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Heresy 244 Big Scaly Beasties with Bad Breath


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6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The whispering through the weirwood heart trees suggests that Bran may have found a way to influence certain people to action. A great example is Theon who I believe is also the Ghost of Winterfell. You can read my position here: https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/post/19685/thread

I agree with this statement and should clarify my position on time travel as it "may" relate to the books.

I'm okay with Bran (or a greenseer) advancing backwards in time and then forward to the present.    I seem to recall the phrase that the trees (weirwoods) remember, so plugging into the past after sipping the tea is a fairly easy jump in my mind.  Where I would have difficulty (and great disappointment) is if someone could advance forward in time past the present.  Those memories haven't been created yet and thus the trees would not be able to retain them. 

I'm okay with the notion of influencing, or guiding future actions based upon the present or past experiences, but I would go further and say that this happens today (should happen) in our current world existence.

P.S. I also agree with @alienarea about barely being able to keep track on the series in my own mind, much less factoring in everyone's else's thoughts and theories.

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10 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I'm getting the message from the lack of response

There's no message from me.  I'm occupied with other things.  My nephew decided to stop his chemo because it isn't doing him any good.  So he's in the palliative care stage now.  My heart sank to hear it.  I'm keeping busy and listening to audiobooks.  I'm happy to just read the Heresy thread for the time being.

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1 hour ago, Mace Cooterian said:

I agree with this statement and should clarify my position on time travel as it "may" relate to the books.

I'm okay with Bran (or a greenseer) advancing backwards in time and then forward to the present.    I seem to recall the phrase that the trees (weirwoods) remember, so plugging into the past after sipping the tea is a fairly easy jump in my mind.  Where I would have difficulty (and great disappointment) is if someone could advance forward in time past the present.  Those memories haven't been created yet and thus the trees would not be able to retain them. 

I'm okay with the notion of influencing, or guiding future actions based upon the present or past experiences, but I would go further and say that this happens today (should happen) in our current world existence.

P.S. I also agree with @alienarea about barely being able to keep track on the series in my own mind, much less factoring in everyone's else's thoughts and theories.

If I remember correctly the people who have performed divination before have said there are glimpses of the future and also more than one future - possible futures. I forgot to add that both Jojen and Thoros also could see the future. Jojen had greendreams that were symbolic in nature and Thoros looked in the flames just as Melisandre did. These visions guided their decision making.

When Daenerys drank the shade of the evening and entered the House of the Undying she received instructions from Pyat Pree who told her she'd see the past, present, future and things that never were.

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"The door to my right," Dany repeated. "I understand. And when I leave, the opposite?"

"By no means," Pyat Pree said. "Leaving and coming, it is the same. Always up. Always the door to your right. Other doors may open to you. Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. Dwellers and servitors may speak to you as you go. Answer or ignore them as you choose, but enter no room until you reach the audience chamber."

 

Melisandre said it takes years of training and practice to read the visions properly

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A Storm of Swords - Davos VI

"Fire is a living thing," the red woman told him, when he asked her to teach him how to see the future in the flames. "It is always moving, always changing . . . like a book whose letters dance and shift even as you try to read them. It takes years of training to see the shapes beyond the flames, and more years still to learn to tell the shapes of what will be from what may be or what was. Even then it comes hard, hard. You do not understand that, you men of the sunset lands." Davos asked her then how it was that Ser Axell had learned the trick of it so quickly, but to that she only smiled enigmatically and said, "Any cat may stare into a fire and see red mice at play."

 

 

I think Bran is a fast learner and he will try to use what he knows of the past and present to change the future. "Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present." I think this last sentence I've quoted is as big of a hint as we can hope to get that suggests that the people of Westeros are trapped in a continual time loop.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Will I see my father again?"

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

 

 

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7 hours ago, alienarea said:

Having seen the Westworld series season 1 - 4 I sometimes wonder whether we are reading about Westerosworld :P

And are bots in StrangeWorld ourselves.

Westworld is much harder to understand than ASOIAF! 

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I've been musing over HBO's HOTD, lately and I wonder if GRRM is trying to give us a hint about Hightower's role in the Song of Ice and Fire?

The bit from last night that made me think about this was 

Spoiler

The part where Alicent grabs the valyrian dagger from King Viserys and tries to put out one of Rhaenerys' kids eyes with it.  Rhaenerya and Alicent wrestle over the dagger, and Rhaenerya looks at the dagger and I think you see a part of the runes shining through as they wrestle over it.  The runes that reference TPTWP prophecy.

So as we know from F&B, Aemond loses an eye, but gains a dragon.  The dragon later fights for House Hightower's side of the Greens.  Aemond later replaces his eye with a sapphire.  Which of course brings to mind the Others and their sapphire blue eyes.

In and of itself that doesn't mean much.  But we learn in the appendices that House Hightower has a history of magic in their background to include a dabbling of necromancy.  We also learn that Lord Hightower has holed himself up in his Hightower along with his witch daughter, where they are allegedly dabbling in sorcery.  I do wonder if that somehow coincides with the appearance of the White Walkers, north of the Wall.

The Hightower is also the only structure in the realm which is taller than the Wall.  Does this allow for House Hightower to communicate with someone north of the Wall?  Say, perhaps Bloodraven?

If so perhaps this is a bit of an homage to LOTR.  Where Sauron with his one all seeing eye, has a secret ally in the wizard, Saruman who resides in a fortress, Isengarde which encircles a tall white tower, Orthanic.  Inside was holed up Saruman who used his crystal ball, which is perhaps a parallel to Lord Leyton using perhaps a valyrian candle to communicate as well.

On the other side, in F&B and HOTD, we have the Blacks.  Rhaenerya gives birth to three brown haired sons, allegedly by Harwin Strong.  And as we've discussed In german, Stark means Strong.  So perhaps, if Rhaegar did indeed sire Jon by Lyanna, we have an intentional call back there as well.  And of course Jon takes the Black, just like the "Strong" children of Rhaenerya are also referred to as the Blacks.

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2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I've been musing over HBO's HOTD, lately and I wonder if GRRM is trying to give us a hint about Hightower's role in the Song of Ice and Fire?

The bit from last night that made me think about this was 

  Hide contents

The part where Alicent grabs the valyrian dagger from King Viserys and tries to put out one of Rhaenerys' kids eyes with it.  Rhaenerya and Alicent wrestle over the dagger, and Rhaenerya looks at the dagger and I think you see a part of the runes shining through as they wrestle over it.  The runes that reference TPTWP prophecy.

So as we know from F&B, Aemond loses an eye, but gains a dragon.  The dragon later fights for House Hightower's side of the Greens.  Aemond later replaces his eye with a sapphire.  Which of course brings to mind the Others and their sapphire blue eyes.

In and of itself that doesn't mean much.  But we learn in the appendices that House Hightower has a history of magic in their background to include a dabbling of necromancy.  We also learn that Lord Hightower has holed himself up in his Hightower along with his witch daughter, where they are allegedly dabbling in sorcery.  I do wonder if that somehow coincides with the appearance of the White Walkers, north of the Wall.

The Hightower is also the only structure in the realm which is taller than the Wall.  Does this allow for House Hightower to communicate with someone north of the Wall?  Say, perhaps Bloodraven?

If so perhaps this is a bit of an homage to LOTR.  Where Sauron with his one all seeing eye, has a secret ally in the wizard, Saruman who resides in a fortress, Isengarde which encircles a tall white tower, Orthanic.  Inside was holed up Saruman who used his crystal ball, which is perhaps a parallel to Lord Leyton using perhaps a valyrian candle to communicate as well.

On the other side, in F&B and HOTD, we have the Blacks.  Rhaenerya gives birth to three brown haired sons, allegedly by Harwin Strong.  And as we've discussed In german, Stark means Strong.  So perhaps, if Rhaegar did indeed sire Jon by Lyanna, we have an intentional call back there as well.  And of course Jon takes the Black, just like the "Strong" children of Rhaenerya are also referred to as the Blacks.

Its an interesting proposition. The placement of the Starks at Winterfell does seem at odds sometimes. While they have been there for eons, the First Men didn't start out in the north when they first migrated to Westeros. According to the Wiki it states that Bran the Builder has connections to other legends that place him at both Storm's End and the Hightower (of House Hightower). The reference to that claim is The Reach, Oldtown in The World of Ice and Fire. If you think of Bran the Builder as one of the earliest First Men to migrate, it could make sense that he arrived near Storms End first, then down to the Reach and the Hightower, and then sent north in search of the Children. I don't know how many years apart those legends are supposed to be, but if he had a son also named Brandon, he could have learned from his father.

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Andals in the Reach

The Andals came late to the Reach.

Crossing the narrow sea in longships, they landed first upon the shores of the Vale, then later all along the eastern coasts. The fleets of Oldtown and the Arbor barred them from the Redwyne Straits and the Sunset Sea. Reports of the bounty of the Reach and the wealth and power of Highgarden and its kings undoubtedly reached the ears of many an Andal warlord, but other lands and other kings lay between them.

Thus, long before the Andals reached the Mander, the kings in Highgarden knew of their coming. They observed the fighting in the Vale, the stormlands, and the riverlands from afar, taking note of all that happened. Wiser perhaps than their counterparts from other regions, they did not make the error of allying with the Andals against local rivals. Gwayne IV (the Gods-fearing) sent his warriors searching out the children of the forest, in the hopes that the greenseers and their magic could halt the invaders. Mern II (the Mason) built a new curtain wall about Highgarden and commanded his lords bannermen to see to their own defenses. Mern III (the Madling) showered gold and honors on a woods witch who claimed that she could raise armies of the dead to throw the Andals back. Lord Redwyne built more ships, and Lord Hightower strengthened the walls of Oldtown.

 

Is this perhaps the origin of the Last Hero and his 12 friends?

An important (yet lost to history) battle took place at the Hightower.

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...The stony island where Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why?

 

The wildlings claim they were imprisoned beyond the Wall, because their ancestors refused to kneel. Was the Hightower the actual location?

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

The wooden palisades and ditch that had protected the city heretofore having so obviously been proved inadequate, the next King of the High Tower, Otho II, spent the best part of his reign surrounding Oldtown with massive stone walls, thicker and higher than any seen in Westeros to this point. This effort beggared the city for three generations, it is written, but such was their strength that later reavers and wouldbe conquerors were persuaded to seek for plunder elsewhere, and those who did presume to attack Oldtown did so to no avail.

It was not through war that the Hightowers were brought into the Kingdom of the Reach, however, but through long negotiations and marriage. When Lymond Hightower took to bride the daughter of King Garland II Gardener, whilst giving his own daughter's hand in marriage to her father, the Hightowers became bannermen to Highgarden, reduced from wealthy but relatively minor kings to the greatest lords of the Reach. (Oldtown was the last of the ancient realms to bend the knee to Highgarden, not long after the last King of the Arbor was lost at sea, allowing his cousin, King Meryn III Gardener, to make the isle part of his domain).

 

 

Is it possible that the Starks were First Men once loyal to House Hightower, but when the Hightowers bent the knee to Highgarden they had already left to search out the Children in hopes they could help stop the Andal invaders? Bran the Builder or his son Brandon, designed and built the mighty stone Hightower before leaving and headed north to search out the Children. He and his friends became known in history as the Last Hero and his 12 companions. He found the Children, but he was the last survivor and he stayed in the north and founded House Stark. The origins of the white walkers may actually be the Andals that stalked and preyed upon the First Men until they were either defeated or married into Andal families. Just a thought.

 

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

The reasons for the abandonment of the fortress and the fate of its builders, whoever they might have been, are likewise lost to us, but at some point we know that Battle Isle and its great stronghold came into the possession of the ancestors of House Hightower. Were they First Men, as most scholars believe today? Or did they mayhaps descend from the seafarers and traders who had settled at the top of Whispering Sound in earlier epochs, the men who came before the First Men? We cannot know.

When first glimpsed in the pages of history, the Hightowers are already kings, ruling Oldtown from Battle Isle. The first "high tower," the chroniclers tell us, was made of wood and rose some fifty feet above the ancient fortress that was its foundation. Neither it, nor the taller timber towers that followed in the centuries to come, were meant to be a dwelling; they were purely beacon towers, built to light a path for trading ships up the fog-shrouded waters of Whispering Sound. The early Hightowers lived amidst the gloomy halls, vaults, and chambers of the strange stone below. It was only with the building of the fifth tower, the first to be made entirely of stone, that the Hightower became a seat worthy of a great house. That tower, we are told, rose two hundredfeet above the harbor. Some say it was designed by Brandon the Builder, whilst others name his son, another Brandon; the king who demanded it, and paid for it, is remembered as Uthor of the High Tower.

 

 

 

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House Strong was an old house of Harrenhall.   Cregan Stark killed Larys Strong during the Dance of the Dragons. I wonder if HofD will show that? Harrenhall was next given to the Lothsons.

 

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@Melifeather

My suspicion that the Others of legend weren't the Ice Golems we've seen in the story.  I think they may be more akin to the legends of the Squishers down south.  Amphibious, creatures probably pale or white of skin, perhaps somewhat akin to the Deep Ones of Cthullu stories.

I think they may be responsible for some of the black stone obilisks we've seen around the coastlines, which would include the black foundation that the Hightower rests on.

I wonder if Battle Island refers to the battle where they were driven out by the First Men or some other roaming sea farers.

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17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

@Melifeather

My suspicion that the Others of legend weren't the Ice Golems we've seen in the story.  I think they may be more akin to the legends of the Squishers down south.  Amphibious, creatures probably pale or white of skin, perhaps somewhat akin to the Deep Ones of Cthullu stories.

I think they may be responsible for some of the black stone obilisks we've seen around the coastlines, which would include the black foundation that the Hightower rests on.

I wonder if Battle Island refers to the battle where they were driven out by the First Men or some other roaming sea farers.

I have a suspicion that the white walkers and wights of the current story are not the same beings/entities/creatures as the ones of old. I think they might be exaggerations and that the Others were actually just people and their actions were "monstrous" in the eyes of the conquerors. Its easier to justify the deaths of people if you view them as inhuman, sub-human, or monsters.

I think I recall reading someone's idea that Bran was creating white walkers and wights to fit the descriptions in the old stories that were told to him by Old Nan.

Edited by Melifeather
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48 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, that was mine.

Well, the details from the World book that I suggested would fit nicely with that theory as well as fit the inversion theory. In the ancient past the Others may have just been Andals and pushed the First Men north. Now its the other way around. The Others are living up to their monstrous description and they're pushing the First Men south.

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I am seeing anti-monarchists claim The Princess of Wales (Catherine) is like Alicent, and while I love my girl, this take feels uninspiring for some reason. BTW HotD making 

Spoiler

Laenor fake his death was a ridiculous decision, now Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage isn't legitimate and every Targaryen after them is a bastard

I was thinking about Reach myths about Garth and his children, I wonder if Tarly twins were really his sons, or was that myth just another version of Garth the Green and Grey King, since they shared a woman, did they have rivalry over her? 

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HotD made point about Aemond bonding with Vhagar after the death of his aunt Laena Valyrion (daughter of Rhaenys) - presumably denying one of her own offspring, Baela and Rhaena from bonding. Vhagar was a huge dragon that originally belonged to Visenya, sister-wife to Aegon the Conqueror. Aemond was the fourth rider to bond with the old dragon, but would the vacancy be so easy to fill just as long as the rider had Targaryen blood?

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46 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

HotD made point about Aemond bonding with Vhagar after the death of his aunt Laena Valyrion (daughter of Rhaenys) - presumably denying one of her own offspring, Baela and Rhaena from bonding. Vhagar was a huge dragon that originally belonged to Visenya, sister-wife to Aegon the Conqueror. Aemond was the fourth rider to bond with the old dragon, but would the vacancy be so easy to fill just as long as the rider had Targaryen blood?

They literally released this today. Its very interesting that they said dragons die when they simply get too big for the world. The older and bigger they get the harder it is for them to fly.

 

Edited by Melifeather
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19 hours ago, Melifeather said:

They literally released this today. Its very interesting that they said dragons die when they simply get too big for the world. The older and bigger they get the harder it is for them to fly.

 

It's a bit disappointing that magical creatures are limited by the laws of physics. Too fat to fly?

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5 hours ago, alienarea said:

It's a bit disappointing that magical creatures are limited by the laws of physics. Too fat to fly?

Not necessarily if its true, ie: comes from GRRM

It suggests that they are enlarged [inflated] by magic beyond their natural size

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20 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Not necessarily if its true, ie: comes from GRRM

It suggests that they are enlarged [inflated] by magic beyond their natural size

Finally, they would starve because they wouldn't catch enough food unless they are being fed.

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