Heresy 244 Big Scaly Beasties with Bad Breath

[Melifeather]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What was the sacrifice?  Was it an unborn child?

I have suggested before that Aerys and Rhaella's dead children were actually child sacrifices. Once they had the heir and the spare (Rhaegar and Viserys) the rest were disposable. Daenerys escaped that fate, because she was born on Dragonstone away from her father. 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

That song suggests that the third head of the dragon is a sacrifice. These are the three heads: dragon, rider, and the sacrifice.

Yea, I agree.  The sacrifice was Rhaenyra’s child, Visenya.  

My theory for a while is Rhaegar was discussing prophecies from three different cultures in Dany’s vision at the HOTU.  

The dragon has three heads, is an ancient Valyrian prophecy/belief, and the true reason behind Aegon’s decision to adopt the three headed dragon as his banner.

The Prince that was Promised, was a Rhoynish prophecy, a thousand years old which heavily borrowed from the even older Eastern prophecy of Azhor Ahai.  When Daeron married his Dornish princess, the prophecy was passed down to their children and grandchildren.  Most notably, Aerys I, Aemon , and Aegon V. 

And the Song of Ice and Fire is a Westerosi prophecy concerning the Battle for the Dawn.  

Rhaegar and Aemon have decided that all these prophecies are interrelated.  Notably Rhaegar seems to believe that his son with his Dornish wife was the fulfillment of the Prince that was Promised prophecy.  

Finally to make sense of Aemon’s talk of the Sphinx being the riddle not the riddler seems to be related to a notion that GRRM toyed with introducing in ADWD.  That the Valyrians created Sphinxes.  So the question is what is a Sphinx?  A Valyrian Sphinx is a dragon with a face of man or woman.  My guess is that they aren’t actual biological hybrids of human and dragon.  But instead was a way to transfer a human consciousness into a dragon.  To create an immensely powerful second life.  

One that would be ideally suited to lead a fight against an enemy who uses cold to their advantage.

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, I agree.  The sacrifice was Rhaenyra’s child, Visenya.  

Now I want to go back and watch the episode. Was Daemon singing to the dragon while Rhaenyra was in labor?

 

[Melifeather]

Daenerys heard a dragon singing to her:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. "Khaleesi," Jhiqui said, "what is wrong? Are you sick?"

 

 

Mirri sang to send the life from the stallion into Drogo, but she may have took Rhaego's life instead:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

"I will stay," Dany said. "The man took me under the stars and gave life to the child inside me. I will not leave him."

"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them."

Dany bowed her head, helpless. "No one will enter." She bent over the tub, over Drogo in his bath of blood, and kissed him lightly on the brow. "Bring him back to me," she whispered to Mirri Maz Duur before she fled.

 

 

Mirri sang while she burned in the funeral pyre, likely sending her own life into one of the dragon eggs - maybe even the lives of Drogo and Rhaego into the dragon eggs also?

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

Jhogo spied it first. "There," he said in a hushed voice. Dany looked and saw it, low in the east. The first star was a comet, burning red. Bloodred; fire red; the dragon's tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign.

Dany took the torch from Aggo's hand and thrust it between the logs. The oil took the fire at once, the brush and dried grass a heartbeat later. Tiny flames went darting up the wood like swift red mice, skating over the oil and leaping from bark to branch to leaf. A rising heat puffed at her face, soft and sudden as a lover's breath, but in seconds it had grown too hot to bear. Dany stepped backward. The wood crackled, louder and louder. Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice. The flames whirled and writhed, racing each other up the platform. The dusk shimmered as the air itself seemed to liquefy from the heat. Dany heard logs spit and crack. The fires swept over Mirri Maz Duur. Her song grew louder, shriller … then she gasped, again and again, and her song became a shuddering wail, thin and high and full of agony.

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

22 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Now I want to go back and watch the episode. Was Daemon singing to the dragon while Rhaenyra was in labor?

 

I think it was after.  After her child died, they burned the child on a pyre and sometime after that Daemon went to the Dragon Mont.

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think it was after.  After her child died, they burned the child on a pyre and sometime after that Daemon went to the Dragon Mont.

Of course the dragon Daemon sang to was already hatched and grown, but maybe its a way to bond a dragon? Mirri's singing seemed to cause Daenerys miscarriage, but that wasn't a dragon hatching ceremony - it was to help Drogo stay alive. On the other hand, if bonding a dragon requires singing and sending a life into the dragon, why didn't they show Aemond doing those things to bond with Vhagar?

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I have suggested before that Aerys and Rhaella's dead children were actually child sacrifices. Once they had the heir and the spare (Rhaegar and Viserys) the rest were disposable. Daenerys escaped that fate, because she was born on Dragonstone away from her father. 

It does seem to be a callback to MMD's tent ritual.  She tells Dany that she knew the price.  Blood for fire/fire for blood type magic.  But it's mixed up with Drogo and the dragon eggs which were also in the tent.

Daemon seems to be invoking some kind of prayer with his song asking an older, more powerful dragon to become one of the three heads and join Rhaenyra and himself.  Perhaps beseeching  Vermithor to choose a rider.

 

[Black Crow]

I'm somewhat hampered here by not seeing the series [and distracted by real world events], but this does seem to be getting to the heart of the dragons' relationship with the Targaryens and how Danaerys, the last Dragonlord, fits into things - I'm convinced by Frey Family Reunion's argument.

However, if he is indeed right, then that only emphasises how far Jon Snow is outside that circle

[Melifeather]

23 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, I agree.  The sacrifice was Rhaenyra’s child, Visenya.  

My theory for a while is Rhaegar was discussing prophecies from three different cultures in Dany’s vision at the HOTU.  

The dragon has three heads, is an ancient Valyrian prophecy/belief, and the true reason behind Aegon’s decision to adopt the three headed dragon as his banner.

The Prince that was Promised, was a Rhoynish prophecy, a thousand years old which heavily borrowed from the even older Eastern prophecy of Azhor Ahai.  When Daeron married his Dornish princess, the prophecy was passed down to their children and grandchildren.  Most notably, Aerys I, Aemon , and Aegon V. 

And the Song of Ice and Fire is a Westerosi prophecy concerning the Battle for the Dawn.  

Rhaegar and Aemon have decided that all these prophecies are interrelated.  Notably Rhaegar seems to believe that his son with his Dornish wife was the fulfillment of the Prince that was Promised prophecy.  

Finally to make sense of Aemon’s talk of the Sphinx being the riddle not the riddler seems to be related to a notion that GRRM toyed with introducing in ADWD.  That the Valyrians created Sphinxes.  So the question is what is a Sphinx?  A Valyrian Sphinx is a dragon with a face of man or woman.  My guess is that they aren’t actual biological hybrids of human and dragon.  But instead was a way to transfer a human consciousness into a dragon.  To create an immensely powerful second life.  

One that would be ideally suited to lead a fight against an enemy who uses cold to their advantage.

Don't you think the "dragon has three heads" is more of a recipe on how to bond a dragon?

The dagger inscription reads:

“from my blood come the prince that was promised, and his will be the song of ice and fire."

Prior to falling into the hands of Aegon, the dagger was forged from Valyrian steel and given to Aegon's ancestor, Aenar Targaryen. The show specifically ties the dagger to Aegon's dream. In his dream he saw absolute darkness riding on the cold winds, and whatever dwells within will destroy the world of the living. 

[Frey family reunion]

36 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Don't you think the "dragon has three heads" is more of a recipe on how to bond a dragon?

The dagger inscription reads:

“from my blood come the prince that was promised, and his will be the song of ice and fire."

Prior to falling into the hands of Aegon, the dagger was forged from Valyrian steel and given to Aegon's ancestor, Aenar Targaryen. The show specifically ties the dagger to Aegon's dream. In his dream he saw absolute darkness riding on the cold winds, and whatever dwells within will destroy the world of the living. 

I very much think that the dagger etc. is a show only conceit.  

[Melifeather]

53 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I very much think that the dagger etc. is a show only conceit.  

The dagger does not get a mention in the book Fire & Blood, but it does pop up in ASOIAF a couple times, although no one has mentioned whether or not an inscription is on it. Like I said upthread, a tidy solution has been provided to tie in the HBO storylines of HotD and GOT and the dagger is central to that solution. But I do doubt that Jon Snow is the current Aegon the younger, because I still doubt his parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think the storyline was created as a way to not spoil the books. And the reason why there is so much available on the subjects of Targaryens and dragons is because they too cannot spoil the unpublished parts of the story. If we return to the old letter where George states his main characters, they're nearly all Starks. We're constantly told that "the North remembers", but that "Winterfell forgot". Surely this is where the real story is going?

 

[LynnS]

A bit more of the Random House interview:

 

[Brad Stark]

Where did we get the idea Jon's real name was Aegon?  Is this from the show?  This makes no sense, given Rheagar had another son Aegon already, who was probably still alive when Jon was born.   I always suspected his name was Aemon, like the dragonknight he specifically thinks about and looks up to.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Where did we get the idea Jon's real name was Aegon?  Is this from the show?  This makes no sense, given Rheagar had another son Aegon already, who was probably still alive when Jon was born.   I always suspected his name was Aemon, like the dragonknight he specifically thinks about and looks up to.

As I recall its pure [and quite old] fanfic speculation by the R+L=J crowd which made its way across to the Mummers' version. There's no textual support

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Where did we get the idea Jon's real name was Aegon?  Is this from the show?  This makes no sense, given Rheagar had another son Aegon already, who was probably still alive when Jon was born.   I always suspected his name was Aemon, like the dragonknight he specifically thinks about and looks up to.

The only way that I could understand Rhaegar naming a second son the same as a first son would be if he knew the first son was dead. Unless you are like George Foreman who has five sons all named George.

[LynnS]

I just came across the complete interview with Random House:

 

[LynnS]

Interesting factoid:

Quote

Asteroid 418532 Saruman was named after the wizard and in honour of the actor Christopher Lee.^[33] The official naming citation was published by the Minor Planet Center on 25 September 2018 (M.P.C. 111804).^[34]

I'm starting to wonder if the Stranger in RoP is an earlier version of Saruman rather than Gandalf considering the delivery system.

GRRM told History of Westeros that he had not yet had a planetary or celestial object named after any of his characters; although a number of critters had been so named.  Hodor is somewhere on that list.

[Melifeather]

57 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Interesting factoid:

I'm starting to wonder if the Stranger in RoP is an earlier version of Saruman rather than Gandalf considering the delivery system.

GRRM told History of Westeros that he had not yet had a planetary or celestial object named after any of his characters; although a number of critters had been so named.  Hodor is somewhere on that list.

The seven wanderers are planets, of which one of them, we are told, is named the Smith. I think we can assume all seven planets are named after the seven aspects of the faith: Father, Warrior, Smith, Mother, Maiden, Crone, and Stranger.

[Lord of the Gourd]

I think the show named Jon Snow as Aegon possibly because GRRM told them that is his true name. If this speculation is correct, Jon Snow is the son and eldest child of Rhaegar and Elia. And I'm ok with this. 

[asongofheresy]

On 10/24/2022 at 6:42 PM, Melifeather said:

Not only does Aemond look like Bloodraven, but they gave him a blazing blue eye??? I'm assuming its a sapphire or something, but why make it look like there's an inner light?

It could be a Star Sapphire, it would tie Aemond to Symeon Star Eyes - I wrote about Gemstone Empire of Dawn before and identified God On Earth as Sapphire Emperor as well, so Aemond's death at God's Eye is interesting