.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree, I was referring specifically to your earlier point about lords not heeding their own constitutions, I think quite a lot of the nobility don't care about the law that much if it doesn't benefit them. Of course they won't openly break the law but when it's convenient to do so and they can get away with it...

Oh lords love breaking laws. Especially Lannister lol. But yea I'm sure there's more tounge cutters like Roose then exiles like Jorah. The populace too is convinced everyone they see is a bandit so I'm going to assume there's a decent amount of banditry too. But Westeros acts like they have laws nonetheless, like Tarly in affc.

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Though I do think Victarion fighting in heavy armour despite the risk of drowning was quite cool, his armour had a good design.

(Forgot to respond to this)

Yea he's got cool armor, stupid helmet though. Yea, I mean medieval sword fighting anywhere, is pretty stupid to not do in armor. Like, drowning bad sure but stabbing bad too.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

The Greyjoys don't seem to ever catch a clue, aside from the late and great Quellon, that the Old Way is not only long dead but it's also completely obsolete due to the other kingdoms being far more organised than during the Age of Heroes, having castles and fortified cities and them having armies much more numerous, better-equipped; with horses, archers, siege weapons; and more disciplined against which Ironborn can't win wars and cannot hope to hold territories in the long run.

Nor that trade with the mainland, Free Cities and others, or privateering are far more profitable and viable both in the short-term and in the long run. 

It's something that the Hoares understood very-well, and why they were the best thing to happen to the Iron Islands.

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

it's hard to destroy a religion. I mean the relationship between humans and their god is literally beyond this world, so I don't see the drowned god going anywhere anytime soon.

The culture of thralldom and stuff, rock wives and what not, isn't going to be easy to extinguish.  

Baelor Blacktyde, who was a hostage for 8 years in Oldtown after Balon's rebellion, converted to the Faith of the Seven and is one of the few voices of reason at the Kingsmoot (he wants the war to end). In Scotland there was a system where the heirs of the Clans were legally required to be raised in the capital Edinburgh so that they would be raised as Protestants rather than Catholics. So potentially a similar system could see all the Ironborn heirs converted away from the drowned god. It obviously wouldn't work all the time, but it would mean at least some of the Ironborn lords were less bellicose. The law banning septs from the Islands could also be revoked.

I think one of the Ironborn kings did ban thralldom and/or rock wives but he ended up being deposed.

The Old Way is more effective if the kingdoms are divided but I just don't think it's sustainable because as soon as everyone else gets their affairs back in order, they come and wreck the Ironborn. It happened with an independent Westerlands as well as the throne whenever it's unified.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

It's funny that Ironborn say the Old Way died with Aegon's burning of Harrenhal when it died very long before that event, with it having become obsolete after the Andal invasions and reinforcements of the kingdoms, and the Hoares having smartly abandonned it for their better New Way.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Baelor Blacktyde, who was a hostage for 8 years in Oldtown after Balon's rebellion, converted to the Faith of the Seven and is one of the few voices of reason at the Kingsmoot (he wants the war to end).

Not sure thats reasonable, but for sure, there are converts

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

In Scotland there was a system where the heirs of the Clans were legally required to be raised in the capital Edinburgh so that they would be raised as Protestants rather than Catholics. So potentially a similar system could see all the Ironborn heirs converted away from the drowned god. It obviously wouldn't work all the time, but it would mean at least some of the Ironborn lords were less bellicose. The law banning septs from the Islands could also be revoked.

I suppose. Idk, to my understanding about Christianity (im not religious, or even if I was, im not Christian so I may be off) is the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are interpretations, like im pretty sure they all believe there is one God and Jesus is his son and our savior. 
Drowned God is a different then the 7, maybe. I guess its possible to say they're all the same anyway

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think one of the Ironborn kings did ban thralldom and/or rock wives but he ended up being deposed.

That sounds kinda right. Balons dad or grandpa was bugging, made stupid laws. Had his son killed by a maester, good times lol. 
I like the concepts, I mean obviously being a thrall is horrible but that their kids are fullblown ironborn and able to captain their own ship where they bow before no man is just terrific. I also kinda like the concept of rock wives for the nobility. Like Oberyns gf or Shae. When politicians cant get married below their stations it can make for a depressing life (in Shaes case a deadly one), but like if Dany has to marry Hizdar for politics, well I think she and Daario would be happy if they could marry for love too

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Old Way is more effective if the kingdoms are divided but I just don't think it's sustainable because as soon as everyone else gets their affairs back in order, they come and wreck the Ironborn. It happened with an independent Westerlands as well as the throne whenever it's unified.

Everywhere in Westeros has an uncomfortable history where they were on the losing end, and the country is hardly unified. It sometimes is, but its mostly fractured with strange alliances and backstabbing happening behind walls

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

It's funny that Ironborn say the Old Way died with Aegon's burning of Harrenhal when it died very long before that event, with it having become obsolete after the Andal invasions and reinforcements of the kingdoms, and the Hoares having smartly abandonned it for their better New Way.

When they ruled the Riverlands threatening the entire south?
What would you say the difference is between the old way and new way? 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not sure thats reasonable, but for sure, there are converts

I suppose. Idk, to my understanding about Christianity (im not religious, or even if I was, im not Christian so I may be off) is the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are interpretations, like im pretty sure they all believe there is one God and Jesus is his son and our savior. 
Drowned God is a different then the 7, maybe. I guess its possible to say they're all the same anyway

That sounds kinda right. Balons dad or grandpa was bugging, made stupid laws. Had his son killed by a maester, good times lol. 
I like the concepts, I mean obviously being a thrall is horrible but that their kids are fullblown ironborn and able to captain their own ship where they bow before no man is just terrific. I also kinda like the concept of rock wives for the nobility. Like Oberyns gf or Shae. When politicians cant get married below their stations it can make for a depressing life (in Shaes case a deadly one), but like if Dany has to marry Hizdar for politics, well I think she and Daario would be happy if they could marry for love too

Everywhere in Westeros has an uncomfortable history where they were on the losing end, and the country is hardly unified. It sometimes is, but its mostly fractured with strange alliances and backstabbing happening behind walls

When they ruled the Riverlands threatening the entire south?
What would you say the difference is between the old way and new way? 

They had only the Riverlands, which they managed by passing themselves as liberators to the riverlanders, against the reviled Durrandon kings invaders, and by actually mixing their naval tactics with actual land warfare instead of the classical Ironborn warfare.

And they couldn't hope to do the same to the other kingdoms that were more unified and better protected than the Riverlands, as Halleck Hoare warred against the Lannisters and Durrandons only to be beaten, and tried three times to attack the Vale only to be broken each time against the Bloody Gate. 

And I have already explained many times what the New Way was, and how much more successful it was compared to the Old Way, which had become long obsolete for reasons also already stated.

And even Harwyn and his descendants' invasion and occupation of the Riverlands wasn't the Old Way at all, since they didn't reave and pillage the Riverlands, relying on administrating their empire and exploiting the riches of the Riverlands, and mostly discarding the Iron Islands in favor of living and administrating from within the Riverlands.

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And I have already explained many times what the New Way was, and how much more successful it was compared to the Old Way, which had become long obsolete for reasons also already stated.

Can you please explain one more time?

6 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And even Harwyn and his descendants' invasion and occupation of the Riverlands wasn't the Old Way at all, since they didn't reave and pillage the Riverlands, relying on administrating their empire and exploiting the riches of the Riverlands, and mostly discarding the Iron Islands in favor of living and administrating from within the Riverlands

Old way means reaving? But new way means conquering?

But then Balon did new way stuff where as Andy Dalton Greyjoy was old?

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Catholicism and Protestantism are interpretations, like im pretty sure they all believe there is one God and Jesus is his son and our savior. 
Drowned God is a different then the 7, maybe. I guess its possible to say they're all the same anyway

There is the option to include the Drowned God as an aspect of the Stranger, as happened historically, to make it more palatable...I don't think my solution is a perfect one but I think it would mean a few more Ironborn lords following the Faith, which means less reaving/war etc. as the Drowned God religion seems to play a large role in encouraging those things. Also no salt wives for FotS followers. Perhaps fewer thralls as well.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I also kinda like the concept of rock wives for the nobility. Like Oberyns gf or Shae. When politicians cant get married below their stations it can make for a depressing life (in Shaes case a deadly one), but like if Dany has to marry Hizdar for politics, well I think she and Daario would be happy if they could marry for love too

It's cool as long as everyone agrees and both male and female have access to polygamous marriages if they choose. As long as the rock wives are well treated then it's way better because they are accepted and aren't seen as up jumped prostitutes.

42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not sure thats reasonable, but for sure, there are converts

I jus thought it was sensible because with winter coming etc. it made more sense for them to conserve their strength rather than wasting it on a fresh round of conquests.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

35 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Can you please explain one more time?

Old way means reaving? But new way means conquering?

But then Balon did new way stuff where as Andy Dalton Greyjoy was old?

Old Way is the lifestyle that early Ironborn practiced, living by reaving other territories to take ressources, thralls and salt wives, and then retreating to the Iron Islands, under the guidance of the Drowned God.

Ironborn had some possessions and colonies such as Bear Island or the Shield Islands, but these served majorly as bases to facilate and launch their raids, and all were eventually lost.

This way became obsolete because it discouraged trade, and that weapons such as bows or siege weapons were seen as cowardly, and they didn't have cavalry either, while the other kingdoms were growing in power, organisation, and built stone castles, fortified cities and their own fleets causing the Ironborn to lose all of their possessions outside of their home isles and to have their raids countered more and more frequently and easily, as well as now being exposed to the retaliations of mainlanders.

The New Way, created by House Hoare, discouraged reaving and instead focused on the strengthening and extension of trade, as well as the cultivation of friendships and political alliances with the mainland, especially with the Westerlands and the Reach, as well as tolerance and even protection toward the Faith of the Seven. 

The New Way was at its peak under Qhorwyn the Cunning who greatly expanded the Ironborn trade fleets, made the Ironborn the boldest sailors and merchants in the world with them taking shortcuts and routes that no one else dared to sail through, practiced neutrality to avoid ruining trade, but still built a strong fleet to dissuade potential aggressions, and he encouraged the Ironborn that weren't merchants to instead made themselves mercenaries and privateers that would satisfy their bloodlust by working for the cities of Essos against pirates or the other cities' fleets in the Free Cities' endless rivalries for trade and territories. Under Qhorwyn's rule the Hoares and Iron Islands had accumulated wealth that was undreamed of before.

It was however ended when Qhorwyn's son, Harwyn Hoare, conquered the Riverlands and chose to build a proper empire here, with the Ironborn focusing on occupying and ruling the Riverlands while warring with their neighbours, while the Iron Islands were reduced to a manpower source. This would be continued by his son and grandson until Aegon's Conquest.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

The irony is that said Hoare empire wasn't that popular for Ironborn traditionalists and Drowned Men at home, and even viewed as blasphemy by fundamentalist Drowned Men, who loathed the Hoares for being of Andal descent, worshippers of the Seven and the changes to the Ironborn's way of life they brought.

But modern traditionalists and revanchists never have a clear and strongly biased and changed view of history, with people like Balon and his brothers having only a vague and romanticised view of the Old Way, dreaming of the days where Ironborn could raid and reave with impunity, were independant and free of foreign influence while also wanting conquests, the whole while ignoring the changes the Hoares and their own father did and why the Old Way disappeared.

[Reekazoid]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Can you please explain one more time?

Old way means reaving? But new way means conquering?

But then Balon did new way stuff where as Andy Dalton Greyjoy was old?

Balon meant to reave and pillage the North.  It was Theon that accidentally the whole thing.

[Hugorfonics]

55 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Old Way is the lifestyle that early Ironborn practiced, living by reaving other territories to take ressources, thralls and salt wives, and then retreating to the Iron Islands, under the guidance of the Drowned God.

Ironborn had some possessions and colonies such as Bear Island or the Shield Islands, but these served majorly as bases to facilate and launch their raids, and all were eventually lost.

This way became obsolete because it discouraged trade, and that weapons such as bows or siege weapons were seen as cowardly, and they didn't have cavalry either, while the other kingdoms were growing in power, organisation, and built stone castles, fortified cities and their own fleets causing the Ironborn to lose all of their possessions outside of their home isles and to have their raids countered more and more frequently and easily, as well as now being exposed to the retaliations of mainlanders.

The New Way, created by House Hoare, discouraged reaving and instead focused on the strengthening and extension of trade, as well as the cultivation of friendships and political alliances with the mainland, especially with the Westerlands and the Reach, as well as tolerance and even protection toward the Faith of the Seven. 

The New Way was at its peak under Qhorwyn the Cunning who greatly expanded the Ironborn trade fleets, made the Ironborn the boldest sailors and merchants in the world with them taking shortcuts and routes that no one else dared to sail through, practiced neutrality to avoid ruining trade, but still built a strong fleet to dissuade potential aggressions, and he encouraged the Ironborn that weren't merchants to instead made themselves mercenaries and privateers that would satisfy their bloodlust by working for the cities of Essos against pirates or the other cities' fleets in the Free Cities' endless rivalries for trade and territories. Under Qhorwyn's rule the Hoares and Iron Islands had accumulated wealth that was undreamed of before.

It was however ended when Qhorwyn's son, Harwyn Hoare, conquered the Riverlands and chose to build a proper empire here, with the Ironborn focusing on occupying and ruling the Riverlands while warring with their neighbours, while the Iron Islands were reduced to a manpower source. This would be continued by his son and grandson until Aegon's Conquest.

New way is mercantilism and old is classic Westerosi barbarism? But if this is all ancient history I don't see what it's got to do with Balon.

Also in the history of trade, especially with vikings who were legendary traders and the inspiration of ironborn the main way they made money was human trafficking which sounds pretty old way to me

2 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

Balon meant to reave and pillage the North.  It was Theon that accidentally the whole thing.

Balon wanted to conquer the north, not just rob them. Theon, I'd say he did it on purpose lol

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

There is the option to include the Drowned God as an aspect of the Stranger, as happened historically, to make it more palatable...I don't think my solution is a perfect one but I think it would mean a few more Ironborn lords following the Faith, which means less reaving/war etc. as the Drowned God religion seems to play a large role in encouraging those things. Also no salt wives for FotS followers. Perhaps fewer thralls as well.

Maybe. Idk, when people fight faith the faithful often fight back. (Also it should be the Father, the Stranger would just piss everyone off. Or maybe all 7 are just aspects of the drowned?)

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's cool as long as everyone agrees and both male and female have access to polygamous marriages if they choose. As long as the rock wives are well treated then it's way better because they are accepted and aren't seen as up jumped prostitutes.

Word.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I jus thought it was sensible because with winter coming etc. it made more sense for them to conserve their strength rather than wasting it on a fresh round of conquests.

Winter just means staying indoors and drinking hot coco, the time for fighting is before or after, and II are kinda winning. I mean the islands themselves haven't even been touched but unlike Vale and Dorne it's not terrorized by the indigenous in the hills with Lannister swords or having the public riot and forced to put the royal family in chains. (Well, the last parts actually pretty II too lol)

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

New way is mercantilism and old is classic Westerosi barbarism? But if this is all ancient history I don't see what it's got to do with Balon.

Also in the history of trade, especially with vikings who were legendary traders and the inspiration of ironborn the main way they made money was human trafficking which sounds pretty old way to me

Balon wanted to conquer the north, not just rob them. Theon, I'd say he did it on purpose lol

Maybe. Idk, when people fight faith the faithful often fight back. (Also it should be the Father, the Stranger would just piss everyone off. Or maybe all 7 are just aspects of the drowned?)

Word.

Winter just means staying indoors and drinking hot coco, the time for fighting is before or after, and II are kinda winning. I mean the islands themselves haven't even been touched but unlike Vale and Dorne it's not terrorized by the indigenous in the hills with Lannister swords or having the public riot and forced to put the royal family in chains. (Well, the last parts actually pretty II too lol)

It's got to do with the fact that Balon is a revanchist and fanatic of the Old Way as he sees it, wanting to restablish the old raiding and pillaging lifestyle of the Ironborn, while not fully grasping what it was as he also has views and do things contradicting the original Old Way, and refusing to see that the situation is not the same that when the Old Way was the Ironborn's way of life with the kingdoms being stronger than the Iron Islands and having the means to repel the Ironborn's attacks, and that trade is far more profitable and substainable than the Old Way and foolish attempts at conquest. 

[Hugorfonics]

7 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

It's got to do with the fact that Balon is a revanchist and fanatic of the Old Way as he sees it

I think it's as you see it

7 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

wanting to restablish the old raiding and pillaging lifestyle of the Ironborn

He wanted conquest.

9 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

while not fully grasping what it was as he also has views and do things contradicting the original Old Way,

Right. So it's an ambiguous term that doesn't have a set definition?

10 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

and refusing to see that the situation is not the same that when the Old Way was the Ironborn's way of life with the kingdoms being stronger than the Iron Islands and having the means to repel the Ironborn's attacks

This is now or before? Because I'd say neither are true and that for the most part the only thing that put them into their place were dragons. (Greatjon says similar things but with the north)

12 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

and that trade is far more profitable and substainable than the Old Way and foolish attempts at conquest. 

Every greatlord of Westeros is beyond rich. They rule over thousands of households, it's honor that motivates them not money. Especially with ironborn 

[Reekazoid]

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He wanted conquest.

I have to go  back to the text.  I think Balon wanted to cut Robb's armies off at the Neck to leave the North free for the taking, yes, but as a raiding and pillaging preserve, rather than as an administrative department of his kingdom.

 

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Right. So it's an ambiguous term that doesn't have a set definition?

Pretty much. Although I wouldn't say it is completely ambiguous , rather just kind of fuzzy.  In an earlier post I brought up the fact that Balon seems to pick and choose what parts of "Old" and "New" to keep in his ideal Ironborn state. Upon reflection I think it mostly boils down to not wanting to have an overlord anymore.  Self-sovereignty.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think it's as you see it

He wanted conquest.

Right. So it's an ambiguous term that doesn't have a set definition?

This is now or before? Because I'd say neither are true and that for the most part the only thing that put them into their place were dragons. (Greatjon says similar things but with the north)

Every greatlord of Westeros is beyond rich. They rule over thousands of households, it's honor that motivates them not money. Especially with ironborn 

You obviously didn't really understand what I said. 

As I've said before Balon and his brothers, as well as many Ironborn are fans of the Old Way, or rather of what they see as the Old Way since the term for which it's used to describe the Ironborn's old livestyle of pillaging and raiding itself has changed over the course of history. 

The idea of conquests was added later, and especially for modern Ironborn after the loss of the empire in the Riverlands to the Targaryens, with Balon and his brothers wanting to restablish the pillage and raids of the mainland while also wanting conquests on the mainland. 

Both of which are obsolete because as I've said many times before by now, the other kingdoms are stronger than the Ironborn with them having larger and more diversified armies while the Ironborn warfare isn't suited for mainland medieval warfare due to their lack of discipline, cavalry, archers and siege weapons; and also because Ironborn are less numerous than the populations of the other kingdoms, save perhaps for Dorne. 

And also history and the main story have made it a point that Ironborn cannot hold their conquests, not without radically changing their warfare and strategies. They have inoxerably lost their possessions to the other kingdoms and suffered several times the retaliations of the other kingdoms, especially of House Lannister who invaded the Iron Islands two times and inflicted brutal revenge here before leaving. 

The one time it was different under the last Hoares kings was because Harwyn Hoare, who had travelled and fought around Essos as a sellsword and was well-versed in land warfare, had adapted the Ironborn's strategies and warfare for the Riverlands, and that the Hoares used the Riverlanders' ressentment of the Stormlanders and then their internal divisions to conquer and maintain their rule over the Riverlands, and ruled and lived from there instead of the Iron Islands. And they still failed to instill the loyalty of their subjects which would later help Aegon the Conqueror.

This time is not different because Balon and his family, unlike the Hoares, haven't learned from the past and have neither changed the Ironborn's way of war, that Ironborn are still far too few and undisciplined, nor they have diplomatic alliances on their side. Which is why Balon's first rebellion failed and why this invasion of the North was doomed to fail from the start too, and in the end cause more deaths and ruin to the Ironborn for nothing.

And the Greyjoys aren't motivated by honor, it's a ressentment of the mainlanders for the better lives and lands and more riches they have, hidden under a façade of superiority because they are "superior men" because they live in a harder land and are "killers" and because their religion say so, and ambition to retrieve what they have lost that motivate them. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Another proof of the unsustainibility of the Old Way, and conquest attempts of the Ironborn is that they utterly fail to instill loyalty in their subjects, and that the Ironborn who settled in their former colonies or conquests all eventually abandonned their previous lifestyle and the Drowned God to be assimilate the culture of the kingdoms they became part of after the Ironborn were beaten and chased of these lands. 

No one in Bear Islands, Cape Kraken, the Shield Islands or Fair Isle worship the Drowned God or practice reaving anymore, and the Ironborn who lived in the Riverlands by the time of Aegon's conquest had little in common with their raiders ancestors, living and acting more like mainlanders than the ones who were still living on the Iron Isles.

[Hugorfonics]

52 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

I have to go  back to the text.  I think Balon wanted to cut Robb's armies off at the Neck to leave the North free for the taking, yes, but as a raiding and pillaging preserve, rather than as an administrative department of his kingdom.

Define administration? Hope they pay their taxes on time and cross their fingers they aren't raping newlyweds and cutting their husbands tongues off? Sunset kingdoms aren't exactly known for their administrative departments.

But, Balon considered it his and went through the proper steps to keep it

Quote

Ser Kevan Lannister cleared his throat." As regards the Starks . . . Balon Greyjoy, who now styles himself King of the Isles and the North, has written to us offering terms of alliance."

"He ought to be offering fealty," snapped Cersei. "By what right does he call himself king?"

"By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore. King Balon's longships command the sunset sea, and are well placed to menace Lannisport, Fair Isle, and even Highgarden, should we provoke him."

 

56 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

Pretty much. Although I wouldn't say it is completely ambiguous , rather just kind of fuzzy.  In an earlier post I brought up the fact that Balon seems to pick and choose what parts of "Old" and "New" to keep in his ideal Ironborn state. Upon reflection I think it mostly boils down to not wanting to have an overlord anymore.  Self-sovereignty.

I agree, lots of asoiaf boils down to local government vs central government. Balon definitely didn't seem the radical type like Aeron 

53 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

As I've said before Balon and his brothers, as well as many Ironborn are fans of the Old Way, or rather of what they see as the Old Way since the term for which it's used to describe the Ironborn's old livestyle of pillaging and raiding itself has changed over the course of history. 

Yea so I don't think Balons Aeron. He just wants fame and power, not trying to bring back a culture. 

Even Aeron I'm unsure of, he doesn't want Theon or Euron on the throne, so he pulls out all these loopholes from a 10k year old, largely made up, history.

But he's definitely got some sense of bringing back his culture. I really don't think conquest and pillaging and rape and such is one of the stand out ones because everyone in Westeros is like that. I think it's more about, like, local semi democratic govts vs being ruled over and told what to do with their own navy 

59 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And the Greyjoys aren't motivated by honor, it's a ressentment of the mainlanders for the better lives and lands and more riches they have, hidden under a façade of superiority because they are "superior men" because they live in a harder land and are "killers",

It's their type of honor. And every other Westerosi 

Quote

"The Lannisters have more than fifty men," Arya pointed out.

"So they do, but every northerner is worth ten of these southron swords, so you can sleep easy."

 

54 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Another proof of the unsustainibility of the Old Way, and conquest attempts of the Ironborn is that they utterly fail to instill loyalty in their subjects

Again this isn't a specific Ironborn trait. The north conquered the fingers, they hate them. The Vale conquered it too and they hate them. Lannister recently conquered the RL and they hate them, except the Frey's who hate the Starks who previously conquered them.

Nobody likes being conquered 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

3 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

I have to go  back to the text.  I think Balon wanted to cut Robb's armies off at the Neck to leave the North free for the taking, yes, but as a raiding and pillaging preserve, rather than as an administrative department of his kingdom.

 

Pretty much. Although I wouldn't say it is completely ambiguous , rather just kind of fuzzy.  In an earlier post I brought up the fact that Balon seems to pick and choose what parts of "Old" and "New" to keep in his ideal Ironborn state. Upon reflection I think it mostly boils down to not wanting to have an overlord anymore.  Self-sovereignty.

I am not even sure Balon does know what he really wants, first time he rebelled to make himself independant and restore the reaving and raiding lifestyle, and 2nd time he wants conquest. 

But then again Balon is a bitter, petty and delluded individual, and he wanted revenge for his crushing defeat, and Ironborn revanchists themselves don't have the same vision of what the Old Way means.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Tower of the Hand did a very good job at explaining the Old Way, and why it fell, the New Way and the disastrous Ironborn revanchism in his article on the Iron Islands, here's it is for those who are curious to read it: Politics of the Seven Kingdoms Part V ~ Tower of the Hand