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Heresy 244 Big Scaly Beasties with Bad Breath


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8 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Speaking of the Scaly beasts, I do have a question regarding definitions.  Here is what I understand:

Firewyrms: are creatures that breathe fire but have no wings and are possibly related to dragons. They can bore through rock, soil, and stone.  “Possibly responsible for the 14 Flames of old Valyria”.

P.S.  There is an episode of Star Trek where they arrive on a mining colony and encounter a creature (silicon-based) that is responsible for the rock boring.  BTW..it’s called “The Devil in the Dark”.

Wyverns: are species of animal that lives in Sothoryos, kin to dragons, although they do not breathe fire.   Wyverns have great leathery wings, "cruel" beaks, and an insatiable hunger. They are more ferocious than dragons, if smaller in size.

Dragons:  are magical flying reptilian creatures, which existed on the continents of Westeros and Essos, but were considered to have been extinct for almost one hundred and fifty years.

Am I missing something, or do these three definitions seem to point away from each other?  In other words, how do we have dragons flying around, and possibly wyverns (or firewyrms) responsible for the fall of Valyria?

I thought wyverns are to dragons like crows are to ravens or coyotes are to wolves. They belong to the same genus - very similar, but smaller, and I think wyvern may have 4 legs while dragons have 2. 
 

As for the fall of Valyria, the Doom sounds volcanic in nature, but sort of like natural occurring events credited to magic.

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1 minute ago, Mace Cooterian said:

What I really wanted to ask is this…I understand that Wyverns & Firewyrms “might” be different from dragons.  Where in canon do we see the evolution of the two foresaid creatures evolve into dragon eggs that eventually have to be hatched by “fire magic”?

Actually English, Scottish, and Irish heraldry, since the sixteenth century, has dragons with 4 legs and wyverns 2. Other European heraldry and GRRMs dragons are 2-legged. 
 

Firewyrms breathe fire and can bore through rock and soil, but have no wings. 

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2 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

@Melifeather 2 or 4 legs aside, how do we get to stone cold dragon eggs that Dany hatches by walking into the funeral pyre?

I’m not sure it’s stipulated, but I imagine dragon eggs need very hot embers to hatch. The volcanoes are probably a good place to incubate them. The Targaryens must have kept the eggs cold until they could place a specific egg into their babies cradles to bond the child to the dragon before incubation. I think there’s a missing step that we haven’t read about.

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1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

I’m not sure it’s stipulated, but I imagine dragon eggs need very hot embers to hatch. The volcanoes are probably a good place to incubate them. The Targaryens must have kept the eggs cold until they could place a specific egg into their babies cradles to bond the child to the dragon before incubation. I think there’s a missing step that we haven’t read about.

I tend to agree, though I'm captured thinking of the scene from 'Alien' whereby the Xenomorph attaches itself to the 'host'.  Is it possible that the connection (host to servant) could be made through...dare I say it...."blood"?

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46 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Oh, and by the way.... @Melifeather if you are providing commentary on Westworld, please hit me up as I would enjoy reading our thoughts.

Have you read my previous season’s analysis’ over on HoBaW?
I have watched the most current season, but neglected to write up my thoughts for each episode. There was a 2-year gap between season 3 and 4, so It has been difficult for me to get back into the storyline. I’ll have to review what I’ve written in the past to see if I can get back inside my head!
Basically the viewer figures out that Westworld is in a time loop and that both hosts and humans exist in a simulation. It’s a commentary on how some real world scientists believe there’s a 50-50 chance that WE also live in a simulated reality. There seems to be geological evidence that civilizations rise and then destroy themselves every 10,000 years. Instead of a supreme being, Westworld has Dolores - a nod to the missing feminine goddess. 

Edited by Melifeather
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40 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

I tend to agree, though I'm captured thinking of the scene from 'Alien' whereby the Xenomorph attaches itself to the 'host'.  Is it possible that the connection (host to servant) could be made through...dare I say it...."blood"?

I have suggested before that Rhaella’s many miscarriages were actually attempts to hatch dragon eggs. Rhaegar survived a spectacular attempt at Summerhal. Ser Duncan lost his life after leading a pregnant Rhaella OUT to safety. Jorah Mormont repeated Dunk’s role in the repeat of the mummer’s farce, but inversely he carried a pregnant Daenerys INTO the tent.

Viserys was saved as a spare heir, and Daenerys only survived, because Aerys sent his wife to Dragonstone for safety. The rest of their offspring were sacrificed in the pursuit of dragons. And in my opinion that is how Daenerys is “child of three”. Aerys and Rhaella had three children that made it to adulthood, but Daenerys was the fulfillment of the woods witch prophecy of when the Targaryens would have dragons again, otherwise known as the prince that was promised.

Edited by Melifeather
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1 hour ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Speaking of the Scaly beasts, I do have a question regarding definitions.  Here is what I understand:

Firewyrms: are creatures that breathe fire but have no wings and are possibly related to dragons. They can bore through rock, soil, and stone.  “Possibly responsible for the 14 Flames of old Valyria”.

P.S.  There is an episode of Star Trek where they arrive on a mining colony and encounter a creature (silicon-based) that is responsible for the rock boring.  BTW..it’s called “The Devil in the Dark”.

Wyverns: are species of animal that lives in Sothoryos, kin to dragons, although they do not breathe fire.   Wyverns have great leathery wings, "cruel" beaks, and an insatiable hunger. They are more ferocious than dragons, if smaller in size.

Dragons:  are magical flying reptilian creatures, which existed on the continents of Westeros and Essos, but were considered to have been extinct for almost one hundred and fifty years.

(Edited to Add)  Striking out my last comment due to incoherency.

 

My answer to the riddle of the Valaryian Sphinx.   Firewryms and Wyverns are naturally occurring creatures, dragons are not.  Thousands of years ago, skinchangers took control of Firewyrms and Wyverns among other creatures.   They created a dragon by combining parts of the two, along with the mind and spirit of a human skinchanger. 

I can't find the quote, but GRRM was asked if we'd see anyone warg a dragon.   He didn't answer yes or no, but said there were things about dragons people have long forgotten making this much more difficult than skinchanging other creatures. 

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Speaking of living in a simulated reality and new civilizations every 10,000 years, mark your calendar for Monday, September 26 to watch live while NASA fires a “dart” at an asteroid in an attempt to get it to change direction. 
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/dart-sets-sights-on-asteroid-target

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Hi Mace, Welcome back :commie:

A possible answer to your question.

Being British I see some of these things in heraldic terms; as Feather notes above wyverns have two legs and wings, while dragons have four legs and wings. As wryms [worms/snakes] obviously have neither that would suggest a step by step evolutionary path with questions asked anent whether it is a natural evolution or a managed one.

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Returning to Feather's questions yesterday anent King Charles III there is as I suggested a direct parallel. Without digging into the very complicated past, Charles has gained the Throne through his mother, the late Queen Elizabeth rather than from his father Prince Philip.

In Westerosi terms it suggests that in terms of fate Jon Snow is primarily a son of Winterfell through his mother Lyanna Stark rather than anything his father [whether or not he was Rhaegar Targaryen] might bring to the mix

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In Westerosi terms it suggests that in terms of fate Jon Snow is primarily a son of Winterfell through his mother Lyanna Stark rather than anything his father [whether or not he was Rhaegar Targaryen] might bring to the mix

Ice or Fire, we know what chose him and what he chose, countless references in the text.

If his mother is Lyanna, paternity is of no matter in his choice or how the North perceives him. The rest have no shortage of heirs, pretenders or otherwise.

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43 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Ice or Fire, we know what chose him and what he chose, countless references in the text.

If his mother is Lyanna, paternity is of no matter in his choice or how the North perceives him. The rest have no shortage of heirs, pretenders or otherwise.

Oh there's long been pretty wide agreement among we miserable heretics that Jon's fate rests with Winterfell and Ice rather than with the Iron Throne and Fire. My post was entirely a matter of addressing Melifeather's questions anent real world succession :cool4:

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Oh there's long been pretty wide agreement among we miserable heretics that Jon's fate rests with Winterfell and Ice rather than with the Iron Throne and Fire. My post was entirely a matter of addressing Melifeather's questions anent real world succession :cool4:

Charles should be thankful that in this modern world the succession is through his mother. I think in more ancient times Elizabeth may have been passed over if a male heir were presented. 

While I agree with you that Jon Snow's future is dependent upon Winterfell and Ice, I do not agree that Lyanna is his mother, but I'm sure you're already aware that I think Ned really is Jon's father. I understand that I could be dead wrong about that, but I haven't seen any convincing evidence or argument up to this point.

Consider this, with the focus of the new House of the Dragon on the difficulties female heirs face, doesn't it shed a brighter light on this very issue on the entirety of ASOIAF? To me it seems like the use of women as "peace cows" and "pawns" for men to gain or secure power is the real theme of the story of Ice and Fire. Fire seems to be such a masculine force whereas Ice is feminine. The moon is a goddess, and the reason why the god of ice cannot be named is because "He Who Shall Not Be Named" is actually a SHE.

Jon is one of the main characters, but IMO he's not the most important character - his mother and all the females are: Ashara, Arianne, Daenerys, Sansa, and Arya. Jon's mother Ashara, gave up her identity rather than face the humiliation and degradation of a forced marriage beneath her station just because she wasn't a virgin. Like Rhaenyra in HotD stated to her father, if she were a man her desires wouldn't be a problem, that she could father a dozen bastard children and no one would care ... How angry men would be if the tables were turned and females were given primogeniture! Men would rather garner support behind a 2-year old Aegon II rather than a fully grown Rhaenyra for the sole reason that he is male. 

The Dream of Spring is the return of the goddess and making women equal to men in all things. THAT is what would bring true balance into the world.

Edited by Melifeather
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3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

...Jon is one of the main characters, but IMO he's not the most important character - his mother and all the females are: Ashara, Arianne, Daenerys, Sansa, and Arya. Jon's mother Ashara, gave up her identity rather than face the humiliation and degradation of a forced marriage beneath her station just because she wasn't a virgin. Like Rhaenyra in HotD stated to her father, if she were a man her desires wouldn't be a problem, that she could father a dozen bastard children and no one would care ... How angry men would be if the tables were turned and females were given primogeniture! Men would rather garner support behind a 2-year old Aegon II rather than a fully grown Rhaenyra for the sole reason that he is male. 

The Dream of Spring is the return of the goddess and making women equal to men in all things. THAT is what would bring true balance into the world.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least and if I'm right about Jon's next step, then Sansa is indeed destined to be the next Lady of Winterfell

There is of course another precedent going slightly further back in that Bael's son became Lord of Winterfell through his mother. 

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It wouldn't surprise me in the least and if I'm right about Jon's next step, then Sansa is indeed destined to be the next Lady of Winterfell

There is of course another precedent going slightly further back in that Bael's son became Lord of Winterfell through his mother. 

Yes, the baby swap as well as Bael are important details in our story and a review of the following is actually the foundation for my belief that Jon is not Lyanna's child.

The assumed baby swap of Rhaegar's (false Bael) and Elia's child parallels the swap of Mance's (Bael's) son. At the same time it demonstrates that, not only is Rhaegar not Jon's father, neither is Lyanna his mother:

Now - Lord Commander Jon Snow
Then - Former Lord Commander Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers

Now - North of the Wall
Then - South in Kings Landing

Now - Mance Raydar (Bael) - King Beyond the Wall
Then - Rhaegar Targaryen (false Bael) - the presumptive heir

Now - Craster was Gilly's father and husband, and Monster's true father
Then - Rickard Stark was Lyanna's father, but not Jon's father

Now - Monster's mother was Gilly (Craster's daughter)
Then - Jon's mother was "Wylla" (not Rickard's daughter) 

Now - (Bael) Mance’s son Monster
Then - (false Bael) Rhaegar’s son Aegon

Now - Gilly’s son was not a bastard, yet a child of incest
Then - Wylla’s (Ashara) son was not a child of incest, yet he is a bastard

Now - Samwell Tarly claims paternity of Bael's Monster, but he's not the father
Then - Ned Stark claims paternity of Jon, and he is the true father. False Bael is not Jon's father.

Now - Sam takes Bael's child (who was swapped for Gilly's son) to his father's home - safe away from the Wall and Melisandre's desire to sacrifice a king's son.
Then - Ned takes his own child to his father's home while false Bael's (Rhaegar) son was swapped for the Pisswater Prince and taken away to safety.

Edited by Melifeather
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9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Hi Mace, Welcome back :commie:

A possible answer to your question.

Being British I see some of these things in heraldic terms; as Feather notes above wyverns have two legs and wings, while dragons have four legs and wings. As wryms [worms/snakes] obviously have neither that would suggest a step by step evolutionary path with questions asked anent whether it is a natural evolution or a managed one.

Thanks BC.  Really didn't go anywhere and have just been lurking in the shadows.  It has been pleasantly civil here on your Heresy threads for several months now and that has been a welcomed respite.

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11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Being British I see some of these things in heraldic terms;

Is there a difference between heraldric devices and sigils?

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

"What of it, Jon?"

"You have five trueborn children," Jon said. "Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord."

 

Quote

 

A sigil (/ˈsɪəl/; pl. sigilla or sigils) is a type of symbol used in magic. The term has usually referred to a type of pictorial signature of a deity or spirit. In modern usage, especially in the context of chaos magic, 

In medieval magic, the term sigil was commonly used to refer to occult signs which represented various angels and demons which the practitioner might summon.[1] 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigil

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13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The Dream of Spring is the return of the goddess and making women equal to men in all things. THAT is what would bring true balance into the world.

Much as we'd all love that, its too idealistic and utopian. Hell, even now there exists sexist inequalities. Maybe if Dany doesn't end up a mad tyrant...

I think its just what it is, winter wont end with the series, gonna be long and hard, its the dream of spring that will take the people through the hardest times ever.

Edited by TheLastWolf
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