[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion

[The Bard of Banefort]

Hey, whatever happened to Bret Lannister? Wasn’t he supposed to make an appearance?

[Mithras]

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Rhaenyra won the war but the sexism of the Westeros culture marks her as a usurper.

I mean, this is wrong. The show keeps saying that the Lords of Westeros would never suffer a woman on the Iron Throne. Nevermind the fact that half of them will fight for Rhaenyra till the bitter end and then some. The same is true for the books. GRRM back in the day wrote this king list where Aegon II is counted as the king and he has no choice but to roll with it. But it doesn't make sense why the blacks won the war but still consider Aegon II as the official king. It is not like Maegor who did a lot of uncontested ruling that it is hard to ignore him.

[DMC]

40 minutes ago, Mithras said:

But it doesn't make sense why the blacks won the war but still consider Aegon II as the official king. It is not like Maegor who did a lot of uncontested ruling that it is hard to ignore him.

...Wait, so you're telling me you agree with LV?  Man things have changed over the years...

[Farerb]

The way I see it, and perhaps I'm wrong, but the reason they fought for Rhaenyra was because of an oath they or their fathers made, but they are all pretty much unanimous that Viserys naming Rhaenyra his heir was a mistake, and in order not to repeat such a thing in the future, they agreed that Aegon II will be the one that is counted and not Rhaenyra. As for why Aegon III is the successor, well that's because his claim doesn't just come from Rhaenyra, but from Daemon as well.

[C.T. Phipps]

52 minutes ago, Mithras said:

I mean, this is wrong. The show keeps saying that the Lords of Westeros would never suffer a woman on the Iron Throne. Nevermind the fact that half of them will fight for Rhaenyra till the bitter end and then some. The same is true for the books. GRRM back in the day wrote this king list where Aegon II is counted as the king and he has no choice but to roll with it. But it doesn't make sense why the blacks won the war but still consider Aegon II as the official king. It is not like Maegor who did a lot of uncontested ruling that it is hard to ignore him.

1. I mean we have the fact that Rhaenyra's gender clearly played a not-inconsiderable role in the usurpation of Aegon II having any success whatsoever. Even if the show is exaggerating for dramatic effect, the fact remains that the primary reason there was a revolt in the first place is because half of them revolted against their rightful sovereign over issues of male over female inheritance.

2. I think George, even then, knew what he was doing. Part of what is clear in the various interpretations of the Dance is that it remains an incredibly controversial period of Westeros history. However, while the "Blacks win" that doesn't detract from the fact it was a Pyrrhic victory for everyone involved. As we know from Stannis (even if he's exaggerating), Rhaenyra's reputation was horrifically blackened post-Dance and no one would ever write of their legitimate queen they did in the books as they do of her.

3. I should point out that Master Glyndan's histories are written for Robert Baratheon and his immediate heirs. Whether or not they won in the immediate era, we have the reign as it stands the test of time to measure it against. Certainly, the establishment has a vested interest in considering her a usurper.

[C.T. Phipps]

14 minutes ago, farerb said:

The way I see it, and perhaps I'm wrong, but the reason they fought for Rhaenyra was because of an oath they or their fathers made, but they are all pretty much unanimous that Viserys naming Rhaenyra his heir was a mistake, and in order not to repeat such a thing in the future, they agreed that Aegon II will be the one that is counted and not Rhaenyra. As for why Aegon III is the successor, well that's because his claim doesn't just come from Rhaenyra, but from Daemon as well.

Hell, it doesn't even matter because he is the closest male relative of Aegon II, which is part of why Aegon II was assassinated. His own followers viewed Aegon III as his heir over his own daughter. It's why Aegon II threatening to send Aegon III in pieces to the "rebels" was so horrifying to them. It's also why, I suspect, Corys knew he had to act because his own children were on the block as well.

As I explained it to a friend of mine, the Dance of the Dragon ends on a horrific irony:

"The Blacks win because they have the only male heir remaining while the Greens lose because they have a female heir to rally behind."

Edited September 8, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[DMC]

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It's also why, I suspect, Corys knew he had to act because his own children were on the block as well.

Well, grandchildren (as well as I suppose bastard children), but yeah this is a very important point that doesn't get mentioned nearly as much as it should.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 hours ago, Mithras said:

I mean, this is wrong. The show keeps saying that the Lords of Westeros would never suffer a woman on the Iron Throne. Nevermind the fact that half of them will fight for Rhaenyra till the bitter end and then some. 

Including house Dustin. (!)

Edited September 8, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[frenin]

17 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The first time they wrote an anti-Green book, would be the first time the Hightowers of Oldtown would dump them in a bag of rats in the bay.

The Hightowers remain the rulers of Oldtown at the end of the Dance.

Eh... Kings have far more leeway than that.

Aegon the younger does call his mother the rightful queen anyway and Waters betraying her is a reasn why he distrusts him, we do not know what Viserys thought but Aegon's views are pretty clear on that.

And again, whereas Daemon is a justification the fandom usually uses for why Aegon is crowned with the Green's blessing, it's never one used in the books. Aegon is crowned because the Blacks win the war, perhaps if the Greens war and find themselves forced between choosing Aegon or Jaehara, thry opt for the former but as it stands, they were never given that option. The Blacks were always going to crown Rhaenyra's heir, had Aegon died they'd have crown the twin with the dragon and call it a day.

 

16 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I’m sorry but Criston Cole has said all of three sentences this whole time and has had zero characterization. 

In the books he's just a great knight who's really into Rhaenyra, till they fell apart. Once they part is when his characterization really starts. Ditto, I'll assume with the show.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by frenin

[Gertrude]

On 9/5/2022 at 11:38 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Again, I feel like all three episodes have been exactly solid. There are no amazing hights and no terrible lows, IMO. Which is fine for now, but I hope that things pick up in later episodes.

This is exactly how I feel. They are good and enjoyable to watch, but I haven't been grabbed yet.

[Lord Varys]

Regarding the Rhaenyra issue:

Guys if you take Gyldayn's history as the standard, the way the average Targaryen history looks like in Westeros, then Rhaenyra simply should be on any official kings list because her status as a monarch is affirmed in that history (unlike, you know, the status of Aegon the Uncrowned who is a pretender and presented as such).

This is the discrepancy we are talking about.

Gyldayn and Yandel both name Rhaenyra queen during the time she is styled queen by her followers (after her coronation on Dragonstone) and while she actually sits the Iron Throne. Even after Rhaenyra runs away she isn't demoted to princess.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Hey, whatever happened to Bret Lannister? Wasn’t he supposed to make an appearance?

I heard about such a character, too, but I'm pleased we never saw him since 'Bret Lannister' is just a stupid made-up name. I guess or expect folks confused him with Jason Lannister (it would also feel kind of odd that two Lannisters want to marry Rhaenyra).

10 hours ago, Mithras said:

I mean, this is wrong. The show keeps saying that the Lords of Westeros would never suffer a woman on the Iron Throne. Nevermind the fact that half of them will fight for Rhaenyra till the bitter end and then some. The same is true for the books. GRRM back in the day wrote this king list where Aegon II is counted as the king and he has no choice but to roll with it. But it doesn't make sense why the blacks won the war but still consider Aegon II as the official king. It is not like Maegor who did a lot of uncontested ruling that it is hard to ignore him.

You go on about an issue I've mentioned, too.

However, after thinking about it about it some more, one can make the case that show Rhaenys' judgment is clouded by the fact that the Great Council was a landslide victory for Viserys. The show unfortunately simplified things by it not being Laenor vs. Viserys since I think in Laenor's case the fact that he was a seven-year-old boy was as important a reason that he was passed over as that he was of the female line. If Jaehaerys I had passed over Rhaenys in 92 AC already one would expect that she would have had a much better chance at the Great Council.

That Rhaenyra fears the birth of Aegon means that she is going to be passed over, and that the lords expect Viserys to change the succession to favor Aegon is certainly not surprising. It is to be expected.

The moment when things change for Rhaenyra is basically now, in the show. When Viserys makes it clear she remains his heir. From that point on her status as Heir Apparent will solidify, she will build a party of her own, a power base of her own, etc.

In the end the result is not what Otto Hightower and Rhaenys Targaryen both think it will be. Half the Realm will declare for and fight for Rhaenyra. And that only because the king chose her as his heir and stood by her. The fact that the vow was sworn over twenty years ago didn't stop those lords from supporting her - and we don't actually know how many of those actually were folks or descendants of folks who swore the vows. There were some among Rhaenyra's supporters who didn't, like the Tullys.

10 hours ago, farerb said:

The way I see it, and perhaps I'm wrong, but the reason they fought for Rhaenyra was because of an oath they or their fathers made, but they are all pretty much unanimous that Viserys naming Rhaenyra his heir was a mistake, and in order not to repeat such a thing in the future, they agreed that Aegon II will be the one that is counted and not Rhaenyra. As for why Aegon III is the successor, well that's because his claim doesn't just come from Rhaenyra, but from Daemon as well.

The question about who actually reigned and ruled isn't up to debate. It is just historical facts. Aegon II was deposed for a time. You can say he was still 'the rightful king' while he hid on Dragonstone, but you cannot say he still reigned or ruled at that point because Rhaenyra was doing that. If Westerosi history was written with such bias as you imply here then Maegor the Cruel would never be counted as a proper king because he was a usurper and a false king.

The fact that they do count Maegor means they should have also counted Rhaenyra because of how the Dance played out. If Rhaenyra had been as much a failure in the field as Aegon the Uncrowned - never winning a victory, never seizing the throne, never having a coronation, never being acknowledged by KL and half or more of the Realm as the rightful ruler ... then not counting her would make sense in context.

But as it is it just doesn't.

As has been pointed out, folks do go on about the succession in considerable detail in FaB ... but the argument that Aegon III is crowned because he is also descended from Daemon Targaryen never comes up. Not even once. He is only viewed as Rhaenyra's son. That's what his claim is.

This is especially interesting in comparison to Jaehaera's claim who is actually viewed as the stronger claim, presumably because she is the only surviving child of the last king, Aegon II. Which is why I laid out above that the main (or only) reason Aegon III is crowned is because Rhaenyra's Blacks end up winning the war. If they hadn't and Aegon II had had a natural death around the same time then the Greens would have crowned Jaehaera instead ... and Aegon the Younger would have been killed. The reason that he survives and is crowned is only because the Blacks win.

And, of course, if he and Baela had been killed and the Greens had crowned Jaehaera the Blacks would have gone with Rhaena as their queen, who just hatched her own dragon.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Hell, it doesn't even matter because he is the closest male relative of Aegon II, which is part of why Aegon II was assassinated. His own followers viewed Aegon III as his heir over his own daughter. It's why Aegon II threatening to send Aegon III in pieces to the "rebels" was so horrifying to them. It's also why, I suspect, Corys knew he had to act because his own children were on the block as well.

As I explained it to a friend of mine, the Dance of the Dragon ends on a horrific irony:

"The Blacks win because they have the only male heir remaining while the Greens lose because they have a female heir to rally behind."

Nah, only Corlys viewed Aegon the Younger as anyone of significance, and since the Greens needed him and his fleet desperately, they had to postpone the boy's murder, basically. Aegon II, Alicent, Tyland, and Borros weren't exactly in favor of Aegon the Younger. And Larys Strong most likely would have just as well done away with Corlys and Aegon the Younger had things improved for the Greens (although chances are that the outcome would have been the same even if Borros had won on the Kingsroad since they stood no chance against Cregan's army and the fresh troops from the Vale).

After the last battle is lost, there aren't any Greens in the capital. Corlys Velaryon was never a Green to begin with - Addam Velaryon died as a Black general at Second Tumbleton despite Rhaenyra's attempt to imprison them - and after Aegon II's cause was lost pretty much his entire court conspired to murder him, led by Larys and Corlys. The only actual Greens left were Alicent and the goons Perkin, Larys, and Corlys had murdered.

George kind of drops the ball on Baela's status in the wake of Aegon II's restoration and Corlys accepting a Green pardon and a place on the council - we don't know if she was still a hostage or if she just lived at the Red Keep together with her grandfather. But the implication you get is that only Aegon the Younger remained a hostage, Corlys' granddaughter was released.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

In the books he's just a great knight who's really into Rhaenyra, till they fell apart. Once they part is when his characterization really starts. Ditto, I'll assume with the show.

Regarding Cole there was actually a rather interesting and subtle issue in the last episode. When Rhaenyra asks him whether the Realm will ever accept her as the queen ... he says they won't have a choice. He doesn't say he thinks she should be queen, nor does he say she will be his queen. After all, a loyal Kingsguard he, too, has no choice in the matter. He has to follow the commands of the king.

But that could be a hint that he privately thinks that Viserys made a mistake in naming her his heir ... but as a KG he doesn't have the right of an opinion on the matter. If he wasn't drawn into sexual shenanigans and politicking with the royals he may have ended up staying out of the succession strife completely. But, one imagines, after he and Rhaenyra fall out he will fall in with Alicent and that's that.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

2. I think George, even then, knew what he was doing. Part of what is clear in the various interpretations of the Dance is that it remains an incredibly controversial period of Westeros history. However, while the "Blacks win" that doesn't detract from the fact it was a Pyrrhic victory for everyone involved. As we know from Stannis (even if he's exaggerating), Rhaenyra's reputation was horrifically blackened post-Dance and no one would ever write of their legitimate queen they did in the books as they do of her.

The whole Stannis angle just makes little sense in context of what actually transpired.

And it is no Pyrrhic victory insofar as party lines are concerned (only in relation to the death of the dragons). The Greens are done. The Blacks aren't. They had sufficient strength to continue the war and punish the houses who supported Aegon II. It is a general desire of peace what's stops that, not weakness on the part of the victorious Blacks.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Confirmation that there was a cut wedding and/or wedding prep scene in E2: 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Gyldayn and Yandel both name Rhaenyra queen during the time she is styled queen by her followers (after her coronation on Dragonstone) and while she actually sits the Iron Throne. Even after Rhaenyra runs away she isn't demoted to princess.

I don't think GRRM established all the details when he initially wrote the list of kings. The AGoT appendix says that "Aegon II's ascent was disputed by his sister Rhaenyra, a year his elder. Both perished in the war between them, called by singers the Dance of the Dragons". It's not specified whether she ever sat on the Iron Throne, and their age difference obviously doesn't match.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Confirmation that there was a cut wedding and/or wedding prep scene in E2: 

 

They should get their act together and release extended cuts of those episodes. Especially if it also turns out that they cut Laena claiming Vhagar.

The impression one has is that they intended to have two dressing scenes mirroring each other - Alicent helping Rhaenyra prepare for investiture as heir, Rhaenyra helping Alicent prepare for her wedding.

And I think the latter certainly could have helped establish where they stand. Because it isn't really clear in episode 3 what pisses Rhaenyra off. It is more her father or Alicent ... and to what degree is it Alicent? All somewhat of a mess because the girls had no scene together after the wedding was announced.

15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't think GRRM established all the details when he initially wrote the list of kings. The AGoT appendix says that "Aegon II's ascent was disputed by his sister Rhaenyra, a year his elder. Both perished in the war between them, called by singer the Dance of the Dragons". It's not specified whether she ever sat on the Iron Throne, and their age difference obviously doesn't match.

Yeah, that's why I said that we were surprised by Rhaenyra ever sitting the Iron Throne when TPatQ came out. 'Contested' kind of plays her role/success done, does it not? Stannis also 'contests' the rise of Joffrey/Tommen, but he never got really close to the throne.

The change that Rhaenyra was ten years older than Aegon rather than merely a year, only his half-sister and her father's chosen heir was also somewhat unexpected.

I recall that my original image of Rhaenyra, completely based on how things are presented in the appendix, was that of an ambitious warrior princess who felt that she should rule because she was better suited for it, not because she was her daddy's favorite or anything.

The revelation that she was fed to Aegon's dragon and Aegon III witnessing this was kind of a letdown, since the war ending with Aegon III on the throne seemed to imply that her faction won the end. George kind of makes it work in FaB, but not exactly elegantly. It is a stretch that Aegon the Younger's life was spared.

[butterweedstrover]

I am sad to inform everyone that Queen Elizabeth II has passed away. She was the longest reigning monarch in British history and herself, her throne, and her bloodline have been a major influence onto the creation of this world and series.

[C.T. Phipps]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The revelation that she was fed to Aegon's dragon and Aegon III witnessing this was kind of a letdown, since the war ending with Aegon III on the throne seemed to imply that her faction won the end. George kind of makes it work in FaB, but not exactly elegantly. It is a stretch that Aegon the Younger's life was spared.

How is it a stretch? That's like saying Sansa's life being spared is a stretch. I think the killing of prisoners, especially of royal blood, is something that Westeros hasn't normalized. It was a huge shocking act when the Mountain did it.

Mind you, I'm not going to dispute this any further. You either believe the Maesters can write down Rhaenyra as a usurper sometime after the death of the monarch or you don't. I never underestimate the ability of Westeros' people to learn the wrong lesson.

Edited September 8, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Lord Varys]

Just now, C.T. Phipps said:

How is it a stretch? That's like saying Sansa's life being spared is a stretch.

Sansa was never a pretender in whose name half of Westeros was fighting against the king.

If Aegon II is so depraved as to feed his own sister to his dragon, then he should also have not shown mercy to Aegon at that moment. Which is why many of us imagined the whole scene not as an execution but rather as some kind of hit-and-run attack. I remember favoring a scenario of the final battle of the war taking place in KL, with Aegon II dying in battle and his riderless dragon running amok and devouring Rhaenyra in the process of it, with a helpless Aegon being only able to watch.

In context of the setting as it is, it may have been much better if Aegon III had had an elder living brother at that time in whose name his mother's supporters continued the fight, that would have made Aegon less important. Say, Joffrey Velaryon still being around at some other place.

Not to mention that in general it could have been great to have Rhaenyra's consort outliving her and being the guy who seats his son on the Iron Throne. It would have made much more sense if Daemon had run away with Nettles after realizing what tedious business it was to serve as Prince Regent to a completely apathetic king ;-).

[C.T. Phipps]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sansa was never a pretender in whose name half of Westeros was fighting against the king.

If Aegon II is so depraved as to feed his own sister to his dragon, then he should also have not shown mercy to Aegon at that moment. Which is why many of us imagined the whole scene not as an execution but rather as some kind of hit-and-run attack. I remember favoring a scenario of the final battle of the war taking place in KL, with Aegon II dying in battle and his riderless dragon running amok and devouring Rhaenyra in the process of it, with a helpless Aegon being only able to watch.

In context of the setting as it is, it may have been much better if Aegon III had had an elder living brother at that time in whose name his mother's supporters continued the fight, that would have made Aegon less important. Say, Joffrey Velaryon still being around at some other place.

Not to mention that in general it could have been great to have Rhaenyra's consort outliving her and being the guy who seats his son on the Iron Throne. It would have made much more sense if Daemon had run away with Nettles after realizing what tedious business it was to serve as Prince Regent to a completely apathetic king ;-).

Aegon III is a valuable hostage and I'm honestly surprised you don't see the benefit. It's the same benefit that Bloodraven gets for the fact that he has Daemon II as a prisoner. Aegon II keeping Aegon III as a prisoner means that the Blacks can't crown another king in his place and they have an immensely valuable hostage to negotiate with. Its just when Alicent suggests cutting him up and Aegon II agrees that his surviving allies turn on him because they realize he's insane.

Frankly, the fact Cregan Stark continued to march despite his king being a hostage is shocking.

Edited September 8, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

I honestly feel that Rhaenyra's desire not to get married would make more sense if it was also because she fears dying in childbirth the way her mother and grandmothers did. (Alyssa Targaryen dying in childbirth at the age of 24 was one of my greatest disappointments with F & B because it's just incredibly lazy on GRRM's part.)