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Heresy 244 Big Scaly Beasties with Bad Breath


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On 9/10/2022 at 6:35 AM, LynnS said:

Hey Feather! Hope you had a great summer - nice to see you back!

I'm inclined to think Aegon is the real deal also.  I can't see Rhaegar or Varys not taking steps to secure Aegon's safety. Especially with Aerys descending into madness.  Cersei even suggests doing the same with Tommen - dying his hair and hiding him in some Lord's house as a squire.  Ned suggests she take her children and skeedaddle to Essos.  So I don't think this is off the table.

Tyrion doesn't actually say that Young Griff isn't Aegon; only that he isn't Connington's son.  Griff does have Rhaegar's eye colour.  I'm also not buying Illyrio's act; that he loves the boy like a son.  I think Connington believes Aegon is Rhaegar's son.  Same with Septa Lemore.

Hi LynnS! I had a great summer but now I'm a bit sad that it seems to be coming to a close. This morning started out as a very chilly 42 degrees, but the tv weather people promise the heat is coming back - regardless - there's a very fall feeling in the air.

I've been reading alot of historical fiction in the last few months. I pressed through all 13 books of Bernard Cornwell's Saxon Stories, his 3 book Warlord series about Arthur, Merlin, and Excalibur, and have just started his Sharpe series. Cornwell spins a great yarn with very palatable history lessons along the way, but you will also stumble across the origins of many of the more striking GRRM inspirations for ASOIAF. I found myself checking to see when Cornwell published his books and when GRRM published his and then concluded that they must be both drawing from the same ancient historical events. Then just this weekend I watched The Outlaw King, which is about Robert the Bruce (Brus?) which many reviewers have stated is historically accurate. This is a long, round about way of getting to what reminded me of all this - that Robert killed John Comyn, which sounded quite a bit like Jon Con(nington) through my tv speakers. And of course Robert Baratheon was responsible for Jon Con's downfall.

Is anyone watching House of the Dragon on HBO? Last night's episode had young Rhaenyra running in the secret tunnels of the Red Keep dressed as a boy, even passing by the giant skull of Balerion the Black Dread. IMO it was such a strong nod to Arya that I wondered on the intent. 

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11 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Nah, not today. Oddly enough I actually come from near Balmoral, but not there today

Balmoral was viewed as QE's favorite place, was it not? 

I read that Elizabeth is descended from the House of Stewart on both sides so did the Scots have a special fondness for her?

She also claims descent of the ancient King Alfred of Wessex, a Saxon (which is a Germanic tribe - likely a blend of coastal Dutch, Danish, and German warrior people named for their distinctive weapon, the seax.)

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Is anyone watching House of the Dragon on HBO? Last night's episode had young Rhaenyra running in the secret tunnels of the Red Keep dressed as a boy, even passing by the giant skull of Balerion the Black Dread. IMO it was such a strong nod to Arya that I wondered on the intent. 

Woo Boy!  Last night's episode of HotD was ....Hot!  And just when I was I was starting to like Daemon, he had to go and do that!  And Rhaenyra !?!?!?  Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire!

Also, thanks for the book recommendations.  I must look out for those. :D

 

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10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Woo Boy!  Last night's episode of HotD was ....Hot!  And just when I was I was starting to like Daemon, he had to go and do that!  And Rhaenyra !?!?!?  Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire!

Also, thanks for the book recommendations.  I must look out for those. :D

 

Rhaenyra and Daemon didn't go all the way...she wanted to, but he stopped just short, but I think it was purposeful. I think he wanted to force his brother into allowing a marriage between the two to protect her reputation. Rhaenyra didn't lie, exactly. It wasn't Daemon that she lost her virginity to! lol

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I do have to say that I think House of the Dragon IS hammering home one of the big over arcing themes of ASOIAF and that is how eldest female heirs are blocked from their birthrights. Rhaenyra has already made her point to her father that if she were male she could have bastards all over the country and no one would think twice about it. I actually think that GRRM's end story of A Dream of Spring will be a female finally realizing/achieving the "dream" of ascending the throne with full support of her subjects - Sansa, Queen in the North, first of her name.

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Balmoral was viewed as QE's favorite place, was it not? 

I read that Elizabeth is descended from the House of Stewart on both sides so did the Scots have a special fondness for her?

She also claims descent of the ancient King Alfred of Wessex, a Saxon (which is a Germanic tribe - likely a blend of coastal Dutch, Danish, and German warrior people named for their distinctive weapon, the seax.)

Its horrendously complicated, but worth bearing in mind for its possible relevance to Westeros, so sit down quietly and pay attention. You may also want to take notes.

Her Majesty the late Queen was a direct descendant of King George I, Duke of Brunswick-Luneberg and Prince Elector of Hanover. [a German] His claim to the throne in 1714 was through his mother Sophia, who was herself a grand-daughter of King James VI of Scotland, [via Frederick of Bohemia], which is where the Stewart connection comes in.

However, while the new King, Charles III, has inherited the throne from his mother, his father was Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh. When living, the Duke was irreverently known as "Phil the Greek", due to being a sometime member of the Greek royal family, although just to complicate things further they were not ethnic Greeks, but were actually Danish!

Therefore, if you want to trace King Charles through the male line, he is of Danish descent and the family name was originally Gluckstein.

Now in Westerosi terms it really is a question of whether descent is accounted through the father or the mother. Some quite different results may arise

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Its horrendously complicated, but worth bearing in mind for its possible relevance to Westeros, so sit down quietly and pay attention. You may also want to take notes.

Her Majesty the late Queen was a direct descendant of King George I, Duke of Brunswick-Luneberg and Prince Elector of Hanover. [a German] His claim to the throne in 1714 was through his mother Sophia, who was herself a grand-daughter of King James VI of Scotland, [via Frederick of Bohemia], which is where the Stewart connection comes in.

However, while the new King, Charles III, has inherited the throne from his mother, his father was Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh. When living, the Duke was irreverently known as "Phil the Greek", due to being a sometime member of the Greek royal family, although just to complicate things further they were not ethnic Greeks, but were actually Danish!

Therefore, if you want to trace King Charles through the male line, he is of Danish descent and the family name was originally Gluckstein.

Now in Westerosi terms it really is a question of whether descent is accounted through the father or the mother. Some quite different results may arise

I don't see where the line of descent jumped from the House of Stewart to the House of Hanover. Somehow the royal line goes from Queen Anne to Sophia of Hanover.

As for Prince Phillip...Gluckstein or Glücksburg? Either way those Danes sound German to me!

 

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42 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I don't see where the line of descent jumped from the House of Stewart to the House of Hanover. Somehow the royal line goes from Queen Anne to Sophia of Hanover.

Politics and religion.

Queen Elizabeth died in 1603 leaving no children, so the English throne passed to James VI of Scotland who was a great-great grandson of Henry VII [via Henry VIII's sister Margaret] 

James VI was succeeded by Charles I, then his son Charles II, then James VII. The latter was very able, but a Catholic, so got kicked out in a coup and replaced by his Protestant daughter Mary. She died leaving no children so the throne passed to her younger sister Anne, also a Protestant. Anne's children died, so when she died in 1714 the choice was between James VII' son, James [a lamentable lack of imagination in naming children] or George of Brunswick-Luneberg/Hanover. George won because [a] he was Protestant, and [b] he got on the boat first. Some notable squabbling followed of course - the Jacobite Risings - but George and his descendants hung on to the throne

Of course I should have mentioned that although Queen Victoria was directly descended from George she married Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha [another German], so strictly speaking the late Queen Elizabeth follows 

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

 

As for Prince Phillip...Gluckstein or Glücksburg? Either way those Danes sound German to me!

 

Yes, Glücksburg, or more properly Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. Related to the Counts of Oldenburg, but that goes back to mediaeval times

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Woo Boy!  Last night's episode of HotD was ....Hot!  And just when I was I was starting to like Daemon, he had to go and do that!  And Rhaenyra !?!?!?  Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire!

Also, thanks for the book recommendations.  I must look out for those. :D

 

 

I would second @Melifeather recommendation on Bernard Cornwall's Arthurian Trilogy:  The Winter King, Enemy of God and Excalibur.  From a historical fiction perspective, the books tend to move along pretty quick.  While not as complex, nor welding as George's 800 plus page behemoths, Cornwall cranks out books pretty quick and doesn't really break a sweat as evidence of his Alfred the Great series, which was the basis for The Last Kingdom cable show.

Interestingly, the person who recommended Cornwall's trilogy was the same person who introduced me to GOT in 2011, which is when I joined "westeros".  This was also the same person who told me in 2011 that George had backed himself into a corner and would not be able to finish the books.  Alas, as a poor miserable Heretic I  continue to see the glass as 'half full'.

A quick tie into the current thread and the HotD series.  They keep flashing this curved blade made of Valyrian steel, which looks surprisingly like the blade that Arya used to slash Littlefingers throat in mummer's farce.  In last night's episode (and I'll try not and spoil this for anyone) the blade yielded a message when tossed into fire, much like Sauron's ring did in LoTR.  HotD does seem to fill in some blanks where the D&D series fell short (Iron Throne cutting those who sat, incest amongst the Targ's, etc.).

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1 minute ago, Mace Cooterian said:

A quick tie into the current thread and the HotD series.  They keep flashing this curved blade made of Valyrian steel, which looks surprisingly like the blade that Arya used to slash Littlefingers throat in mummer's farce.  In last night's episode (and I'll try not and spoil this for anyone) the blade yielded a message when tossed into fire, much like Sauron's ring did in LoTR.  HotD does seem to fill in some blanks where the D&D series fell short (Iron Throne cutting those who sat, incest amongst the Targ's, etc.).

Hello Mace!  Nice to hear from you!

It is indeed the same blade and I am somewhat puzzled.  Heating it in a brazier reveals some kind of writing about the Prince who is Promised coming from some bloodline or other.  Apparently, it has been magicked up in some way by pyromancers - something to do with fire.  Perhaps not your ordinary Valyrian blade.  I just can't see how it's supposed to pay off as a magic item in HotD.  Or how it's relevant to ASOIAF.  I'm not sure what is being suggested.

Some interesting stuff from Ryan Condal/George Martin about prophecy.  If you didn't see History of Westeros interview with him; it's worth watching.  Condal is well versed in the lore.  I'm not so sure about D&D.

I will recommend Wolf Hall series by Hilary Mantel.  Three books about the rise and fall of Oliver Cromwell.  Cromwell is the narrator of his own story.  Fantastic read!

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18 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

I would second @Melifeather recommendation on Bernard Cornwall's Arthurian Trilogy:  The Winter King, Enemy of God and Excalibur.  From a historical fiction perspective, the books tend to move along pretty quick.  While not as complex, nor welding as George's 800 plus page behemoths, Cornwall cranks out books pretty quick and doesn't really break a sweat as evidence of his Alfred the Great series, which was the basis for The Last Kingdom cable show.

Interestingly, the person who recommended Cornwall's trilogy was the same person who introduced me to GOT in 2011, which is when I joined "westeros".  This was also the same person who told me in 2011 that George had backed himself into a corner and would not be able to finish the books.  Alas, as a poor miserable Heretic I  continue to see the glass as 'half full'.

A quick tie into the current thread and the HotD series.  They keep flashing this curved blade made of Valyrian steel, which looks surprisingly like the blade that Arya used to slash Littlefingers throat in mummer's farce.  In last night's episode (and I'll try not and spoil this for anyone) the blade yielded a message when tossed into fire, much like Sauron's ring did in LoTR.  HotD does seem to fill in some blanks where the D&D series fell short (Iron Throne cutting those who sat, incest amongst the Targ's, etc.).

Isn't your profile pic of Merlin?

I really enjoyed Cornwall's version of Arthur and Merlin as told through the POV of warrior Derfel Cadarn whose name sounds familiar to me. I think its the last name, Cadarn...I wonder if I've also read that name in the Wheel of Time series?

Yes, the blade with the prophetic message. I was wondering where they pulled that from since, correct me if I'm wrong, it is not found in any of GRRM's books.

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20 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

I would second @Melifeather recommendation on Bernard Cornwall's Arthurian Trilogy:  The Winter King, Enemy of God and Excalibur. 

Excellent series and has a terrific ending. 

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I really enjoyed Cornwall's version of Arthur and Merlin as told through the POV of warrior Derfel Cadarn whose name sounds familiar to me.

A forum member uses this as his avatar's name. 

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16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Hello Mace!  Nice to hear from you!

It is indeed the same blade and I am somewhat puzzled.  Heating it in a brazier reveals some kind of writing about the Prince who is Promised coming from some bloodline or other.  Apparently, it has been magicked up in some way by pyromancers - something to do with fire.  Perhaps not your ordinary Valyrian blade.  I just can't see how it's supposed to pay off as a magic item in HotD.  Or how it's relevant to ASOIAF.  I'm not sure what is being suggested.

Some interesting stuff from Ryan Condal/George Martin about prophecy.  If you didn't see History of Westeros interview with him; it's worth watching.  Condal is well versed in the lore.  I'm not so sure about D&D.

I will recommend Wolf Hall series by Hilary Mantel.  Three books about the rise and fall of Oliver Cromwell.  Cromwell is the narrator of his own story.  Fantastic read!

I recall you mentioning this series before and I could have swore I've tried to read it before too, but got hung up on the writing?

Americans do get a short history of Oliver Cromwell in elementary school, but I think I've read more about him in the last year since delving so deeply into my mother's family's ancestry. They were Massachusetts colony Puritan settlers and Oliver Cromwell was also a Puritan. It's the extreme religious views that led to the execution of Charles the 1st. He was too sympathetic to the Catholics! Once the Puritans had power though they were worse dictators than any monarch.

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3 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Excellent series and has a terrific ending. 

A forum member uses this as his avatar's name. 

I tried searching "Cadarn" as a Wheel of Time character and the closest match ironically ties in with ASOIAF. Robert Jordan's main character, Rand al'Thor is The Dragon Reborn and known by the Aiel as the Car'a'carn which means He Who Comes with the Dawn.

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Speaking of the Scaly beasts, I do have a question regarding definitions.  Here is what I understand:

Firewyrms: are creatures that breathe fire but have no wings and are possibly related to dragons. They can bore through rock, soil, and stone.  “Possibly responsible for the 14 Flames of old Valyria”.

P.S.  There is an episode of Star Trek where they arrive on a mining colony and encounter a creature (silicon-based) that is responsible for the rock boring.  BTW..it’s called “The Devil in the Dark”.

Wyverns: are species of animal that lives in Sothoryos, kin to dragons, although they do not breathe fire.   Wyverns have great leathery wings, "cruel" beaks, and an insatiable hunger. They are more ferocious than dragons, if smaller in size.

Dragons:  are magical flying reptilian creatures, which existed on the continents of Westeros and Essos, but were considered to have been extinct for almost one hundred and fifty years.

(Edited to Add)  Striking out my last comment due to incoherency.

 

Edited by Mace Cooterian
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What I really wanted to ask is this…I understand that Wyverns & Firewyrms “might” be different from dragons.  Where in canon do we see the evolution of the two foresaid creatures evolve into dragon eggs that eventually have to be hatched by “fire magic”?

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