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[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion


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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Here’s a weird omission: Aegon’s dragon. There was no mention of whether he was given an egg or if it hatched.

Didn't notice that, but it is an omission. We could have seen his cradle eggs or perhaps even a very little Sunfyre hanging out in his cradle.

After rewatching I realized I liked certain little details - how Viserys is first a fan of the hunt and Rhaenyra doesn't like the sound of dying boars ... but when pushed you see who is the true steel and who isn't.

In regards to that - Harwin having great fun looking at the bloodied Rhaenyra can certainly foreshadow that these two will understand each other on a deeper level.

It seems the hunting party was basically the proto-Green crowd. Otto implies as much when he talks to Alicent in the end since it was a feast thrown specifically for young Aegon. A coterie of lords the Hightowers have good connections with. That could also explain why Jason Lannister thought Rhaenyra as his wife would no longer be the heir.

One does notice that despite this being a hunt in the Kingswood the Baratheons are nowhere to be seen.

The plump woman who says something at the table of the ladies seems to Lord Hightower's wife - and she does look somewhat flaggergasted when her (apparent) husband hails 'the Conqueror babe'. A nice touch indicating that the good Lord Hightower may have gone a little far there.

Also like Otto's still measured approach. He understands that Viserys may not want to change his mind, so the whole Rhaenyra-Aegon betrothal idea is no power grab thing but an attempt to keep the family together. Come to think of it he should have suggested it to Rhaenyra directly as a measure so she can postpone her marriage almost indefinitely. Alicent could easily enough provide sufficient spares until Aegon and Rhaenyra can have children of their own.

Although I think his final Green propaganda speech is clearly driven more by ambition for his family - and the command given to him by his elder brother - than his actual take on things. After all, he never had that view when it was Daemon vs. Rhaenyra.

The battle scene works pretty well for me. You can easily imagine that Daemon fucked with those Triarchy guys and Drahar especially so much over the last couple of years that they are willing risk much just get their hands on him. And the guy is wary that dragons might attack ... but the bait is just too much.

24 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

 Daemon solo's action act was contrived and smacked a bit too much of Jon Snow at the BoB. The archers on the cliffs shouldn't have been firing volleys on command, but actually just aim at him at will. However, it got better once Daemon actually got hit by arrows. Corlys fighting with a bardiche was maybe the highlight for me in that battle. Too bad we didn't see Rhaenys on the dragon. I thought that was her that initially fired up the archers on the cliff, but afterwards it seemed it was only Laenor. 

Honestly, in rewatching this looked like they intentionally redid the 'the action hero runs away from machine gun fire' stunt. Only with arrows. Since Daemon is a kind of action hero for sure, I actually enjoyed that.

Build-up for the Targaryen-Velaryons actually having dragons was missing. If we had already known that Rhaenys is a dragonrider it would be easier to swallow that her son is, too.

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Although I think his final Green propaganda speech is clearly driven more by ambition for his family - and the command given to him by his elder brother - than his actual take on things. After all, he never had that view when it was Daemon vs. Rhaenyra.

I think there's a good argument that Otto is taking orders from HIS brother who makes it clear what his marching orders are: get my grand nephew on the throne.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That in combination with the rotting issue is pretty telling. She certainly loved to hate Rhaenyra, etc. more than she ever loved Viserys. And it is not the other way around since Rhaenyra does not, in fact, execute Alicent when she could have.

Pretty sure that will be a big issue. I mean, there were lots and lots of pretty big issues in the early reign of Jaehaerys I, no? Or during Maegor's reign? And we had no idea about any of that prior to FaB. Aegon III's reign could be full of rebellions and civil wars that we know nothing about so far, and they could have significant repercussions (Queen Daenaera, about whose ultimate fate we know nothing, could be murdered, for instance). It stands to reason that not only Alys' son will make trouble for Aegon III but also the fake Daerons we already heard about in a footnote. Aegon III will be an unpopular king, unlike Daeron I or Baelor the Blessed, so it stands that his reign will be troubled and his very kingship will be challenged on more than one occasion.

He will prevail eventually with the help of his brother, his half-sisters, his cousin Alyn Velaryon, and other friends he has. But it might be a close thing.

We have to wait and see, however you must keep in mind what it means to be an anointed king in this world. Cregan Stark avenged the death of his mortal enemy, Aegon II, because he was an anointed king and didn't deserve to be murdered by his own men. Tyland Lannister may have had similar feelings about Aegon III becoming his monarch after he had been crowned and anointed and his house had sworn fealty to him (as Lady Johanna did).

I guess the Jason in the show isn't that smart of a guy - the books have Tymond Lannister as a drunkard, so there are quite a few unimpressive specimens there, and in the book Jason is neither particularly courageous nor effective. We can imagine that he spend too much time drinking with Lord Hightower and his cronies before talking to Viserys.

In context, one should also not forget that (book) Casterly Rock and Lannisport are, in the end, much more impressive seats than KL and the Red Keep. A not-so-smart Lord of Casterly Rock might prefer it to stay there and have a Targaryen princess as a trophy wife than to go to KL and miss all the comforts of his seat.

Those Lannisters have always lived like kings.

But it would certainly have been smarter to have a Lannister suitor of Rhaenyra's declare his eternal loyalty to her cause and her right to the throne only to be then pissed and nasty once she rejected him. Although I must say that this Rhaenyra likely would have been quite receptive to a proposal of a great lord supporting her claim and being eager to one day seat his own son by Rhaenyra on the Iron Throne.

There the show doesn't seem to deliver ... and this is also something many readers don't seem to get. An heiress - be it to a lordship or a crown - is a great thing for all the nobility who have a chance to marry her. It is their way to possibly gain royal power themselves ... while marrying their sisters or daughters to a king only means that those women end up wearing crowns but not they themselves.

One can only hope they are not racing through things from season 2 on since the thing is apparently reasonably successful at this point. The dragonseeds need some building up, Daeron, and the Hightower army, too. And if they want to show the actual Dance as a war everywhere in the Seven Kingdoms, there needs to be considerable focus on the Riverlanders. We have to care for them and the Westermen both to give a damn about the Fishfeed and the Butcher's Ball.

I think your breakdown could easily work if they had covered Baelon's death, the Great Council, and Viserys' early reign in 2-3 episodes to then later better flesh out Laenor and Laena and the Strong boys.

As finale one could have a great personal arc involving Rhaenyra being torn between remaining the heir and the feelings she has for Criston Cole and other men. There was potential there for her being so fed up with the court intrigue business that running away may have actually looked like a nice idea for a time.

To have some kind of bigger clash there could have been a secret murder plot/dragon theft thing going on involving one of Saera's bastards who could have been involved in the Triarchy war business.

The second season could have been dealt with the romances and the plots to dominate the court while Viserys' health declined. And, of course, to properly flesh out all the children, including Daeron, who will be absent from the show's first season.

From what we have heard it seems that

  Reveal hidden contents

Aemond starts out sympathetic whereas Aegon will be an ass.

I hope Aegon gets a kind of failed emancipation story - always under the thumb of his mother he ends up freeing himself from her ... only to get badly burned and later crippled so that he never is his own man for long, never mind that he wears a crown. But I'm looking forward to him putting Otto in his place.

There is great irony there in Otto trying to keep Daemon away from the throne while having no such desire for his own grandson ... although that guy is even less suited for the throne than Daemon.

Yes, they could go with something like that ... although even that shouldn't have stopped the Hightowers from imprisoning both Maegor and Visenya once they were stupid enough to land in Oldtown in 43 AC. No dragon ever run amok while his or her rider was imprisoned (e.g. Dreamfyre).

However, I'd like to see the show play this as Daemon flying alone to Harrenhal circling the castle a few times, doing a little show of force, and then just landing in the middle of a large garrison goading them into attacking him ... and them instead backing down although they clearly had the upper hand.

By the end, Alicent probably wished that Rhaenyra had executed her.  Stuck in a cell, and no doubt hearing of the murder of her last grandchild, was a bad end.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

By the end, Alicent probably wished that Rhaenyra had executed her.  Stuck in a cell, and no doubt hearing of the murder of her last grandchild, was a bad end.

Luckily she outlived Jaehaera. But that’s little comfort to three dead sons, two dead grandsons, and one dead daughter.

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3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

- Is Viserys supposed to be sick, drunk, depressed, tortured... ?

Drunk.  And depressed.  Tortured is a little much, but open to interpretation.

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

The whole hart thing was weird. I did think the Hightowers had brought the animal there on purpose... Since they apparently didn't, I'm not too sure what meaning it's supposed to have. In a world where magic does exist, no answer seems obvious: let's remember that the first episode of GoT used animals prophetically... But in this case, it seems Rhaenyra should not have seen it.

Well, as mentioned Condal and Yaitanes do explain Viserys' obsession with the hart in the after-the-show crap.  Essentially Otto's hope didn't pan out and that had an effect on Viserys. 

As for the white hart actually encountering Rhaenyra and her refusing to try to kill it - again I think, and as CT Phipps mentioned, that's a clear statement on the showrunners' behalf on who they favor in the wars to come.

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

The boar attack felt weird, because Cole is the one who stops it, but he doesn't immediately help Rhaenyra from under it.

I didn't get the impression she needed help at that point - he'd already stabbed it through its torso and it was laying there dying.  Rhaenyra's subsequent stabbing was clearly venting which..is extreme, but Fire & Blood y'all.

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

but why introduce an interesting antagonist (crab-guy) to kill him off-screen?

Was he really an interesting antagonist?

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Fortunately, Millie Alcock steals a few scenes

A thousand times yes.

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58 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think there's a good argument that Otto is taking orders from HIS brother who makes it clear what his marching orders are: get my grand nephew on the throne.

That is one of my favorite additions the show has done so far. Include Otto's brother, cast a reasonably old looking guy so it fits when he dies before the Dance, and make it clear that he is actually the head of House Hightower, not Ser With A Nameless Elder Brother, like in the books.

I think they must/should go with the book plot there and have Lord Hightower die before the Dance, so that Otto/Alicent can kind of set themselves up as 'the senior branch' of the family due to their experience and station. Lord Ormund isn't that old in the Dance, considering his eldest son is still fifteen after the war is over.

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5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

come to think of it , Vhaegar kills 2 of the dragons she may have had as mates during the dance : Caraxes and Maelys . you know , Maelys was Alyssa's dragon and Vhaegar was Baelon's .... 

Especially strange that Daemon is bonded enough to be able to bring Vhagar with him somehow without Laena and yet some years later he's enemy.

Many black fans were furious about "ugly" casting with greens being good looking. Seeing Harwin they must be delighted now. I completely missed him while watching though. I didnt know twin Lannister is same actor either. I think i saw him in some Viking show? Face looks familiar.

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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Luckily she outlived Jaehaera. But that’s little comfort to three dead sons, two dead grandsons, and one dead daughter.

Her fate reminds me a bit of Margaret of Anjou, in The White Queen.  Like Alicent, she’s lost her son and her cause is in ruins.

Edward IV tells her she’ll be confined to the Tower, but she won’t be executed.  She replies “and what if I want you to ?”  He comes back “especially if you want me to.”

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Re: 2 seasons to set up the dance

There may need to be 2 seasons of material shown before the Dance starts. But no watcher would have the patience to wait for 2 seasons for the basic premise to kick in (especially with such long years between each season). That scenario would fail similar to how American Gods failed. The much hyped war between the gods was delayed and delayed and delayed until it never really happened. 

But the bigger problem lies with the source material. Dance is never properly narrated as a novella or a novel. It is just part of a collection of dry, often contradictory historical accounts. It does not have a beginning or an end. It does not have proper cast with definitive roles (main characters, side characters etc.) It does not have a proper, optimal dramatization. In short, it is not a “story” yet. The first task of the writers is to turn it into a narrative, starting with where to begin. Just like writing history, the historian can't start writing from the Big Bang. Only after we have a proper narrative, we can talk about what is necessary to set it up properly.

Just as I expected, the script so far suffers because of this. There are awkward jumps, lots of characters whose necessity in the story is questionable (even though they are cutting many characters), some events that may turn out to be utterly redundant and so on. The basic premise is still not clear. The hook is absent (unless you count the Aegon's dream retcon as the hook). If the source material was written as a proper story, there would be a clear beginning and an end, there would be a proper hook, the timeline would be condensed, the characters would be merged and consolidated, the plot and sub plots would have no gaps etc.

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18 hours ago, Mithras said:

The time skips in this show are more like episode skips. As if there was actually another episode between this one and the previous one which we didn't see.

Something that bugs me a bit is that they never showed Rhaenyra asking Viserys to make Criston Cole her sworn shield. I know there was a time skip, but it feels like Criston became her personal bodyguard as soon as he was appointed to the Kingsguard.

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6 hours ago, DMC said:

As for the white hart actually encountering Rhaenyra and her refusing to try to kill it - again I think, and as CT Phipps mentioned, that's a clear statement on the showrunners' behalf on who they favor in the wars to come.

I don't want to spend too long on this - it's rather subjective stuff.
My point would be that any form of "omen" with supernatural vibes opens up a bad can of worms. Because if the "Gods" (or destiny, or whatever) clearly favor one protagonist, then why do things then go horribly wrong? If the Gods themselves sent an omen to Rhaenyra, why did Aegon eventually win the Dance?
In order for that to work, either Rhaenyra then loses the Gods' favor (which has to be shown in some way imho), or the Greens need a power of their own (magical or equivalent).
In other words, you start with a simple hart, and you end up validating the grand maester conspiracy :rolleyes:. 'tis why i said I wasn't sure about the meaning, because I don't know how far the showrunners have thought this one through, and/or whether the George himself has validated this in some form. Depending on their plans it could mean very little (Rhaenyra herself is just overthinking the symbolism), or a lot (it will affect the show's entire narrative).

6 hours ago, DMC said:

I didn't get the impression she needed help at that point - he'd already stabbed it through its torso and it was laying there dying.  Rhaenyra's subsequent stabbing was clearly venting which..is extreme, but Fire & Blood y'all.

I may be nitpicking here, but imho Cole should have helped Rhaenyra immediately after stabbing the boar.
For starters, he nearly stabs her as well (so either he's insanely good, or not so much), but anyway she's his primary concern: obviously as a Kingsguard he needs to make sure she's perfectly fine (even a bad scratch on her face would be disastrous for him). Unless he's grievously wounded (which is not clear), he should immediately check on her and/or finish the animal to make absolutely sure she isn't harmed.

Point is: it's a bit of a plot convenience that she has to finish it herself. Sure, maybe he's wounded, but then that should have been made clearer imho. Like, do we see him limping or something in the following scenes? Not IIRC. Anyway, nitpicking.

6 hours ago, DMC said:

Was he really an interesting antagonist?

Not really tbh. :P
I dunno, the whole battle felt off, and yet I find it difficult to articulate my criticism of it.

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On 9/5/2022 at 10:18 AM, DMC said:

Daemon certainly behaved wantonly - and as briantw just said, clearly because he preferred death to being bailed out by his brother, which totally fits the character - but they established using him as bait as a battle tactic during the war council, or at least Vaemond did.  To me that makes it fundamentally different than Jon's charge during the Battle of the Bastards (which never bothered me nearly as much as apparently most of you).

Wasn't it Laenor who suggested the idea of sending someone as bait, with Vaemond asking who would possibly be willing to take such a risk? Laenor then said Daemon would, which was countered with a sneer by Vaemond, and Laenor calling his uncle 'Master of Complaints' (which I loved). 

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I just can't believe the viewership for episode 3 had 150% more than the premiere. I can't accept that, call me a flat earther but I just don't have the intellectual or emotional capacity to comprehend that. 

Anyways, here is a mainstream youtuber with a slightly negative review on episode 3: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJqUFRIroAU

 

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2 hours ago, Rippounet said:


I dunno, the whole battle felt off, and yet I find it difficult to articulate my criticism of it.

For me it was: 

1. The amount of time that had passed between Corlys and Daemon forming an alliance and what we watched in episode 3: years of a stalemate when one side has 2 dragons seems utterly contrived. Yes, the Crabfeeder and co. retreated into the caves but there must have been other ways to defeat them? Block all entrances and starve them out, for instance, as I doubt they had indefinite supplies? And a myriad of other options, I'd reckon 

2. I did like using the 'surrender/truce' gambit to illustrate Daemon's recklessness and idiot courage, though. As others have said, it's very much of a piece with his last stand; it's who he is. In the same vein I think the entire scene was more about that and the fact that he'd rather die than accept help from Viserys, than to make sure we saw him kill the Crabfeeder (who looked really ill and weak anyway).  And they probably wanted to have the dramatic re-emergence of Daemon from the cave with the lovely sight of a man's torso and entrails on display 

3. I really liked what we saw of Laenor and especially his excitement whilst on Seasmoke, but I think it wasn't clear at all for non-readers. I've seen so many reviews that seem confused, as well as viewers asking how/why Laenor could ride a dragon, and whether he was riding Caraxes. This should've been much clearer. 

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48 minutes ago, Crixus said:

I really liked what we saw of Laenor and especially his excitement whilst on Seasmoke, but I think it wasn't clear at all for non-readers. I've seen so many reviews that seem confused, as well as viewers asking how/why Laenor could ride a dragon, and whether he was riding Caraxes. This should've been much clearer. 

I truly don't know what the show gains by omitting the fact that the Velaryons can and will ride dragons too. Whenever Strong pushes Viserys to marry his line to the Velaryons, the fact that they can claim the source of power of the Targaryens should come up too every once in a while... 

But I really like what they are doing with Laenor so far, I hope that we can see his relationship with Joffrey, if only for half an hour. Laenor and the Velaryons are far more active than in the books, where Rhaenyra, Corlys and Daemon ran the show.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

My point would be that any form of "omen" with supernatural vibes opens up a bad can of worms. Because if the "Gods" (or destiny, or whatever) clearly favor one protagonist, then why do things then go horribly wrong?

Oh, yeah, I view it as isolated to how it impacts Viserys.  I don't look at as anything akin to Quaithe or even Mel in asoiaf - it's just a fanciful thing for Westerosi dudebros and Viserys is drunk enough to buy into it for a moment.  Outside the universe, like I said, I do think it's an indication of the showrunners' biases. 

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I may be nitpicking here, but imho Cole should have helped Rhaenyra immediately after stabbing the boar.

Ideally sure, but I think the sequence is a bit unclear there.  She may have started going all Arya on the boar before Cole had a chance to finish it off.

1 hour ago, Crixus said:

Wasn't it Laenor who suggested the idea of sending someone as bait, with Vaemond asking who would possibly be willing to take such a risk? Laenor then said Daemon would, which was countered with a sneer by Vaemond, and Laenor calling his uncle 'Master of Complaints' (which I loved). 

Yep, totally flubbed that one, thanks.

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