Heresy 244 Big Scaly Beasties with Bad Breath

[LynnS]

The odd thing is that nobody knew him and he had been sleeping or hiding out in the barn.  Hodor was acting strangely due to his presence.  He must have come with the King's party, perhaps as a stable hand but didn't leave when the rest left.

[Brad Stark]

9 hours ago, Melifeather said:

On the surface, yes, that is a completely reasonable conclusion which I had suggested upthread. Then I offered an alternative. That the hired man wouldn't have owned his own knife. That he was too poor to have anything of value, even any kind of knife. If, for example, Cersei hired this man and he didn't own a knife. Where would she get a dagger? She'd grab what was at her disposal. How many daggers would Robert travel with? But the motive is what is more important than the choice of weapon. Why kill Bran? Here are some possible motives:

1) He saw Cersei and Jaime in the tower.

2) To create a divide between Ned and Robert.

3) To put a cripple out of misery - in my opinion, this is the least likely.

4) Some outside magical force wanted to prevent Bran from becoming the next greenseer.

Can anyone think of any other possible motives? 

I've actually considered 3) and 4) for Maester Ludwin himself.  He's clearly against magic and Bran's association with it, but emotionally attached to the Stark children as well as loyal out of his job.  If he already saw Bran as a problem, and now saw killing him as a mercy, he has motive.  He knows what is going on better than anyone, and his reaction to Catelyn returning to Bran when she did seems to fit.  The knife doesn't fit at all - Ludwin has no motive to frame anyone and is unlikely to pick up this dagger by chance.

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I actually think it's not so far fetched that Joffrey had decided he should shut Bran up after Tyrion told him to pay respects to Ned and Cat . it was just too much for Joff . he probably just summoned a nobody ,commanded him to kill the boy for his prince and when the guy muttered that he is not a knight and doesn't even have a weapon , Joff gave him a dagger nearby. 

The problem with that scenario is Joffery

Joffrey being the Joffrey we all knew and loved is just not someone who has that sort of contact with someone so far down the social scale. 

[Melifeather]

17 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Or there should have been something that had to be overcome that needed the VS blade

This would make sense if the motive was number 4 and someone was trying to prevent Bran from becoming the next greenseer. A blade of fire used against a possible agent of ice? Or is it actually a blade of fire used against a possible agent also of fire? I'll circle back to this thought below.

I've already accepted that Bran was lured to the tower for the explicit purpose of being pushed, because Bloodraven couldn't wait any longer for Bran to come, but he didn't want him dead.

There must be an unseen force that is the flip side of Bloodraven. Melisandre thinks Bloodraven and Bran are the champions of Ice, but I'm not so sure. 

Euron seems to parallel Bloodraven. He's the Crow's Eye (later Bloodeye) and where Bloodraven is white-haired and red-eyed, Euron is dark-haired with a black eye shining of malice. Bloodraven is missing an eye. Euron wears an eye patch over his black eye while his other eye is blue as a summer sky.

Bloodraven sits a white weirwood throne attended by Children. In the Forsaken, Damphair sees Euron sitting on a throne of black skulls attended by dwarves.

Bloodraven is underground and sees the past, present, and future through the trees. Euron drinks the blue-colored shade of the evening which imparts the drinker with visions of the past, present, and future.

It is said that Bloodraven has 1001 eyes, because he could skinchange crows and ravens to spy on people when he yet walked the earth. Euron is the Crow's Eye, because he sees everything from overhead. He looks down from the sky like a crow to do his spying.

Euron also forced Damphair to drink the shade of the evening and he experienced this vision:

Quote

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

Who is this long, tall, terrible woman with hands alive with pale white fire? She must be Melisandre's opposite. I said that I would circle back to the champion of Ice. Wouldn't it be just like GRRM to have a white greenseer be the champion of fire and a black wizard be the champion of Ice?

Euron owns a suit of black scale armor covered in patterns, glyphs, and arcane symbols. Damphair believes the armor is made of Valyrian steel. If Bloodraven has armor, it must be the weirwood roots that surround and go through him.

Damphair's memory of Euron and the squeaky hinge has been revealed to be sexual child abuse in the transcripts. Symbolically this is the inversion to what Bran did to Hodor. Maybe Euron didn't sexually rape Aeron Damphair...maybe he forced himself inside, as in, he skinchanged into Damphair against his will much like Bran forced himself into Hodor. Hodor is childlike in intelligence so he could be the opposite to Aeron. We know "Hodor" is supposed to be something connected to holding a door. A scene that played out on the HBO version, but that the author hinted was not quite what he had in mind.

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

22 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I've already accepted that Bran was lured to the tower for the explicit purpose of being pushed, because Bloodraven couldn't wait any longer for Bran to come, but he didn't want him dead.

20 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Damphair's memory of Euron and the squeaky hinge has been revealed to be sexual child abuse in the transcripts. Symbolically this is the inversion to what Bloodraven did, but how are we to interpret it? What it does suggest, at least to me, is that Bloodraven is connected to the unraveling and opening of the hinge...and that the raping of children is symbolic of what Bloodraven did to BRAN.

Really interesting observation. There was another discussion about pov characters being skin changed and I  can't help but wonder if we haven't seen it already happen and they were completely oblivious. Perhaps Lord Rivers has a subtler touch than Bran or Varamyr demonstrated when reaching out to humans for their first times. Maybe it wasn't even Jamie who said "The things I do for love". Anyway, deliberately luring Bran to the tower and his fall might be heinous enough to compare to Euron's treatment of his younger brothers. I wonder though how Bloodraven could have been confident that Bran would survive the fall.  Is the flip side of this the implication that there was a specific goal behind Euron's depredations? That would seem to be consistent with what we've seen of him.

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Joffrey being the Joffrey we all knew and loved is just not someone who has that sort of contact with someone so far down the social scale. 

This has always been a problem with the Joffrey answer. Perhaps the milieu of the King's train was a little looser in Winterfell, but a straight line between Joff and the assassin that doesn't include at least one or two intermediaries seems improbable at best and impossible/ preposterous at the other end of the spectrum. 

[Melifeather]

Why does the motive for killing Bran matter? The more I go over this the more I suspect that it was actually an attempt to prevent Bran from becoming the next greenseer. But before I discard the other motives and players, there is still the question of who was being manipulated? Because just as I believe Bran was manipulated, rather, "lured" to the tower to see Cersei and Jaime, someone also lured either Joffrey, Cersei, Littlefinger, etc to do the actual killing. All of this requires a knowledge of past, present, and future. Bloodraven didn't want Bran to die. He just wanted him to come to the cave of skulls to become the next greenseer. So by logic the person or entity that wanted Bran dead wanted to prevent him from becoming the next greenseer. 

Chew on this. Bloodraven was a Targaryen loyalist. Yes he had other loyalties, but all in all the Targaryens were "fire". Yes, he was an albino with red eyes which are the markings of the old gods just as Jon Snow's direwolf was noted to be, but are the old gods ice gods? I think we are being deliberately misled, because surely any god would be equally fire and ice? 

Bloodraven was likely chosen as a greenseer, because he had "old god" abilities to skinchange and had nothing to do with being on the side of ice or fire. Just that his skinchanging ability was awakened somehow. Bran needed his third eye to be opened and apparently a near-death experience was needed. Is it possible that Bran was needed so that he could skinchange into the wights, much like Bloodraven had the ability to skinchange into a thousand crows and ravens, to take (wrest) control from an agent that currently has control over them? Surely such a task requires a certain amount of force. Bran needs to "rape" the mind of the agent that currently has control.

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Really interesting observation. There was another discussion about pov characters being skin changed and I  can't help but wonder if we haven't seen it already happen and they were completely oblivious. Perhaps Lord Rivers has a subtler touch than Bran or Varamyr demonstrated when reaching out to humans for their first times. Maybe it wasn't even Jamie who said "The things I do for love". Anyway, deliberately luring Bran to the tower and his fall might be heinous enough to compare to Euron's treatment of his younger brothers. I wonder though how Bloodraven could have been confident that Bran would survive the fall.  Is the flip side of this the implication that there was a specific goal behind Euron's depredations? That would seem to be consistent with what we've seen of him.

 

I had modified my post that you replied to. I erased the idea that Bloodraven "raped" Bran and put Bran raped Hodor.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I had modified my post that you replied to. I erased the idea that Bloodraven "raped" Bran and put Bran raped Hodor.

oh, well then...

[Melifeather]

Sorry. I've been editing. Please go back and reread my previous three posts.

[Melifeather]

Just now, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

oh, well then...

Bloodraven certainly "groomed" Bran. I guess the terminology would be more akin to statutory rape.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

24 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Bloodraven certainly "groomed" Bran. I guess the terminology would be more akin to statutory rape.

I'm looking forward to getting a better understanding ( I guess I'll settle for a hint) of what the extent of River's powers really are. How much could he really pull off by himself sitting in his roots? Could he have directly interfered in the encounter between Bran and Jamie? Seems like a lot, but it's been suggested that he's the animator behind Beric/ Cat and without going into whether or not that's likely I would say that if he could do one, he could probably do the other too.

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Is it possible that Bran was needed so that he could skinchange into the wights, much like Bloodraven had the ability to skinchange into a thousand crows and ravens, to take (wrest) control from an agent that currently has control over them? Surely such a task requires a certain amount of force. Bran needs to "rape" the mind of the agent that currently has control.

Bloodraven never had to go against an evil, magical force before. He sat and watched and told Bran that, much as he tried he couldn't change anything. He watched the past and present and saw the future and witnessed Bran's potential and suddenly knew what needs to be done.

Bran must take over for Bloodraven and will need to defeat Euron. I like the idea that Bran needs to force himself into and rape Euron's mind. I wonder if there's a Marvel or DC storyline where Dr Strange "rapes" someone's mind?

 

 

[Melifeather]

For those that aren't familiar with the parallels that I've posted here in the past between Bran and Dr Strange. Bran may be a time traveler. Every time Brandon Stark dies he's reborn as a new Brandon Stark. History repeats and is locked in a continual loop - a feature that Dr Strange utilized to defeat Dormammu. Bloodraven is Bran's Sorcerer Supreme and Euron is like the failed apprentice, Mordo.

Doctor Strange, through sheer will power and unaided by any magical spells, can take the power of another entity or even possess their body. When doing so, he absorbs their minds and assumes their duties in the dimension in which they exist-- though he runs the risk of completely losing himself in character. 

He has used this power on several occasions, such as in Doctor Strange #80 when he borrowed the body of someone nearby to assist in a surgery on himself. Perhaps the most famous was when he called upon the demonic Zom to try and stop World War Hulk after getting his hands smashed. Ultimately Hulk smashed Zom too and, as a result of trifling in black magic, Strange was stripped of his Sorcerer Supreme title (temporarily).

Bran may have to perform some Dr Strange-like powers to possess Euron's body, absorbing his mind and assuming his duties in the "dimension" in which he exists. And he may run the risk of completely losing himself in Euron's character. He may need to be removed from his weirwood throne to save him, but is he actually dead? Did the weirwood paste kill him and wed him to the trees and can only exist as a greenseer? This may be where the "temporarily stripped" comes in...

[Brad Stark]

On 9/26/2022 at 2:50 AM, Black Crow said:

That's why I think that it is simple

Somebody thought it would be a good idea to kill Bran. The intended assassin could have done it with a common kitchen knife or strangled him, or suffocated him, or bashed his head in with a half brick

Instead he attempted to use a Valyrian dagger which was quickly traced back to the Royal household. Clearly it was intended to be found at the crime-scene

Catelyn does not recognize the dagger as anything special, but Rodrik Cassel does.  A non-expert at arms would probably get the same reaction Catelyn did - just a sharp knife with nothing special about it.  If this was an attempt to use a dagger traced back to anyone, it was someone who knew Rodrik would examine the dagger and know what it was.  Probably someone close to House Stark or actually in Winterfell.  Why use a priceless dagger (yours or someone else's) when it is likely to be cast aside as just another knife?

[Melifeather]

I don't want to move too far ahead of where my thoughts are traveling, because I'd love to read everyone's reactions to what I'm proposing, but this idea of an outside force luring people to do things. Bran lured to the tower. Jaime lured into pushing Bran. Joffrey/Cersei/Littlefinger lured into killing Bran. Added to this, I think the Watch was lured to mutiny. Lord Commander Jon Snow was a force at the Wall and he needed to be removed in order to get the wights through.

Bowen Marsh was crying when he stabbed Jon saying he did it for the Watch, but his tears indicate that this actually goes against his nature. He's been at the Wall and training new recruits for a very long time. Sure he was angry about Jon's decision to let the wildlings through the Wall, but I can't help but think what Melisandre said to Jon regarding who his real enemies were.
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

...Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?"

"I know their names."

"Do not be so certain." The ruby at Melisandre's throat gleamed red. "It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold."

 

She said they would smile to his face and sharpen their knives behind their backs. Bowen Marsh never hid his dislike or disagreement with any decision. Even the "ganglinig" steward backed away with his hands up as if in surprise.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII - unlucky 13

"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

 

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

hard-pressed, with enemies on every side.

Hard pressed with enemies on every side or perhaps both sides of the Wall?

I still think the wildlings are the smiling enemy sharpening their blades behind their backs. Now that they convinced Jon to let them through the Wall, the next step is to usher the wights through.

[alienarea]

58 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Hard pressed with enemies on every side or perhaps both sides of the Wall?

I still think the wildlings are the smiling enemy sharpening their blades behind their backs. Now that they convinced Jon to let them through the Wall, the next step is to usher the wights through.

As Melisandre travels close to the lands of ice, her counterpart should travel close to the lands of fire ... Quaithe.

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, alienarea said:

As Melisandre travels close to the lands of ice, her counterpart should travel close to the lands of fire ... Quaithe.

Is Quaithe a candidate for the terrible woman with pale white flames? Her method of coming to people in dreams does seem to be closely aligned with Euron's ability to spy from up above - the Crow's-Eye-view so to speak.

Quaithe is a shadowbinder from Asshai. Melisandre is also a shadowbinder from Asshai. She is also a Red Priestess of R'hllor. These two figures seem to be on the same side. I would venture to say that the opposite of Quaithe (red mask) is Morna White Mask.

The opposite of Melisandre seems to be Val. We don't see Val acting like a priestess, but she certainly holds a sort of honored position within the wildling folk. Her sister Dalla was Mance's queen. King Stannis treats Val as a princess. Val came from the far north which is the opposite of where Melisandre came from. Jon sent Val to bring peace terms to Tormund Giantsbane who took charge after Mance left for Winterfell. When she returned she was dressed in white.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

 

Why did Ghost seem to align himself with Val when he emerged out of the woods beside her?

[Melifeather]

The only thing that would make the dagger more perfect is if it were made of obsidian rather than Valyrian steel, because then it could've been a magical conduit much like a glass candle. I recall reading a theory by Sweet Sunray about the use of mirrors and reflections in ASOIAF. If you've read GRRM's short story The Skin Trade which had werewolves that used mirrors to attack their victims.

I've just finished watching the latest episode of HotD and I have to say I really admire how well we understand the motives of both Rhaenyra and Alicent. Its hard to pick a side, because they both have very good reasons. My only criticism is how quickly they have aged the characters. At this rate they will finish the story of Rhaenyra by the end of the current season. If they get a season two it will need to be Aegon son of Alicent versus Aegon son of Rhaenyra.