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[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion


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3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I don't want to spend too long on this - it's rather subjective stuff.
My point would be that any form of "omen" with supernatural vibes opens up a bad can of worms. Because if the "Gods" (or destiny, or whatever) clearly favor one protagonist, then why do things then go horribly wrong? If the Gods themselves sent an omen to Rhaenyra, why did Aegon eventually win the Dance?
In order for that to work, either Rhaenyra then loses the Gods' favor (which has to be shown in some way imho), or the Greens need a power of their own (magical or equivalent).
In other words, you start with a simple hart, and you end up validating the grand maester conspiracy :rolleyes:. 'tis why i said I wasn't sure about the meaning, because I don't know how far the showrunners have thought this one through, and/or whether the George himself has validated this in some form. Depending on their plans it could mean very little (Rhaenyra herself is just overthinking the symbolism), or a lot (it will affect the show's entire narrative).

I would dispute the claim that Aegon wins the Dance. Not sure if there are non-readers in this thread so

Spoiler

While he kills Rhaenyra, militarily he is left the weaker. His last army, the Baratheons, gets destroyed days march from KL by Rhaenyra's supporters and considering that Rhaenyra still had living heirs, at least one known one, her supporters could have overthrown Aegon II.

I haven't quite decided on the white hart symbolism for Rhaenyra, so I'll come back to that.

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20 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I would dispute the claim that Aegon wins the Dance. Not sure if there are non-readers in this thread so

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While he kills Rhaenyra, militarily he is left the weaker. His last army, the Baratheons, gets destroyed days march from KL by Rhaenyra's supporters and considering that Rhaenyra still had living heirs, at least one known one, her supporters could have overthrown Aegon II.

I haven't quite decided on the white hart symbolism for Rhaenyra, so I'll come back to that.

According to the maesters and everyone in-universe, Aegon technically won. He’s listed as the king in the appendix and the world book. The reason why this is important is because it had a huge effect on future succession. If Rhaenyra had won, then Daena would have been queen after Baelor,  and Daenora after Aerys I. 

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6 hours ago, Mithras said:

Re: 2 seasons to set up the dance

There may need to be 2 seasons of material shown before the Dance starts. But no watcher would have the patience to wait for 2 seasons for the basic premise to kick in (especially with such long years between each season). That scenario would fail similar to how American Gods failed. The much hyped war between the gods was delayed and delayed and delayed until it never really happened. 

You operate under the weird assumption that the casual viewer of the show is dying to get to the point where a boy who is a two-year-old in episode 3 is going to be a 20-year-old lazy drunk with toddlers of his own, trying to steal his sister's throne.

That's not what the casual viewer is waiting for.

Of course, they would have to make a longer buildup for the Dance entertaining, possibly adding more interesting material and side stories. But that would be doable, especially the flesh out Alicent's children more. By default, they will be the least developled characters by the end of season 1.

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Something that bugs me a bit is that they never showed Rhaenyra asking Viserys to make Criston Cole her sworn shield. I know there was a time skip, but it feels like Criston became her personal bodyguard as soon as he was appointed to the Kingsguard.

Have no issue with that, since she actually was the one choosing him for the KG, so this kind of flows naturally. Although I imagines there was such a scene, possibly as part of the actual investiture they filmed but cut.

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I don't want to spend too long on this - it's rather subjective stuff.

Just go with the hart being an omen for Rhaenyra's 'rightful queenship' rather than bothering with imagine that the gods would bother deciding who should win a pointless civil war. Although, of course, Rhaenyra did win the war - the armies fighting in her name did, even if she herself didn't live to see it.

Also, in context, keep in mind what kind of ugly business it would have been for Viserys to actually kill a white hart symbolizing (his son's) kingship. Doesn't that then mean the king is dead or will die?

If there is symbolism in that episode it is between Viserys and Rhaenyra, with the former showing he is not exactly a great king - killing a hart who kind of symbolizes kingship but flinching away in the process of it - while Rhaenyra, who originally was reluctant of hunting business, etc. shows she is the true steel when fighting back against the boar and having the mental strength to put it down easily enough.

Her seeing the white hart in the end kind of envokes the whole unicorn thing - that only the innocent (or in this case: the best suited, the worthy) can see it. And then she intuitively knows that it is not to be harmed.

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Interesting that they're portraying Laenor as more traditionally masculine than he is described in the book. It's the reverse of what they did with Lloris in GoT, where they made him somewhat effeminate in the show despite him being one of the greatest knights in the realm in the book.

I reckon Viserys has delusions of grandeur about being a dreamer.

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4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Something that bugs me a bit is that they never showed Rhaenyra asking Viserys to make Criston Cole her sworn shield. I know there was a time skip, but it feels like Criston became her personal bodyguard as soon as he was appointed to the Kingsguard.

I'm not sure this has actually happened. If Cole was her sworn shield, why was he one of the two knights that went with Otto to Dragonstone? He would have been required to stay put and guard Rhaenyra. And in this episode he was guarding the main pavilion when he noticed Rhaenrya running off and choosing to go after her. But this episode probably did deserve such a scene in the aftermath of the boar kill.

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17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

According to the maesters and everyone in-universe, Aegon technically won. He’s listed as the king in the appendix and the world book. The reason why this is important is because it had a huge effect on future succession. If Rhaenyra had won, then Daena would have been queen after Baelor,  and Daenora after Aerys I. 

Yes, you're right in this context. I would argue that it wasn't Aegon who was the victor per say, but those who favored the patriarchy, which really included people from Rhaenyra's side, as well, who fought for her due to their oaths.

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3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

According to the maesters and everyone in-universe, Aegon technically won. He’s listed as the king in the appendix and the world book. The reason why this is important is because it had a huge effect on future succession. If Rhaenyra had won, then Daena would have been queen after Baelor,  and Daenora after Aerys I. 

Aegon II was first crowned and anointed and the last guy standing, so that's why he is 'the king who was counted'. But he actually lost the war, was murdered, and then replaced by Rhaenyra's eldest living son.

But as I keep saying, the in-universe counting sucks because Aegon II didn't actually 'reign' for two years, since he was deposed after nearly a year of his reign, replaced by Rhaenyra who reigned half a year or so, followed by a chaotic interregnum, after which Aegon II was briefly restored to the throne.

No real world historian would say a king like Aegon II actually 'reigned' while somebody else sat on his throne and he hid on some island.

Although, even if Rhaenyra had survived the war, her reign would likely only have begun in 130 AC rather than 129 AC, since Aegon II was crowned first, and they would go with the start of her actual possession of the Iron Throne as the start of her reign - just like it was with Jaehaerys I - who only started to reign once Maegor was dead. Aenys' family certainly viewed Maegor's entire reign as that of a false king and usurper ... but they did not retroactively try to talk about the reigns of Aegon II, Viserys I, and Jaehaerys I ... because the guy actually ruling was Maegor the Cruel.

Regarding Viserys II and Daena:

George will have to revisit that issue in FaB II. For Rhaenyra's sons her claim to the throne must be the deciding factor that they are in charge, especially for Aegon III who took up a QG sword to defend his mother at the end. The idea that these two followed the Green ideology and basically invalidated their mother's claim retroactively just doesn't make much sense. Especially since Aegon III is basically only crowned because his mother's troops defeated the last Green army. If Borros Baratheon had won and Aegon II had choked to death a day later, then Alicent and the Greens would have done away with Aegon the Younger and crowned Jaehaera.

In that sense one would imagine that Aegon III would have had no issue if his eldest daughter succeeded any of his childless sons. I think the best way to deal with that whole thing was if they decided to unite the claims and have Daena marry Viserys after Baelor's death. Depending how quickly the old man dies, there could be a wedding or merely a plan for a wedding.

15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Speaking of Daenora, should we assume that she’s another woman who died in childbirth? Her son was born only a year before Maekar died, but her claim wasn’t mentioned in the Great Council (unlike Vaella), so she presumably died during the year in between.

She could have died in childbirth. But I actually hope that she kind of acted like Rhaenys at the Great Council - being the one to put forward her son's claims rather than her own. If Daenora wasn't there to do that, I'm not sure who would have. I guess Alys Arryn, Rhaegel's wife, would be another option. But she could have been long dead at that time, too.

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18 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Apparently, GRRM wanted a big royal hunt for the first season of GoT, which they didn't have the budget for back then. It's cool that he got one now, at least.

 

Did anyone else notice that they seemed to be using Cane Corso dogs as hunting dogs?  I'm wondering if this is the only hunting breed in all of Westeros?  Usually, medieval European-type aristocrats and kings would use scenthounds for hunting; Cane Corsos have a history of use as protectors of home and livestock.  Ramsay Bolton used them to track and slaughter helpless girls in the TV show; of course, and lived to learn first-hand the consequences of starving an aggressive breed as a training tactic.  

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4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Something that bugs me a bit is that they never showed Rhaenyra asking Viserys to make Criston Cole her sworn shield. I know there was a time skip, but it feels like Criston became her personal bodyguard as soon as he was appointed to the Kingsguard.

I guess with that choosing scene in ep 2 I just kinda assumed but you're right, it's never officially established.

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A review of who "wins" the Dance:

Spoiler

A lot of the reason that Aegon II "counts" seems to be that Maesters favoring male patriarchy wrote down the history of the event but in every way that counted, he failed. At least if you're viewing the conflict between the Rhaenyra vs. Aegon II lineages of the House Targaryen versus a conflict between patriarchy vs. sexism. The "joke" of the latter being Rhaenyra has a male heir at the end while Aegon II doesn't.

Rhaenyra dies but he's crippled, his male heirs dead, and the Blacks emboldened by her death rather than inclined to surrender. There's a very much "hiding in his bunker" feel to the last days of the war and we know it ends in his assassination.

 

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

According to the maesters and everyone in-universe, Aegon technically won. He’s listed as the king in the appendix and the world book. The reason why this is important is because it had a huge effect on future succession. If Rhaenyra had won, then Daena would have been queen after Baelor,  and Daenora after Aerys I. 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

George will have to revisit that issue in FaB II. For Rhaenyra's sons her claim to the throne must be the deciding factor that they are in charge, especially for Aegon III who took up a QG sword to defend his mother at the end. The idea that these two followed the Green ideology and basically invalidated their mother's claim retroactively just doesn't make much sense. Especially since Aegon III is basically only crowned because his mother's troops defeated the last Green army. If Borros Baratheon had won and Aegon II had choked to death a day later, then Alicent and the Greens would have done away with Aegon the Younger and crowned Jaehaera.

In that sense one would imagine that Aegon III would have had no issue if his eldest daughter succeeded any of his childless sons. I think the best way to deal with that whole thing was if they decided to unite the claims and have Daena marry Viserys after Baelor's death. Depending how quickly the old man dies, there could be a wedding or merely a plan for a wedding.

 

regarding ViserysII issue , I pretty much expect this to feel like a slap in the face and a betrayal on Viserys's part in F&BII , since basically Viserys/Daena was the deciding point for whether Rhaenyra's legacy lives on or not . of course Rhaenyra was not a feminist activist by any means . but I think we could be fairly certain that if Jacerys was a girl , she might have as well pulled a Nymeria and that would have been the indicator of succession in her line . it's also fair to assume as close as Aegon III was to his mother , he probably would have named his daughter heir , had she been the eldest and considering the after-dance  era they were in , no one would have challenged him ,especially with support of his brother , and his sisters' houses( prominent Blacks and Greens supporters) . unfortunately , it all came down to Viserys who was 7 the last time he saw his mother and in aftermath of Baelor disaster of all times.

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Dynastically, the Blacks clearly won the war, just as Matilda's bloodline triumphed over Stephen's. While this doesn't mean Aegon III, Viserys II and their descendants would have wanted to establish Dornish succession law in Westeros ... their own claim and that of all the future Targaryen kings went back to and through Rhaenyra Targaryen.

Which means that those kings not honoring her and Westeros as a whole not viewing her as the rightful queen is quite odd. After all, the issue there was never about 'bettering the situation of royal or noblewomen in the succession game' but simply that King Viserys I had a chosen heir that happened to be a special woman.

We see how things realistically would have gone with Rhaena, Jaehaerys, and their descendants - they did not view Maegor as the rightful king nor did they honor his memory in any way. To them and their family and descendants he was a vile traitor and usurper. And Aegon II and his kin should have been viewed in very much a similar way by Aegon III, Viserys II, and their descendants.

Edited by Lord Varys
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It's heartbreaking to see Alicent and Rhaenyra no longer friends. Watching the last ep when she sought Rhaenyra to join the festivities, at first I was a bit disappointed that Rhaenyra dismissed her. But upon rewatch I have to question Alicent's logic here after 2-3 years. Seems like to mend the friendship Alicent would have to tell Rhaenyra the truth, which at minimum would include that she sought the king on the night after Aemma and Baelon's funeral ( hardly forgivable IMO). I doubt that she would go as far as telling that her dad sent her wearing her mom dress because that would expose Otto and would probably get her and her kids disowned since Viserys is growing increasingly mistrustful of the politicking. Is she then hoping to offer half truths to mend the friendship somewhat? I mean Im sure it would make Alicent feel better if her excuses are accepted, but that's just adding selfishness on top of betrayal of trust; which judging by how obvious Otto's ambitions are, Rhaenyra would probably figure out the truth anyway. By this point, I would have expected Alicent to just accept that she won't get that friendship back and leave Rhaenyra alone and just move on as quiet as possible even if that means she starts working with Otto to positioning Aegon as heir (I'd respect her more if she were more honest with herself). I'm liking this predicament in the show more than the book though. 

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On 9/4/2022 at 9:33 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Viserys should have betrothed Helaena and Jace when Jace was a newborn.

The issue is, as better off as Helaena would be, that Aegon and his brother's claim to the throne still exists.  If Rhaenyra had a daughter and named the daughter as heir perhaps that would have helped.  

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11 minutes ago, kingDaemonI said:

The issue is, as better off as Helaena would be, that Aegon and his brother's claim to the throne still exists.  If Rhaenyra had a daughter and named the daughter as heir perhaps that would have helped.  

It comes down to Viserys completely misreading Alicent. He clearly didn’t believe she and Otto would stage a coup. If he did, then the betrothal would have worked, because Alicent wouldn’t have endangered her own grandson, who would all but certainly have been killed if Aegon took the throne.

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34 minutes ago, Tywin's Wallet said:

It's heartbreaking to see Alicent and Rhaenyra no longer friends. Watching the last ep when she sought Rhaenyra to join the festivities, at first I was a bit disappointed that Rhaenyra dismissed her. But upon rewatch I have to question Alicent's logic here after 2-3 years. Seems like to mend the friendship Alicent would have to tell Rhaenyra the truth, which at minimum would include that she sought the king on the night after Aemma and Baelon's funeral ( hardly forgivable IMO). I doubt that she would go as far as telling that her dad sent her wearing her mom dress because that would expose Otto and would probably get her and her kids disowned since Viserys is growing increasingly mistrustful of the politicking. Is she then hoping to offer half truths to mend the friendship somewhat? I mean Im sure it would make Alicent feel better if her excuses are accepted, but that's just adding selfishness on top of betrayal of trust; which judging by how obvious Otto's ambitions are, Rhaenyra would probably figure out the truth anyway. By this point, I would have expected Alicent to just accept that she won't get that friendship back and leave Rhaenyra alone and just move on as quiet as possible even if that means she starts working with Otto to positioning Aegon as heir (I'd respect her more if she were more honest with herself). I'm liking this predicament in the show more than the book though. 

I didn’t get the impression that Alicent understood what Otto was doing at first. She seemed to earnestly believe she was just there to give her condolences. Clearly nothing happened beyond her just reading to him, and I don’t believe anything physical happened prior to their marriage. 

My issue is that I don’t think we got to see enough of their friendship to feel heartbroken over their falling out. The next few episodes may change that, but right now I don’t think the war is going to have the level of tragedy between the two of them that the showrunners are aiming for.

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I wish they had found a bigger actor to play Harwin Strong. Though I appreciated the detail of him holding one of the ropes of the stag with just his hands, while the others were using their horses. But it would have been nice to see a big dude get clobbered by Criston Cole later.

Based on visual evidence for now the show points towards Corlys being the strongest knight/lord in the Seven Kingdoms.

Edited by Corvinus85
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since I've already talked about what I saw as the episode's flaws , I'd like to say that even this episode was still pretty good.

  • the theme all in all was really well done , albeit poor editing took away from it. 
  • Rhaenyra's concern for Alicent . Rhaenyra's concern for Alicent's health traveling in such condition comes off as genuine.too bad it's followed by Alicent's explanation about how easy childbirth had been for her . unintentional on Alicent's part but subtle glances between Viserys and Alicent and the nurses show taht everybody knows what exactly this has reminded Rhaenyra of : Aemma's difficult births that eventually killed her.
  •  Alicent defends Rhaenyra in ladies' company which finally bring a half smile on Rhaenyra's face ... hadn't trailers gave so much away , new audiences could easily hope for these girls to mend their friendship!
  • Strong Brothers. Larys's introduction was done very well . a quiet young man unable to hunt with other guys but fairly observant . Harwin was not formally introduced but I rather enjoyed the change they made in him vying for Rhaenyra's hand . he is not interested in her politically , rather his grin to Rhaenyra's hunt shows he admires what she's done and ultimately who she is .
  • Criston Cole . Criston is suppose to be someone who could be so passionate he can go to extremes and the line "you want me to kill him?" , although a joke ,  felt as if Cole is ready to actually do something like that for Rhaenyra in a heartbeat ! a hint for how far he will go?
  • Alicent . during the feast , we see Alicent is aware of everything happening around the king . say what you will , but this Alicent is a good wife and companion till now . 
  • Lyonel Strong . this character is a major highlight for me . slowly showing why later on Viserys names him as his Hand.
  • Laenor Velaryon . this Laenor has a Jaimie like quality that I quite enjoyed . in the light of feminizing Loras and Renly in the original show , I think making Laenor a warrior  was the right call by the showrunners . joking about "master of complaints" was so much like Rhaenyra's line in this episode regarding eating cake ! too bad the editing doesn't make people interested in these details but they could easily show Laenor and Rhaenyra as a couple who have the potential to get along pretty well , only for later to reveal they can't.
  • Matt Smith. this guy didn't have more lines than Kit's season 8 but he acted the hell out of it . super abilities aside , I quite enjoyed this . 
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