[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion

[Lord Varys]

On 9/9/2022 at 5:20 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

You'll have to explain how being the Great Grandson of a King and grandson of a Targaryen helps the argument that lineage doesn't matter and that force of arms is the sole determinator for who should be king or not, @Lord Varys. I mean, the argument Renly is making is an appeal to "might makes right." He's making an insult to the concept of rulership by lineage because he's making a completely illegal and utterly unsupported usurpation.

It feels like you're ignoring the context of Renly's argument and are in fact acting like he should have the exact opposite point of it. This despite the fact that arguing the opposite would make him not the ruler of Westeros but third in line after Joffrey, Stannis, and Tommen or even sixth in line.

Renly - and Robert before him to a point - don't dismiss who and what they are. They just ignore primogeniture. Robert was a close cousin of Rhaegar and Aerys, just as Renly happened to be King Robert's younger brother.

That's the reason why they - the weakest rebel lords - were able to convince their allies to crown them. If might truly made right and not royal blood then Mace Tyrell himself should claim the throne. He is much more powerful than Renly. Just as Ned or Hoster were the more powerful rebel lords during Robert's Rebellion.

Renly's usurpation is not 'utterly unsupported' - he does have quite a little bit of royal blood, he just happens to be not the next in line. But he is in line to the throne, and that sets him apart from all those people who are not in line to the throne at all.

I get it that George apparently wants to paint Borros and Renly as careless, stupid people there ... but it just doesn't fit with the setting. Kin of royalty wouldn't dismiss real legal claims *that easily*.

On 9/9/2022 at 3:22 AM, TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai said:

Or maybe she wasn’t recognized as a legal ruler by Oldtown.  Remember, we are getting Oldtown’s and the Citidel’s version of history.

But Archmaester Gyldayn's history does recognize her as queen, styles her as queen, etc. ... they are not biased in this regard at all.

On 9/9/2022 at 5:53 AM, SeanF said:

Correct.  The burning of Kings Landing, however grim, would be small beer, compared to saving the world.  The two D’s upended the books, by making the fight against the Others less important than the fight for the iron Throne.

Had Dany, Jon, and their armies just saved Westeros from eternal enslavement, most people would just go “meh” at the sack of a city whose commander rejected quarter.

Which is actually why I think the ending as given has literally nothing to do with the intended book ending at this point. More importantly, I cannot possibly see a political reason why Jon Snow might want to murder Daenerys. Perhaps a completely weird scheme while something like that might be necessary for prophetic or magical reasons ... but even that feels somewhat silly.

In addition, I think, Dany is far too, well, nice and sane in her POV to ever become a proper mad queen. Cersei, while already pretty unhinged, also hasn't reached Euron- or Ramsay-like monstrosity ... if she ends up becoming a real monster she still has a way to go - losing her remaining children, etc. But for Daenerys the road to madness and monstrosity would be much longer than her journey to Westeros.

I also don't think the narrative of Dany the Mad Queen and Dany the person who plays a crucial role in the fight against the Others would go well together. While the south is not yet suffering terribly from winter and cold, while the Others have not yet breached the Wall one could see Aegon or others spread the story about Daenerys the Mad ... but I'm not sure how effective or convincing such a story could be when the truth about the Others spreads and folks realize that those dragons could become quite handy in fighting their armies. Not to mention that whatever pretenders are left at that point won't have much success in convincing the lords and common people to take up arms and fight each other while all their necks are threatened.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Lord Varys

[Lord Varys]

Back to the episode:

Is it only Caraxes and Seasmoke on the Stepstones? There is a reddish looking dragon blasting folks in one scene which shouldn't be Caraxes since Daemon is doing his John Wick stunt at the time. Was that Meleys, or is Seasmoke reddish from above?

Even I am confused now. Would be pretty weird, though, to have Rhaenys and Meleys being there but not actually be part of the war council ... so I guess she isn't there, right?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Is it only Caraxes and Seasmoke on the Stepstones? There is a reddish looking dragon blasting folks in one scene which shouldn't be Caraxes since Daemon is doing his John Wick stunt at the time. Was that Meleys, or is Seasmoke reddish from above?

Maybe it was another scene that was cut?

[slant]

  

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Is it only Caraxes and Seasmoke on the Stepstones? There is a reddish looking dragon blasting folks in one scene which shouldn't be Caraxes since Daemon is doing his John Wick stunt at the time. Was that Meleys, or is Seasmoke reddish from above?

 

^Yes you are right, the edges of Seasmoke's wings are reddish in colour from below and above

Edited September 9, 2022 by slant

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Back to the episode:

Is it only Caraxes and Seasmoke on the Stepstones? There is a reddish looking dragon blasting folks in one scene which shouldn't be Caraxes since Daemon is doing his John Wick stunt at the time. Was that Meleys, or is Seasmoke reddish from above?

Even I am confused now. Would be pretty weird, though, to have Rhaenys and Meleys being there but not actually be part of the war council ... so I guess she isn't there, right?

it's Seasmoke . under its wings are pink-reddish in movement . Seasmoke has turned out to be a very pretty dragon:) 

 

regarding Mad Queens , honestly Rhaenyra never becomes Mad Queen in the book and I doubt they go in that direction in the show . when it comes to Mad Queens , we should be worried about Alicent and Haelena  . 

[C.T. Phipps]

My hope is Rhaenyra's death is received like Ned Stark's.

Tragic and yet sufficiently supported by text.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

My hope is Rhaenyra's death is received like Ned Stark's.

Ned wasn't a tyrannical ruler, though.

[C.T. Phipps]

36 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Ned wasn't a tyrannical ruler, though.

Rhaenyra's tax policy and smoking some dragon murderers is about the level of her tyranny.

 

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Ned wasn't a tyrannical ruler, though.

Rhaenyra isn't particularly tyrannical, though. She is perceived as such mainly because she does have to take unpopular measures to raise money since the Greens emptied the treasury and hid the gold away.

I expect they won't portray her as some saint ... but there is nothing wrong by adding complexity to her more questionable decisions, especially the Addam/Nettles thing.

Paying back war with war, assassinations with assassinations, and executions with executions is neither evil nor mad. It is like expecting the Northmen and Riverlords forget and forgive the Red Wedding, basically.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Rhaenyra's tax policy and smoking some dragon murderers is about the level of her tyranny.

 

You left off the worst thing she did though, ordering one of her lords to violate guest rights and murder poor Nettles. Plus arrest Addam. The impression I got was that she was pretty nuts by the end. Like one more dead kid away from clawing her own face too shreds like Catlyn did in the main books.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

You left off the worst thing she did though, ordering one of her lords to violate guest rights and murder poor Nettles. Plus arrest Addam. The impression I got was that she was pretty nuts by the end. Like one more dead kid away from clawing her own face too shreds like Catlyn did in the main books.

The Addam thing is a more a precaution - preventive custody, basically. The Nettles thing is ... quite ugly, although something she is pushed into by the evil adviser. Now, this whole Daemon-Nettles thing as well as the Mysaria intrigue there (if they keep that) the show has to make work somehow, since in the book that's pretty much a mess.

But both those measures actually are things Rhaenyra's entire council (save Corlys and the Grand Maester) push her to do. It isn't the solitary decision of a mad monarch, but the consensus of a terrified and paranoid court which apparently was starting to see treason in every corner.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra isn't particularly tyrannical, though. She is perceived as such mainly because she does have to take unpopular measures to raise money since the Greens emptied the treasury and hid the gold away.

I expect they won't portray her as some saint ... but there is nothing wrong by adding complexity to her more questionable decisions, especially the Addam/Nettles thing.

Paying back war with war, assassinations with assassinations, and executions with executions is neither evil nor mad. It is like expecting the Northmen and Riverlords forget and forgive the Red Wedding, basically.

But it will definitely be hard to feel the same sympathy for her as for Ned.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

17 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

My hope is Rhaenyra's death is received like Ned Stark's.

Tragic and yet sufficiently supported by text.

Nah. Ned will always be more impactful and meaningful. Ned was the clear main character, especially in the show, the father of everyone's favorite family, a family man, a good father, husband and respected ruler of the North, the favorite friend of King Rob who begged him to help turn the decaying Kingdom around and who the public rooted for since day 1, a just, honorable and good person overall. Rhaenyra is a spoiled brat who can't do her duty and is too much of a narcissist to want all the attention meanwhile burning the whole kingdom and her family down. She gets a +1 for incest but that's it

Edited September 10, 2022 by Ser Yorick Ampersand

[butterweedstrover]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Tbf, while one mad queen is passable, three is just a very bad joke. Dany's ending just made Cersei's and Rhaenyra's fates leave a very bad taste in my mouth.

Lysa is another woman in power who goes crazy. 

[butterweedstrover]

Anyways, as boring as RoP is, there are jokes. 

Like when the old black Harfoot (Sadoc) says they'd carry those left behind... in their hearts and memories. 

Oh, House of the Dragon needs to find its soul. 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Is it just me or do the numbers for the Stepstones not add up? If I remember correctly, Vaemond says they have 700 men and less than 20 ships. Furthermore, Viserys I sending 2000 men and 12 ships is treated like a big deal. Those numbers are way too low! During the Dance the Triarchy easily fields 90 warships and even after their losses at the Gullet the Velaryons still control Blackwater Bay.

[C.T. Phipps]

26 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Is it just me or do the numbers for the Stepstones not add up? If I remember correctly, Vaemond says they have 700 men and less than 20 ships. Furthermore, Viserys I sending 2000 men and 12 ships is treated like a big deal. Those numbers are way too low! During the Dance the Triarchy easily fields 90 warships and even after their losses at the Gullet the Velaryons still control Blackwater Bay.

I mean they're about to lose the war.

But the thing is the Triarchy is not at war with Westeros in the series. They're supporting the Crabfeeder but it seems a modern terrorist scenario rather than a war between nation states.

[DMC]

On Daenerys vs. Rhaenyra:  Rhaenyra didn't birth three dragons through magic for the first time in over a century.  Rhaenyra wasn't apparently fireproof as is suggested in the Dothraki scene in season 6; and essentially depicted as the magical chosen one for most of seasons 2-5.  Rhaenyra didn't have that huge flex where she is supported by the the Unsullied, Dothraki, Dorne, Iron Islands as they set sail for Westeros -- not to mention having a number of the show's clearly most favorably depicted characters fall all over themselves trying to serve her.

So..no, I don't think it's the same thing at all.  Although, of course, there will be a shitton of consternation about the depiction of women as rulers if/when Rhaenyra is portrayed as going crazy.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

What is the scene where Rhaenyra sees the white hart supposed to mean? That she's the rightful heir?

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

What is the scene where Rhaenyra sees the white hart supposed to mean? That she's the rightful heir?

My guess is pointless filler. Too much of a coincidence with Arya's white horse from GOT season 8. Trying to make the audience like or something. The boar scene was also silly.