Heresy 244 Big Scaly Beasties with Bad Breath

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Okay I've watched the episode and I think you misunderstood what happened. Joffrey Lonmouth - aka Laenor's boyfriend - illuminated, shall we say, Criston Cole of the newly proposed marital arrangement that Rhaenyra and Laenor agreed to. It pissed Criston Cole off and he beat the ever loving shit out of Joffrey's face. Seemed like an over reaction, but we're supposed to understand that his guilt over breaking his vow of celibacy and then Rhaenyra's refusal to marry him was the source of his shame and jealous fury.

Right, but what happened just before Ser Criston beat that guy to death?  I could have sworn they were all dancing, the doors opened and 4 or 5 guards entered.  Then a bunch of people came rushing through as though they had been let in.  Then the melee ensued and Ser Criston murdered that guy.  Or did I fall asleep and just dream that happened?

Because I've done that before listening to ASOIAF livestreams.  The next thing you know, there are all these semi-famous youtube people in my house, like it's some kind of convention.  And I'm running around making coffee and sandwiches and baking.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Right, but what happened just before Ser Criston beat that guy to death?  I could have sworn they were all dancing, the doors opened and 4 or 5 guards entered.  Then a bunch of people came rushing through as though they had been let in.  Then the melee ensued and Ser Criston murdered that guy.  Or did I fall asleep and just dream that happened?

Because I've done that before listening to ASOIAF livestreams.  The next thing you know, there are all these semi-famous youtube people in my house, like it's some kind of convention.  And I'm running around making coffee and sandwiches and baking.

I don’t recall 4-5 guards entering. Just guests dancing and people watching.

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, Melifeather said:

 too bad there isn't a little wight emoji. This blue one will have to serve.

Who needs wights? Others aint dead 

Seriously though, there is a point here that while Mel [ignorant until Davos enlightened her] might be looking for the battle to begin up north and the faithful are looking for her to do her stuff and summon Azor Ahai as portrayed in the Mummers' version, I think that she and the faithful are going to get a shock

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Who needs wights? Others aint dead 

Seriously though, there is a point here that while Mel [ignorant until Davos enlightened her] might be looking for the battle to begin up north and the faithful are looking for her to do her stuff and summon Azor Ahai as portrayed in the Mummers' version, I think that she and the faithful are going to get a shock

Well, Azor Ahai is the right fiery hero to fight against ice. And Jon does dream of holding a fiery blade. Maybe that’s why the Watch mutinied? Because I think they were manipulated into making sure he wasn’t Azor Ahai. Not that they’d ever think of him that way, but if some entity wanted to remove any obstacles at the Wall…Jon Snow had to die.

[Brad Stark]

Not supposed to discuss the show, but this was a minor change that only affects the timing of the TV episodes.  In Fire and Blood, Cole kills Lonmouth during the tournament the next day, possibly on purpose, possibly by accident.  The show just moved the death up a day and made it clearly on purpose - probably for no other reason than to give us a clear and dramatic ending to the episode instead of starting the next episode with Lonmouth's death.  The show might also skip this tournament altogether. 

 

 

[Brad Stark]

I was almost certain I was the only one still lost on who and why gave the Catspaw the dagger to assassinate Bran.  Theories are all over the place though, so I am surprised this has been barely discussed over the years when so many less important questions have been repeatedly beat to death on this board.

[Melifeather]

46 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Not supposed to discuss the show, but this was a minor change that only affects the timing of the TV episodes.  In Fire and Blood, Cole kills Lonmouth during the tournament the next day, possibly on purpose, possibly by accident.  The show just moved the death up a day and made it clearly on purpose - probably for no other reason than to give us a clear and dramatic ending to the episode instead of starting the next episode with Lonmouth's death.  The show might also skip this tournament altogether. 

 

 

I looked it up also after watching the episode - mainly because of the Lonmouth name and the Knight of Skulls and Kisses, because I think the Lonmouth during Robert's day was also known as the Knight of Skulls and Kisses.

EDITED TO ADD: Even the sigil itself suggests that their "role" is to be entangled in a love triangle where someone is killed. I understand its due to their family sigil, but I was interested, because of my inversion/time loop theory, and even more so when you consider historical events as a series of plays and everyone are just mummers playing specific parts.

That whole situation of Cole killing Lonmouth should be one of those repeated events, however the tourney at Harrenhal wasn't a wedding tourney. Were there other similar parallels at Harrenhal? Rhaegar didn't have an elder sister to worry about his succession, but Richard Lonmouth was a former squire and close personal companion of Rhaegar. Are we supposed to wonder if Rhaegar had hidden sexual proclivities? Did he prefer goose to duck? 

Arianne Martell declared that Anders Yronwood was "Criston Cole reborn", because he was plotting to have Quentyn succeed their father as Lord of Sunspear even though she's the elder and her father's chosen heir - much like King Viserys promise that Rhaenyra would succeed him.

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I was almost certain I was the only one still lost on who and why gave the Catspaw the dagger to assassinate Bran.  Theories are all over the place though, so I am surprised this has been barely discussed over the years when so many less important questions have been repeatedly beat to death on this board.

I think the most generally accepted assumption is that Joffrey Baratheon hired the catspaw and took the dagger from his father's collection with the intention of framing Littlefinger. 

[Nevets]

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think the most generally accepted assumption is that Joffrey Baratheon hired the catspaw and took the dagger from his father's collection with the intention of framing Littlefinger. 

The problem with the catspaw is that there is no good solution.  I suspect it may be a retcon; that GRRM intended to leave it unsolved, but later realized that wouldn't work, but had no good solution available.

Joffrey is the least bad solution, but his motive is quite weak.  Littlefinger might have motive, but the timing would be extremely tight, and he has no reason to expect the dagger to be recovered (without Summer's intervention, it wouldn't have been), much less for himself to be in a position to identify it (falsely).  Other suspects, like Mance, are even worse.  So we're stuck with Joffrey.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Did he prefer goose to duck? 

Scratch that. In Rhaenyra's example duck is male and goose is female, which makes "I find goose too greasy" quite disgusting! LOL So if Rhaegar had some hidden sexual preference then I should have asked if he also preferred duck over goose?

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The problem with the catspaw is that there is no good solution.  I suspect it may be a retcon; that GRRM intended to leave it unsolved, but later realized that wouldn't work, but had no good solution available.

Joffrey is the least bad solution, but his motive is quite weak.  Littlefinger might have motive, but the timing would be extremely tight, and he has no reason to expect the dagger to be recovered (without Summer's intervention, it wouldn't have been), much less for himself to be in a position to identify it (falsely).  Other suspects, like Mance, are even worse.  So we're stuck with Joffrey.

Unless Joffrey suspected his mother's relationship with her brother? Then he had just as much motivation to kill the witness as anyone.

[EggBlue]

39 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Scratch that. In Rhaenyra's example duck is male and goose is female, which makes "I find goose too greasy" quite disgusting! LOL So if Rhaegar had some hidden sexual preference then I should have asked if he also preferred duck over goose?

some say so .... read:

 

 

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

some say so .... read:

 

 

Maybe Rhaegar would have rather run off with Howland or one of his other boyfriends? 

 

I forget the reasoning behind JonCon's preference for duck. Anyone care to illuminate me?

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

The problem with the catspaw is that there is no good solution.  I suspect it may be a retcon; that GRRM intended to leave it unsolved, but later realized that wouldn't work, but had no good solution available.

Joffrey is the least bad solution, but his motive is quite weak.  Littlefinger might have motive, but the timing would be extremely tight, and he has no reason to expect the dagger to be recovered (without Summer's intervention, it wouldn't have been), much less for himself to be in a position to identify it (falsely).  Other suspects, like Mance, are even worse.  So we're stuck with Joffrey.

Only up to a point. Joffrey never had the intelligence to plot something like this, far less deal directly with the catspaw. I'd be more inclined to see this as somebody unseen suggesting to Joffrey that it would be an absolutely splendid idea and that using a dagger belonging to the King would give the deed the royal imprimatur.

So who then was best placed to suggest it to Joffrey ?

[EggBlue]

13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I forget the reasoning behind JonCon's preference for duck. Anyone care to illuminate me?

in his chapters he thinks that he wished for Rhaegar's love , he thinks about Rhaegar romantically and refers to Rhaegar as my silver prince.  combine that with the fact that he is completely blind to Lemore's beauty in Tyrion's opinion and the fact that he reminisces his time with Myles Toyne , remembering that he was ugly as sin but Jon thinks when he smiled at you none of that mattered  . 

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, Nevets said:

The problem with the catspaw is that there is no good solution.  I suspect it may be a retcon; that GRRM intended to leave it unsolved, but later realized that wouldn't work, but had no good solution available.

Joffrey is the least bad solution, but his motive is quite weak.  Littlefinger might have motive, but the timing would be extremely tight, and he has no reason to expect the dagger to be recovered (without Summer's intervention, it wouldn't have been), much less for himself to be in a position to identify it (falsely).  Other suspects, like Mance, are even worse.  So we're stuck with Joffrey.

Eh, I think it's ridiculous to assume that Joffrey would go out of his way and sacrifice his valyrian dagger to help put Bran out of his misery.  The only part of Bran's misery that Joffrey cared about is the fact that it caused the direwolves to howl at night interrupting his sleep.  And by the time the catspaw visited Bran, Joffrey had already left Winterfell.

And since when did Joffrey care about trying to please his father?  And what a ridiculous way to try to please him, especially since you can't even admit that you were the cause of it.

If we're going that route, I'd put Tommen as a likelier suspect than Joffrey.  He actually seemed to care about pleasing his parents.  And as screwed up as it is, would probably be the more likelier of the two to go out of his way to put Bran out of his misery if he was convinced from his father's drunken statements that Bran would be better off.

I don't see Littelfinger's involvement here, other than after the fact trying to use the situation to his advantage.  Since this had to be a plan that only occurrs after everyone arrived in Winterfell, his absence from the scene makes it unlikely that he could have arranged the plot.

I still like Mance as a suspect.  For all we know, the catspaw was instructed to leave the dagger behind.  It's unlikely that he would have known the value of the blade or been familiar with valyrian steel.  And this blade is such overkill for the job, the only real reason to use it is to try to point the finger at a particular party.

[Black Crow]

Another mark against Joffery being [directly] responsible, is that fact that he's now dead. If there was any point to Joffrey having dunnit it would have been revealed before he died. There may well have been some involvement by Joffrey in the plot [Tommen is far too young], after all the dagger had to come from somewhere, but he wasn't the instigator.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

For all we know, the catspaw was instructed to leave the dagger behind.  It's unlikely that he would have known the value of the blade or been familiar with valyrian steel.  And this blade is such overkill for the job, the only real reason to use it is to try to point the finger at a particular party.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III

When she turned away from the window, the man was in the room with her.

"You weren't s'posed to be here," he muttered sourly. "No one was s'posed to be here."

He was a small, dirty man in filthy brown clothing, and he stank of horses. Catelyn knew all the men who worked in their stables, and he was none of them. He was gaunt, with limp blond hair and pale eyes deep-sunk in a bony face, and there was a dagger in his hand.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III

"Who was he?" Catelyn asked them.

"No one knows his name," Hallis Mollen told her. "He was no man of Winterfell, m'lady, but some says they seen him here and about the castle these past few weeks."

"One of the king's men, then," she said, "or one of the Lannisters'. He could have waited behind when the others left."

 

 

[Melifeather]

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III

"No," Catelyn said, louder now as she found her voice again. "No, you can't." She spun back toward the window to scream for help, but the man moved faster than she would have believed. One hand clamped down over her mouth and yanked back her head, the other brought the dagger up to her windpipe. The stench of him was overwhelming.

She reached up with both hands and grabbed the blade with all her strength, pulling it away from her throat. She heard him cursing into her ear. Her fingers were slippery with blood, but she would not let go of the dagger. The hand over her mouth clenched more tightly, shutting off her air. Catelyn twisted her head to the side and managed to get a piece of his flesh between her teeth. She bit down hard into his palm. The man grunted in pain. She ground her teeth together and tore at him, and all of a sudden he let go. The taste of his blood filled her mouth. She sucked in air and screamed, and he grabbed her hair and pulled her away from him, and she stumbled and went down, and then he was standing over her, breathing hard, shaking. The dagger was still clutched tightly in his right hand, slick with blood. "You weren't s'posed to be here," he repeated stupidly.

Catelyn saw the shadow slip through the open door behind him. There was a low rumble, less than a snarl, the merest whisper of a threat, but he must have heard something, because he started to turn just as the wolf made its leap. They went down together, half sprawled over Catelyn where she'd fallen. The wolf had him under the jaw. The man's shriek lasted less than a second before the beast wrenched back its head, taking out half his throat.

 

I think it's reasonable to conclude that the catspaw intended to leave the dagger, but then again he was a "small, dirty man" "gaunt" and with "sunken eyes". In other words, extremely poor, desperate for money, and wouldn't have had the means to own any kind of knife. There really isn't any proof that he intended to leave the blade. In fact, I would argue that such a man would want to keep such a valuable weapon. If he wanted to make a quick getaway from Catelyn, he could have just dropped the knife and ran, but he chose to attack her and he clutched the blade tightly.

The person doing the hiring would have needed to provide the blade. This particular blade could have been deliberately selected, but it equally could have just been handy or close at hand. It may also indicate that the person hiring didn't have many blades at their disposal and just took one. Having it throw suspicion on someone else may have been just a lucky bonus. 

 

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Eh, I think it's ridiculous to assume that Joffrey would go out of his way and sacrifice his valyrian dagger to help put Bran out of his misery.  The only part of Bran's misery that Joffrey cared about is the fact that it caused the direwolves to howl at night interrupting his sleep.  And by the time the catspaw visited Bran, Joffrey had already left Winterfell.

And since when did Joffrey care about trying to please his father?  And what a ridiculous way to try to please him, especially since you can't even admit that you were the cause of it.

If we're going that route, I'd put Tommen as a likelier suspect than Joffrey.  He actually seemed to care about pleasing his parents.  And as screwed up as it is, would probably be the more likelier of the two to go out of his way to put Bran out of his misery if he was convinced from his father's drunken statements that Bran would be better off.

I don't see Littelfinger's involvement here, other than after the fact trying to use the situation to his advantage.  Since this had to be a plan that only occurrs after everyone arrived in Winterfell, his absence from the scene makes it unlikely that he could have arranged the plot.

I still like Mance as a suspect.  For all we know, the catspaw was instructed to leave the dagger behind.  It's unlikely that he would have known the value of the blade or been familiar with valyrian steel.  And this blade is such overkill for the job, the only real reason to use it is to try to point the finger at a particular party.

It is most likely overthinking, but if the catspaw had succeeded and Bran had been killed, the plans of the 3EC would have failed. The Valyrian steel dagger would help against the Others, though. Like a trade-off. Who would want that?