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[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion


Ran
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1 hour ago, briantw said:

This season appears to be all about setting the stage for the conflicts of the next few seasons.  We're getting introduced to all the players, all their petty rivalries and grievances, and pieces are being put in motion to oppose each other down the line.  Much like the first season of Game of Thrones set up the War of the Five Kings and everything else that followed.

The difference being, imo, that the first season/book of Game of Thrones only appears as complete set up in retrospect. Martin and the show writers do a great job of getting you to care about the conflicts and characters of the first book/season, and you're tricked into viewing these conflicts as being the main plot in their own right. Once Ned Stark's head is off and Drogo has been neutralized and you start realizing that this series isn't going the way that you thought, you're already invested in the characters and want to see where they're going next. Tyrion is going to be Hand! Dany has dragons! Jon's going north of the wall!

In jumping ahead from major plot beat to major plot beat, and skipping over years at a time, the set-up in House of Dragons has felt (to me and mostly everyone I know watching) much less organic. In this way, it's like Game of Thrones seasons 7-8, but even faster and with characters we don't know yet! The show hasn't taken the time to let you know the majority of the characters, aside from what their immediate political goals are. Now, we're still early days, but this is something that does worry me if each episode jumps ahead in time. Will we be invested in the characters before civil war comes? Will we understand who they are and what motivates them, aside from their political goals? Will we care who wins or loses? With Viserys and Rhaenyra and maybe Daemon, the answer will be yes (but, of course, Viserys will be dead, and I say this as someone who hasn't read this part of Fire and Blood). With everyone else, if they keep to their current approach, not so much.

Edited by Caligula_K3
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Again, I feel like all three episodes have been exactly solid. There are no amazing hights and no terrible lows, IMO. Which is fine for now, but I hope that things pick up in later episodes.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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11 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think the idea that the Triarchy was winning the war makes much sense. The crab men were holed in in the caves.

Was the idea of the Martells winning the First Dornish War realistic? Or the Viet Cong? Or the Ewoks?

 

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  • Wine from Lannisport? Take that horsepiss away from me. I'll only accept Dornish red or Arbor Gold.

Honeyed wine doesn't even pair well with venison or pork. What was he thinking?

 

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Prince Aegon should NOT be addressed as the "Second of his name". Not only because he hasn't been named heir, but because Viserys is still alive! This style is only reserved to riling kings. 

Come now ser, it was only an idle jape. Let the tongues wag: it will not change the succession.

Edited by The Dragon Demands
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12 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

For whatever reason, GRRM left her out of all the conflicts pre-Dance entirely.

Are you sure?

I thought Rhaenys and Laenor both participated in the War for the Stepstones...and that Laena was indirectly involved as well which is how she bonded with Daemon.

On second thought, I could've sworn the whole Velaryon family fought in the War for the Stepstones.

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Are you sure?

I thought Rhaenys and Laenor both participated in the War for the Stepstones...and that Laena was indirectly involved as well which is how she bonded with Daemon.

On second thought, I could've sworn the whole Velaryon family fought in the War for the Stepstones.

Corlys was the only Velaryon involved in the Stepstones campaign in the book.

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58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, I think the symbolism stuff was more Otto grasping at straws. Viserys himself never talks about the hart symbolism. He just feels conflicted about things because of his earlier dream, because he finally has what he always thought he wanted ... but he knows that he already has the heir he wants with Rhaenyra.

They mention in the after the show crap that Viserys is acting all weird when he sees the hart because he's relieved it isn't white..but also a bit disappointed.  The show clearly establishes that this is his biggest moment of doubt between the drunken conversation the night before with Alicent and him admitting to Rhaenyra in their later conversation that he had a moment of doubt and now regrets it.

My take is that, yeah, his feelings of doubt have been lingering for quite a while - which makes sense if Rhaenyra had been behaving like this for two whole years.  His frustrations are also demonstrated by the opening scenes at the Red Keep and the carriage ride, as well as publicly blowing up at Rhaenyra earlier in the day, and the white hart symbolism combined with the drinking prompted him to confront this to himself and confide in Alicent.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

His best moments there are when he makes it clear that Rhaenyra wasn't named heir on a whim. Back then he was kind of pushed into it by the circumstances ... but he always loved his daughter very much, and even more so after her mother died thanks to his desire for a son, so there is actually no real chance that he would ever change his mind on that question.

Agreed.  Again, thus far they're making Viserys much more sympathetic and understandable than how he's portrayed (or at least how I interpreted him) in the books - and I'm very much enjoying that.

On Viserys not admonishing Hightower but blowing up at Lannister - I think this makes sense from simply a court decorum/etiquette perspective.  If someone just yells it out in a moment of celebration and Viserys goes off on them he kinda comes off as a dick, but Jason is literally assuming Viserys has already changed his mind in a public audience with the king, which would piss me off too and warrant a rebuke.  

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7 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Corlys was the only Velaryon involved in the Stepstones campaign in the book.

yeah... but it would have been hell of a good idea to see all Velaryons in the war . because on one hand, both Laena* and Vhaegar needed their moment before she dies and Vhaegar turns into Aemond's roasting machine and on the other hand, we needed to see Rhaenys and Maelys in action before their fall against Aegon and Aemond . then again , even Laenor and Seasmoke moments were lost . 

 

*whilst watching Daemon's .. err.. issues , did anyone think why on earth would the adorable Laena from previous episode ever consider marrying him?!

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10 hours ago, briantw said:

I appreciate the way that Viserys keeps trying to do right by his family and it's constantly interpreted by them as petty politicking.  He sends help because Alicent legitimately convinces him that it's the right thing to do, but all Daemon can see is the attempt to upstage him.  Similarly, he's pressuring his daughter to marry in order to solidify her claim, but she sees it as his attempt to ship her off and get her out of the way.

You're absolutely right.

But the reason why it gets played out this way is because Viserys is a bad communicator who is almost allergic to any sort of conflict.

He doesn't talk to anyone about anything: not his feelings, not his desires, not his needs, not his responsibilities, not welfare of the realm, nor the welfare of his family, etc. And when he does talk, it's when he's been cornered and he ends up talking in circles. The few times that he has spoken openly and directly all happen to be times where he is angry.

 

I thought Matt Smith played the hell out of scene where he reads the message sent from King's Landing. You can tell that it's the approval and acceptance that he so craves but that he hates being upstaged on both a personal and political/professional level. It was very bittersweet. Matt Smith made it so that Daemon looked like he was on the verge of weeping, smiling and cursing.

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6 minutes ago, DMC said:

They mention in the after the show crap that Viserys is acting all weird when he sees the hart because he's relieved it isn't white..but also a bit disappointed.  The show clearly establishes that this is his biggest moment of doubt between the drunken conversation the night before with Alicent and him admitting to Rhaenyra in their later conversation that he had a moment of doubt and now regrets it.

Yes, Viserys kind of bought into the hart symbolism after Otto talked about it ... but it is nothing he came up with. He kind of went along with it because of his own doubts, but it is not that he was so superstitious that he would change the succession only on such a portent. He only gives meaning to this because of his own doubts.

And the whole thing about a white hart in the Kingswood being an ancient symbol of kingship plays in so nicely with the Durrandon sigil. That was pretty great, actually.

I'm not sure it was such a great decision to make him so conflicted about that ... but the book has Viserys hope for a son by Aemma, too, so that's not really diversion. Although the dream business made it more important.

I'm not sure the father-daughter don't talk/understand each other is such a great plot. Rhaenyra and Viserys are physically apart later on, so it should have been great to start things with them being very close early on only for them to drift apart somewhat with the whole Daemon-Criston thing as well as the forced Laenor match.

After all, Viserys sticking to Rhaenyra as the heir until the bitter end only makes sense, I think, if loved her very much, felt very close to her, etc. If he ever had gotten the impression the girl was too willful, emotional, unsuited for the throne it would have been so easy to change his mind.

Must say I also enjoyed Otto's original reluctance in forcing the issue. He knows Viserys well enough to understand how far he can go without meeting resistance. You also see this in the way how he arranged Alicent's wedding. No push, just a subtle suggestions and all. He knows he can only lose when going head-to-head with Viserys over something he truly cares about.

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

My take is that, yeah, his feelings of doubt have been lingering for quite a while - which makes sense if Rhaenyra had been behaving like this for two whole years.  His frustrations are also demonstrated by the opening scenes at the Red Keep and the carriage ride, as well as publicly blowing up at Rhaenyra earlier in the day, and the white hart symbolism combined with the drinking prompted him to confront this to himself and confide in Alicent.

I liked Rhaenyra behaving like girl in puberty, feeling out of place and unwanted and all that. But one really feels that crucial stuff there is missing - after all, as heir she should have been part of the council now, having a say in the government of the Realm.

I think there should have been another episode covering the royal wedding, and then Alicent's subsequent pregancy and eventually Aegon's birth. Such an episode could have done much for the Alicent-Rhaenyra relationship as well as to fully establish Rhaenyra as the Heir Apparent prior to the birth of her half-brother. And there could have been a great scene, say, with Rhaenyra and Criston where she cracks down and shows her fears about being replaced once Aegon is born ... while earlier showing a brave face.

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Agreed.  Again, thus far they're making Viserys much more sympathetic and understandable than how he's portrayed (or at least how I interpreted him) in the books - and I'm very much enjoying that.

I think quite a few of the aspects they came up with show Viserys you can easily enough transfer to the book guy - interest in history, interest in Valyria, etc. The whole prophecy thing regarding Aegon is another case, but as portrayed the characters go pretty much together.

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

On Viserys not admonishing Hightower but blowing up at Lannister - I think this makes sense from simply a court decorum/etiquette perspective.  If someone just yells it out in a moment of celebration and Viserys goes off on them he kinda comes off as a dick, but Jason is literally assuming Viserys has already changed his mind in a public audience with the king, which would piss me off too and warrant a rebuke.  

Jason really comes across as a stupid dick there, very much in line with the fact that not all Lannisters were as smart or cunning as Tywin and Tyrion ... but most of them have their arrogance and entitlement. And one imagines that the kind of Aegon celebration there slowly build on Viserys - the guy does misjudge the motivations of certain people, but he is not stupid. And he really doesn't like it when people show that they think he'll do as they please. Or that they can completely predict what he is going to do.

39 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

You're absolutely right.

But the reason why it gets played out this way is because Viserys is a bad communicator who is almost allergic to any sort of conflict.

He doesn't talk to anyone about anything: not his feelings, not his desires, not his needs, not his responsibilities, not welfare of the realm, nor the welfare of his family, etc. And when he does talk, it's when he's been cornered and he ends up talking in circles. The few times that he has spoken openly and directly all happen to be times where he is angry.

I get that about the conflict stuff. But Viserys apparently repeatedly talked to Rhaenyra about marriage stuff ... and it is incredibly odd that this didn't went like 'Let's find you a strong and loyal prince consort to father my grandsons and help you govern the Realm as queen regnant'. It is kind of obvious that such conversations would have gone like that ... and not the 'well, I'm looking for some great lord to dump you to while I name the Conqueror babe heir in your stead' way.

39 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I thought Matt Smith played the hell out of scene where he reads the message sent from King's Landing. You can tell that it's the approval and acceptance that he so craves but that he hates being upstaged on both a personal and political/professional level. It was very bittersweet. Matt Smith made it so that Daemon looked like he was on the verge of weeping, smiling and cursing.

Yes, I didn't get that the first time around. The guy wants so much to prove that he can be like the Conqueror, too.

53 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yeah... but it would have been hell of a good idea to see all Velaryons in the war . because on one hand, both Laena* and Vhaegar needed their moment before she dies and Vhaegar turns into Aemond's roasting machine and on the other hand, we needed to see Rhaenys and Maelys in action before their fall against Aegon and Aemond . then again , even Laenor and Seasmoke moments were lost . 

That Laenor was at the war council was revealed ages ago - which is why I thought they would also have Rhaenys there, at least. Completely odd that she wouldn't be there considering that her dragon might well be as large or larger than Caraxes.

If Laena has already mounted Vhagar at this point she should also have been there, of course. Or at least the gang should have called on their help rather than begging Viserys for help. Having more dragonriders than the Triarchy would expect could easily enough help them defeat them.

But I must say the war as such does make sense. It kind of resemble the War of the Ninepenny Kings - taking and holding those islands is tedious business, and while two dragons help with that, they won't help you to get troops on the ground if you don't control the waters. And they lack sufficient strength for sea to do that. Two dragons are also not enough to actually patrol all the Stepstones and try to burn all the ships of the Triarchy. They move around, and Daemon/Laenor cannot fly all the time. In fact, one imagines that a dragonrider would kill himself pretty quickly if her were doing shifts atop the dragon lasting more than eight hours for weeks on end.

1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

@Ran

Hey is "Ciera Lannister" supposed to be mother of Jason & Tyland, and wife of Tymond?

I imagine she is either their mother or grandmother - and due to the Cersei-like name likely a Lannister cousin wife in the fashion of Joanna rather than originally a daughter of another (Westerlands) house.

Lady Redwyne would likely be some Reach woman who married into the house.

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I didn't like how they explained everything in a minute of diologue (several times). I would rather have seen it and heard it. Surely they can create a season-finale climax/resolution/next step without rushing it along like they are.

Almost like they either know Fire and Blood 2 will be out soon, or they know they will outpace the George and aren't willing to play Patty Cake about it.

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Ah, I’m glad to see the discussion hasn’t grown too long. HotD airs at 2am here in the UK and by the time I’ve watched it on Monday there isn’t much else worth saying.

I might blame my reception of this episode on RedTeamReview, who opined that it would be people’s favourite episode of the season. I was so perplexed by this take I had to check a couple times to make sure I wasn’t watching the wrong episode. Perhaps on a rewatch I’ll appreciate it more.

That said, I found it supremely disappointing, and it made the first two episodes worse in hindsight. They’d built up the Crabfeeder just to watch him stare out of a cave and die off-screen. Corlys’s ominous alliance with Daemon resulted in… nothing of interest. We raced through plot points in the first two episodes and then got an episode where nothing really happened. I’d hoped for some more development of Rhaenyra’s relationship with Criston, and that we’d get to know Laenor better. We saw some interesting development in Rhaenyra’s character in the first two episodes just to see her regress into a bratty teen. Now I’m worried about how the rest of the season will manage to cram everything in. 

The first two episodes were unusual in that we’d sometimes follow the same character through multiple consecutive scenes. I understood that as a limit on the scope of the narrative, but here they followed the same pattern without purpose. Harwin’s suggestion of Laenor as a consort for Rhaenyra was a perfect opportunity to cut to Laenor. By the time he does show up, I expect many show-only watchers will have forgotten who he is. 
 

The preview trailer for the episode suggested that the Battle of the Stepstones would be a significant part. I didn’t expect that I’d already seen 90% of the too-brief battle from various promo videos. Seasmoke’s scenes had already been shown, I believe, in their entirety, through three separate promotional videos. Not to mention Matt Smith’s tiresome arrow-proof plot armour.

I’ve generally found the reception of the first two episodes to lean towards the overly negative on this forum, but this was just so disappointing. I’m perplexed, and somewhat envious, at the people who think it was great.

Hopefully the show will pick up. I love the story of the Dance, but it’s just falling short for me right now. I’ve sometimes taken comfort in the idea that the show has to make some narrative and pacing sacrifices to get through the pre-Dance years, but at the end of the day there really is no excuse for mediocrity. 
 

I’d disagreed with the opinion that the show should’ve taken two seasons to get to the Dance, but I’m beginning to think it could really benefit from taking longer to develop characters and their relationships. Alicent’s changing relationship with Viserys and Rhaenyra has moved too quickly for me so far. Interspersing the development of the Targaryens with some introduction to Cregan Stark, Jeyne Arryn and other players in the Dance would’ve been to the shows credit, I think. 

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, Viserys kind of bought into the hart symbolism after Otto talked about it ... but it is nothing he came up with. He kind of went along with it because of his own doubts, but it is not that he was so superstitious that he would change the succession only on such a portent. He only gives meaning to this because of his own doubts.

Well, no, of course he didn't come up with it and, again, I agree he latches onto it because of his own lingering doubts.  Other than that you're basically arguing with the guys who wrote and directed the episode at this point.

Definitely agree that it'd be nice if the show didn't depict Viserys and Rhaenyra basically always at loggerheads once he names her heir.  The reasoning for such in both episodes make sense, but if they keep this up all season it will really make viewers wonder why the hell he didn't change his mind.

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think quite a few of the aspects they came up with show Viserys you can easily enough transfer to the book guy - interest in history, interest in Valyria, etc. The whole prophecy thing regarding Aegon is another case, but as portrayed the characters go pretty much together.

Yeah, sure it still all fits.  The way I'd put it is a lot of book Viserys is a blank canvas that the show has filled in quite well thus far.

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