Jump to content

Heresy 244 Big Scaly Beasties with Bad Breath


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

HofD is making a little fuss about this blade and the HBO version of AGoT used the same blade and had Bran give it to Arya. It might be an indication that it will show up in the books...at least I don't recall reading about such a blade that reveals words when heated.

 

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's the same prop, apparently.  Surely Ryan Condan knows how it was used in both the book and the show.  Bookwise, I'd say Robert ended up with it as part of the Targaryen property after the Rebellion.  Which is how Joffrey ended up with it.  I doubt it was ever Tyrion's property or Littlefinger's property.  Although, he took advantage of everyone's ignorance to claim it for himself.  He's the last person in the chain of custody.  Sansa getting her hands on it could be something GRRM decides to write into the books.

Not sure if the castle made of snow is Winterfell or the second waycastle (called Snow) at the Eyrie.

clearly HOTD showrunners want to have some connection to GoT . the whole prince that was promised thing that they have put in the show is a silly attempt to connect the shows. although Aegon's vision could be accurate in the books in some form or another, I personally doubt the dagger has any new importance to it . it's not a blade that passes hand to hand to get to Arya ,the Nights king slayer, who didn't need any help from Targaryens by the way !  it's a plain looking Valyrian dagger. it's richly enough that makes Starks wonder about its origin but not so clearly luxurious that someone like Joff or the catspaw know its price.  and Robert won it from LittleFinger . he didn't inherit it through Targaryen armory. I believe the dagger is now more of a symbol of deceit in the books . the last time it showed up was when LF was talking to Sansa about (I think) Joff's murder, an event not unlike Bran's murder attempt . in both, sons are targeted , in both mothers think Tyrion is behind it , in both they are completely clueless about who is truly behind it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

and Robert won it from LittleFinger

He did? i missed that completely. I thought Littlefinger said he won it off of Tyrion, who bet against Jaimie in some contest or other.  At least this is what he tells Catelyn.  Tyrion later tells her it's a lie because he never bets against his brother.  He doesn't say whether the dagger was his or not.  If it belonged to Littlefinger, then I'm puzzled as to  how it came into Robert's possession, in order for Joffrey to take it.  It seems to me Robert had it all along.  Spoils of war.

Yah, I'm not really sure if it's significant that the dagger shows up in HotD with an origin story.  But I can see it being passed down to heirs apparent until Robert got his hands on it.  Do you think GRRM knew the showrunners were going to use it in this way?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

He did? i missed that completely. I thought Littlefinger said he won it off of Tyrion, who bet against Jaimie in some contest or other.  At least this is what he tells Catelyn.  Tyrion later tells her it's a lie because he never bets against his brother.  He doesn't say whether the dagger was his or not.  If it belonged to Littlefinger, then I'm puzzled as to  how it came into Robert's possession, in order for Joffrey to take it.  It seems to me Robert had it all along.  Spoils of war.

Yah, I'm not really sure if it's significant that the dagger shows up in HotD with an origin story.  But I can see it being passed down to heirs apparent until Robert got his hands on it.  Do you think GRRM knew the showrunners were going to use it in this way?

as far as I remember , in one of Jaimie chapters he thinks about the drunken king Robert who bet against Jaimie and the dagger that was passed from LF to Robert . he then goes on to think about how Joffrey's role .

yeah , he had read the scripts .

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The dagger's significance in the books is to figure out who wanted Bran assassinated.   I haven't really figured it out myself, although Littlefinger is my prime suspect.   It is an odd choice of weapon, why hire an assassin and give him such an expensive weapon?

Grrm is involved in HOD, so I doubt it would take on so much significance for the show if it isn't important in the books.   However, the books talk about a Lightbringer sword, so this has to end up the central legendary weapon. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holy Moley!  What the hell happened at the wedding, in last night's episode?  Besides all hell breaking loose. Who were the armored men who entered during the dancing and did they let in the rabble?  That happened so fast it was chaos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The dagger's significance in the books is to figure out who wanted Bran assassinated.   I haven't really figured it out myself, although Littlefinger is my prime suspect.   It is an odd choice of weapon, why hire an assassin and give him such an expensive weapon?

I think its a an obvious matter of misdirection

The assassin, whether or not he succeeded, was clearly doomed, therefore it was important that his weapon pointed to someone

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's the same prop, apparently.  Surely Ryan Condan knows how it was used in both the book and the show.  Bookwise, I'd say Robert ended up with it as part of the Targaryen property after the Rebellion.  Which is how Joffrey ended up with it.  I doubt it was ever Tyrion's property or Littlefinger's property.  Although, he took advantage of everyone's ignorance to claim it for himself.  He's the last person in the chain of custody.  Sansa getting her hands on it could be something GRRM decides to write into the books.

Not sure if the castle made of snow is Winterfell or the second waycastle (called Snow) at the Eyrie.

I kind of doubt that George is going to integrate it in the books.  GRRM seems to make it clear that the books and the shows have seperate "canon".  He did make a point, however, of saying that the different HBO shows should have the same cannon, which probably explains why they are doubling down on the valyrian dagger in HOTD.

It's kind of an easy cheat to get into the prophecy and lore without getting bogged down in details of the book.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think its a an obvious matter of misdirection

The assassin, whether or not he succeeded, was clearly doomed, therefore it was important that his weapon pointed to someone

My pet theory is that the valyrian dagger with the dragonbone hilt is GRRM's take on the Greek tale of Cadmus sowing the dragon's teeth to make his army.  Think of the dagger as the dragon's tooth.

In the Cadmus tale, Cadmus slays a dragon and then plants the dragon's teeth in the ground and up springs  a large number of armed persons.  Cadmus then throws a jewel or stone in the midst of this mass of people, who then fight over it.  The survivors become Cadmus' army.

Thus "sowing the dragon's teeth" has become a phrase to mean sowing discord.

In the books, Littlefinger uses the Valyrian dagger for his own purpose to sow discord between the Starks and Lannisters presumably for his own benefit.  Thus even though he doesn't have an army of his own, he coopts the armies of the Starks and Lannisters by pitting them against each other.

My suspicion is that the assassination attempt on Bran might have been a similar ploy by another "Baelish" character.

We learn that Mance travelled to Winterfell with a bag of silver, where he joins up with the King's procession.  We also later learn through Val, of the wildlings fairly harsh beliefs of dealing with children afflicted with grey scale.  The basic thought is that putting them out of their misery is considered a mercy.

So perhaps Mance decided that putting Bran out of his misery would be a "mercy".  And he did it in a way that he thought would pit the Stag vs the Direwolf, and in so doing would turn Ned's attention away from him and towards the South.

Perhaps Mance overheard Robert's drunken rant on Bran being better of dead, or perhaps that idea just came from his own time with the Wildlings.  Either way, my guess is Mance broke into the King's weelhouse and took the most valuable dagger in the King's collection, assuming it would easily be traced to Robert.  Mance just failed to realize that Robert only used a hunting knife gifted to him from Jon Arryn.

Mance gives the Valyrian dagger to the catspaw along with a bag of silver and convinces him that killing Bran would be a mercy.  My assumption is that the Mance believed that whether or not the catspaw is successful, the use of the valyrian blade would cast suspicion on the Baratheons and turn Stark vs the Crown, which would then prevent the Starks from hindering his plans on bringing his wildling horde south of the Wall.

Edited by Frey family reunion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's the same prop, apparently.  Surely Ryan Condan knows how it was used in both the book and the show.  Bookwise, I'd say Robert ended up with it as part of the Targaryen property after the Rebellion.  Which is how Joffrey ended up with it.  I doubt it was ever Tyrion's property or Littlefinger's property.  Although, he took advantage of everyone's ignorance to claim it for himself.  He's the last person in the chain of custody.  Sansa getting her hands on it could be something GRRM decides to write into the books.

Not sure if the castle made of snow is Winterfell or the second waycastle (called Snow) at the Eyrie.

I suppose the secret of the blade is a future reveal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 

clearly HOTD showrunners want to have some connection to GoT . the whole prince that was promised thing that they have put in the show is a silly attempt to connect the shows. although Aegon's vision could be accurate in the books in some form or another, I personally doubt the dagger has any new importance to it . it's not a blade that passes hand to hand to get to Arya ,the Nights king slayer, who didn't need any help from Targaryens by the way !  it's a plain looking Valyrian dagger. it's richly enough that makes Starks wonder about its origin but not so clearly luxurious that someone like Joff or the catspaw know its price.  and Robert won it from LittleFinger . he didn't inherit it through Targaryen armory. I believe the dagger is now more of a symbol of deceit in the books . the last time it showed up was when LF was talking to Sansa about (I think) Joff's murder, an event not unlike Bran's murder attempt . in both, sons are targeted , in both mothers think Tyrion is behind it , in both they are completely clueless about who is truly behind it. 

 

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

He did? i missed that completely. I thought Littlefinger said he won it off of Tyrion, who bet against Jaimie in some contest or other.  At least this is what he tells Catelyn.  Tyrion later tells her it's a lie because he never bets against his brother.  He doesn't say whether the dagger was his or not.  If it belonged to Littlefinger, then I'm puzzled as to  how it came into Robert's possession, in order for Joffrey to take it.  It seems to me Robert had it all along.  Spoils of war.

Yah, I'm not really sure if it's significant that the dagger shows up in HotD with an origin story.  But I can see it being passed down to heirs apparent until Robert got his hands on it.  Do you think GRRM knew the showrunners were going to use it in this way?

Yes, the wiki says King Robert won the blade from Petyr during the tourney held on Prince Joffrey's name day. References are A World of Ice and Fire entry on Petyr Baelish, Catelyn IV chapter 18, and Catelyn VII chapter 55.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Holy Moley!  What the hell happened at the wedding, in last night's episode?  Besides all hell breaking loose. Who were the armored men who entered during the dancing and did they let in the rabble?  That happened so fast it was chaos.

I haven't had a chance to watch the latest episode. I'll circle back and give you my thoughts about this scene later.

51 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I kind of doubt that George is going to integrate it in the books.  GRRM seems to make it clear that the books and the shows have seperate "canon".  He did make a point, however, of saying that the different HBO shows should have the same cannon, which probably explains why they are doubling down on the valyrian dagger in HOTD.

It's kind of an easy cheat to get into the prophecy and lore without getting bogged down in details of the book.  

I think we all forget that the show jumped ahead of the books and that this dagger may continue to play an important part other than simply being the blade that the catspaw used on Bran. The important thing to note is, who has it now? I seem to recall that Catelyn brought it with her to Kings Landing and this is how Petyr got his hands on it again. It's implied in the text that Petyr uses this same dagger to cut fruit while talking to Sansa about truth and lies and hidden plots. (Sansa VI chapter 68)

Edited by Melifeather
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think we all forget that the show jumped ahead of the books and that this dagger may continue to play an important part other than simply being the blade that the catspaw used on Bran.

You say “jumped ahead” I say “went completely off the rails”.  Regardless I really don’t see the books going in that direction. The show is treating TPTWP prophecy as being some deeply held Targaryen secret.  But according to the books it seems that Aemon just assumes that Melisandre is aware of the prophecy and has no trouble talking about it in front of “outsiders”.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You say “jumped ahead” I say “went completely off the rails”.  Regardless I really don’t see the books going in that direction. The show is treating TPTWP prophecy as being some deeply held Targaryen secret.  But according to the books it seems that Aemon just assumes that Melisandre is aware of the prophecy and has no trouble talking about it in front of “outsiders”.

I agree. When Aemon [Targaryen as was] talks to Mel, she spouts the Azor Ahai stuff and he responds that she's talking about the Battle for the Dawn. The clear implication is that he knows about it and links it into common Westerosi mythology and that they are one and the same - not a Targaryen family secret.

The only family secret he appears to reference is when he insists that Jon Snow must take command of the Wall, because he is a son of Winterfell and it must be him or none.

Idly digressing, of course, if R+L=J was true and meant what the Faithful claim, this would be the time for Aemon to reveal all - but instead he sends Jon in a different direction

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

You say “jumped ahead” I say “went completely off the rails”.  Regardless I really don’t see the books going in that direction. The show is treating TPTWP prophecy as being some deeply held Targaryen secret.  But according to the books it seems that Aemon just assumes that Melisandre is aware of the prophecy and has no trouble talking about it in front of “outsiders”.

Granted the show told its own story, and I do expect a different one if and when Winds is published, but I still think this dagger will continue to come up and play into a reveal of some sort. I really don't see a conflict, and it could very well be that its existence may be necessary as a plot device to explain the difference between the Essos prophecy and Azor Ahai versus the return of White Walkers and possibly a new Nights King. It does seem like the reader needs some clarification in the text to clear up the confusion - especially since Melisandre is at the Wall looking for Azor Ahai. 

Edited by Melifeather
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Melisandre is at the Wall looking for Azor Ahai"

Mel [rapturously on seeing Jon Snow walk in]: "My Lord! You are truly Azor Ahai come again to light the fire..."

Jon [flashing his blue eyes] "Not today, My Lady..."

Edited by Black Crow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Holy Moley!  What the hell happened at the wedding, in last night's episode?  Besides all hell breaking loose. Who were the armored men who entered during the dancing and did they let in the rabble?  That happened so fast it was chaos.

Okay I've watched the episode and I think you misunderstood what happened. Joffrey Lonmouth - aka Laenor's boyfriend - illuminated, shall we say, Criston Cole of the newly proposed marital arrangement that Rhaenyra and Laenor agreed to. It pissed Criston Cole off and he beat the ever loving shit out of Joffrey's face. Seemed like an over reaction, but we're supposed to understand that his guilt over breaking his vow of celibacy and then Rhaenyra's refusal to marry him was the source of his shame and jealous fury.

Edited by Melifeather
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Okay I've watched the episode and I think you misunderstood what happened. Joffrey Lonmouth - aka Laenor's boyfriend - illuminated, shall we say, Criston Cole of the newly proposed marital arrangement that Rhaenyra and Laenor agreed to. It pissed Criston Cole off and he beat the ever loving shit out of Joffrey's face. Seemed like an over reaction, but we're supposed to understand that his guilt over breaking his vow of celibacy and then Rhaenyra's refusal to marry him was the source of his shame and jealous fury.

The ending was a bit confusing.  My take was that Cole saw Joffrey as a potential threat to Rhaenyra via his black mail attempt so he decided to kill him and then end his own life.  Of course if he wanted to keep Rhaenyra's secret, maybe he shouldn't have confessed to Alicent so quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The ending was a bit confusing.  My take was that Cole saw Joffrey as a potential threat to Rhaenyra via his black mail attempt so he decided to kill him and then end his own life.  Of course if he wanted to keep Rhaenyra's secret, maybe he shouldn't have confessed to Alicent so quickly.

The only thing confusing to me was how violently he reacted to Joffrey Lonmouth's - you say "blackmail", - but to me it was more like a misguided attempt at intimacy - a pact, even. Joffrey proposed a pact that would protect them all: Rhaenyra, Laenor, Criston, and Joffrey.

Criston Cole is supposed to be one of those rare honorable knights that take their vows very seriously and to the extreme. The situation is sort of like a far-right preacher that gets caught in a sex scandal, but rather than face public humiliation, Criston was ready to commit suicide.

Rhaenyra didn't even have to work all that hard to get him to break his vows, but the marriage proposal was - at least to him - a way to salvage his honor. It would turn it into something romantic. It was foolish, but it was also selfish, and I think it actually highlighted Criston's inflated ego. He definitely thought he was better than others and he didn't want his broken vows to become public knowledge.

Criston was deeply ashamed that Joffrey,  not only knew that Criston had broken his vow of celibacy and honor, but then also tried to pull him into a 4-way relationship where two of the four were also homosexual lovers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...