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[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion


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21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Go watch the show. She didn't want to be heir and was surprised when her father called her down, shared his fantasy tale with her, and revealed he would name her heir. 

It doesn't matter what she thinks, it matters what she wants. And she wants the throne, she is only ever satisfied when her claim is reinforced by her father. Elsewise she is acting moody and dour. 

Yet her character seems to despise duty and authority. If the story was framed as the heir to the throne hating her birthright it would make sense, but as is she hates the duties involved with ruling but only ever wants reaffirmation of her importance in the line of succession.  

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, she used her dragon and her niece-uncle bond to settle this, not 'sexual tension'. 

Oh, she absolutely does.

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Once her father has a son - which happened two years before episode 3 - she (somewhat correctly, somewhat falsely) concluded that her father wanting to marry her off was part of his preparation to name Aegon his heir. And she feels pissed and exploited there because, apparently, her father just used her as placeholder until he had a son. At this point she has no intention to rule as queen, doesn't even expect it to happen. Very much like Daemon she wants the recognition and love of her father, not power. 

She was pissed before Aemma died and Viserys was expecting a son. And she was pissed afterwards when her claim had a challenger. She also confront her uncle because he was threatening her grip on power. 

The consistency is that she in only ever not pissed when people are bowing at her feet.  

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Does she now? In the TV show I watched she neither has a boy toy so far nor did she run away with him. Criston Cole rode after her. 

She handpicks Criston Cole absent of her father, and then has him follow her around like a minion due to the fact that he is attractive. This hand selected kingsguard is the only one who follows behind her at all times like a loyal dog she can play with. 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So far Alicent tries to be nice. 

And so far all Rhaenyra has done is undermine her own claim to power and tried to make a villain out of potential allies. Alicent can only appease this entitled brat for so long. 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have to wait and see how this continues. Neither in the book nor the show is there any indication that Rhaenyra wants to be desired or burn folks alive. 

Rhaenyra (like her father) wants the people who call out her treasonous adulatory to be tortured. Because she is the rightful queen who gets to do whatever she wants and break whatever rules she wants at her own convenience.  

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That wasn't all that smart, but it is Lady Redwyne who acts like a warmonger here, trying to draw King Viserys into a war he doesn't want. 

The logic behind Rhaenyra's decision to be a bitch as that she is a bitch, not because of any substantive political issue with the position offered.  

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, continue to watch the show. One imagines she ends up fighting for it or else there would be no Dance of the Dragons. 

Oh, she will order people killed or tortured for not accepting her as queen. But unlike this fandom I don't find the claim that someone is the rightful ruler as an excuse for them to be ruler. If you want to be ruler then prove it, do your duties, solidify your claim, and garner allies and close relations. 

The only part Rhaenyra knows is telling people "I am the queen." Which like what Tywin says to Joffrey, means she is no true queen. 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Both book and show will have Otto and Alicent stage a coup to crown Aegon, so the blame for the shit that happens is on them, not Rhaenyra.

And for good reason, because Rhaenyra made enemies and now will pay the price. 

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41 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It doesn't matter what she thinks, it matters what she wants. And she wants the throne, she is only ever satisfied when her claim is reinforced by her father. Else times which is acting moody and dour. 

That seems to be in your head, and not on the screen.

41 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yet her character seems to despise duty and authority. If the story was framed as the heir to throne hating her birthright it would make sense, but as is she hates the duties involved with ruling but only ever wants reaffirmation of her importance in the line of succession.  

She didn't have any many duties as a pampered princess before she was named heir (aside from being cupbearer). And afterwards she is not treated as the heir, i.e. her suggestions are basically ignored.

41 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

She was pissed before Aemma died and Viserys was expecting a son. And she was pissed afterwards when her claim had a challenger. She also confront her uncle because he was threatening her grip on power. 

She was fearing for the health of her mother and she interprets her father's desire for a son as herself being not (likable, loveable) enough - a rather common trait in daughters to this day who realize that their father (or mother) loves their brother more than them, treats them differently, etc. for the sole reason that he is male.

But she loves her father and genuinely wishes for him to have a son because she wants him to be happy. There is bitterness there, too, but that's about the fact that she isn't enough for the old man because she is female, not because she fears to be replaced by a son.

41 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The consistency is that she in only ever not pissed when people are bowing at her feet.

So far nobody ever bowed at her feet, so I'm not sure what you are even talking about there.

41 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

She handpicks Criston Cole absent of her father, and then has him follow her around like a minion due to the fact that he is attractive. This hand selected kingsguard is the only one who follows behind her at all times like a loyal dog she can play with. 

LOL, start watching the show and not talk about the fantasy you are spinning in your head. She picked a KG who impressed her as a fighter. We have no idea if Criston Cole is Rhaenyra's sworn protector at this point, he just took it upon himself as a KG to follow her in the forest. And so far she is not playing with the guy at all, nor is there any indication that she is interested in him because he is 'attractive' - if you rewatch episode 1 she is intrigued by Cole because of the skills he depicts, not his looks since she only sees his face when the jousts are over. And at that time she is already interested.

While she might certainly also like his looks ... they are not the deciding factor why she makes him a KG.

41 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

And so far all Rhaenyra has done is undermine her own claim to power and tried to make a villain out of potential allies. Alicent can only appease this entitled brat for so long.

Alicent went behind Rhaenyra's back. The king eventually asked her not their talks to Rhaenyra ... but that was six months after Aemma's death and those talks started mere days after the death of the queen.

So far Alicent is still Rhaenyra's friend and ally, their relationship is still mostly intact. And we'll have to wait and see who fucks that up.

41 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Rhaenyra (like her father) wants the people who call out her treasonous adulatory to be tortured. Because she is the rightful queen who gets to do whatever she wants and break whatever rules she wants at her own convenience.  

Wait and see whether she is going to do that in the show as well. This is not a thread about FaB ... and to be sure, this wouldn't be a crime when the husband acknowledges the children. And Laenor happened to do this. If he couldn't or wouldn't father children on her they had to do it differently, just as Rhaenys and Visenya may have done to give Aegon the Conqueror 'sons'. They needed heirs.

If you like to be a cuckold in your marriage, the children fathered by another man with your permission are still legally yours. And your stepmother or sibling can do nothing about that.

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That seems to be in your head, and not on the screen. 
 

She doesn’t want the throne? 
 

It doesn’t matter why she wants it, the point is she does. Does she show any reluctance being named heir? No, she is all too happy.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She didn't have any many duties as a pampered princess before she was named heir (aside from being cupbearer). And afterwards she is not treated as the heir, i.e. her suggestions are basically ignored. 
 

She has duties to learn and study with Alicent  (that she ignores).

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She was fearing for the health of her mother and she interprets her father's desire for a son as herself being not (likable, loveable) enough - a rather common trait in daughters to this day who realize that their father (or mother) loves their brother more than them, treats them differently, etc. for the sole reason that he is male.

But she loves her father and genuinely wishes for him to have a son because she wants him to be happy.
 

She is not happy he is having a son. She is not happy he had a son with Aemma or Alicent.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

So far nobody ever bowed at her feet, so I'm not sure what you are even talking about there. 
 

watch the end of episode 1. Since you’ve seen the show you should probably know what I’m talking about.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, start watching the show and not talk about the fantasy you are spinning in your head.  
 

There is literally a scene of her walking through the halls and him trailing behind like a personal minion.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She picked a KG who impressed her as a fighter. We have no idea if Criston Cole is Rhaenyra's sworn protector at this point, he just took it upon himself as a KG to follow her in the forest. And so far she is not playing with the guy at all, nor is there any indication that she is interested in him because he is 'attractive' - if you rewatch episode 1 she is intrigued by Cole because of the skills he depicts, not his looks since she only sees his face when the jousts are over. And at that time she is already interested. 
 

Oh boy. She is intrigued because he is handsome and tries to court her favor. She keeps him around (instead of any other white cloak) because he is her fantasy boyfriend. 
 

Really, watch the show again and tell me she chose him because of some critical assessment and not for sake of her own amusement.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

While she might certainly also like his looks ... they are not the deciding factor why she makes him a KG. 
 

They are the deciding factor for why she interferes with the process to guarantee he is chosen.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Alicent went behind Rhaenyra's back. The king eventually asked her not their talks to Rhaenyra ... but that was six months after Aemma's death and those talks started mere days after the death of the queen. 
 

You know, loyalty to her father and all. That’s a thing.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So far Alicent is still Rhaenyra's friend and ally, their relationship is still mostly intact. And we'll have to wait and see who fucks that up. 
 

Rhaenyra has done everything in her power to mess it up while Alicent has done nothing but defend Rhaenyra. The two are not comparable.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Wait and see whether she is going to do that in the show as well. This is not a thread about FaB ...  

Unless there is a scene where she admits her treason to her father (and which point she would be passed over and the realm saved) she is complicit in these acts.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you like to be a cuckold in your marriage, the children fathered by another man with your permission are still legally yours. And your stepmother or sibling can do nothing about that.

By what laws? They are bastards until she legitimizes them. And she never legitimizes them because she never admits they are bastards. 
 

I wonder how the sea snake, her most important ally, felt about it.

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6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

She doesn’t want the throne? 
 

It doesn’t matter why she wants it, the point is she does. Does she show any reluctance being named heir? No, she is all too happy.

She has duties to learn and study with Alicent  (that she ignores).

She is not happy he is having a son. She is not happy he had a son with Aemma or Alicent.

watch the end of episode 1. Since you’ve seen the show you should probably know what I’m talking about.

There is literally a scene of her walking through the halls and him trailing behind like a personal minion.

Oh boy. She is intrigued because he is handsome and tries to court her favor. She keeps him around (instead of any other white cloak) because he is her fantasy boyfriend. 
 

Really, watch the show again and tell me she chose him because of some critical assessment and not for sake of her own amusement.

They are the deciding factor for why she interferes with the process to guarantee he is chosen.

You know, loyalty to her father and all. That’s a thing.

Rhaenyra has done everything in her power to mess it up while Alicent has done nothing but defend Rhaenyra. The two are not comparable.

Unless there is a scene where she admits her treason to her father (and which point she would be passed over and the realm saved) she is complicit in these acts.

By what laws? They are bastards until she legitimizes them. And she never legitimizes them because she never admits they are bastards. 
 

I wonder how the sea snake, her most important ally, felt about it.

On that last point, @Lord Varysis correct.  Laenor refuses to do his duties as husband, but he acknowledges they are his children. The only alternative is an annulment.

Edited by SeanF
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6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh wow, a lot of people here seem to be very bias towards Rhaenyra.

Definitely not biased towards Rhaenyra, it's bias against rushing to call the two main female characters mentally unstable.  Which, boar-stabbing aside - there's really no evidence of.

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5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

My grandparents, who are in their 80s, mentioned watching this show the other day. They are both GOT fans. My grandmother doesn’t like HOTD, and my grandfather (who’s read all the books) doesn’t seem to either, but he’s hoping it’ll pick up. They didn’t say anything beyond that, but I thought I’d share the anecdote, since I don’t know anyone else who’s watched HOTD.

I was talking to my friend today , she wasn't a GoT fan and never ended up watching the whole thing ,especially that when she finally got to season 4 lately , both me and her boyfriend urged her to stop! but she now really likes HOTD ! funny thing is , we've been discussing on how it was confusing for the audience to see a Velaryon on dragon , turns out for people who know almost nothing of the material , Velaryons are just the other silver head family who have dragons! 

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Any desire to debate the issue was immediately evaporated when the words "treasonous adultery" were used. Rhaenyra is the heir and LAENOR is sleeping around.

Ergo, HE would be the one who would be executed.

Rhaenyra can't be treasonous to adultery because Laenor is HER social inferior.

And Viserys made a decree the children were legitimate and questioning it is punishable by mutiliation. You'd have to be a complete MORON to continue.

Or greedy conspirators making a move against their lawful queen to be.

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

She doesn’t want the throne?

No indication that she does in episode 1. She literally tells her father that Daemon is his heir.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

It doesn’t matter why she wants it, the point is she does. Does she show any reluctance being named heir? No, she is all too happy.

She seems surprised to me, not happy.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

She has duties to learn and study with Alicent  (that she ignores).

LOL, what? She already knows the shit about Nymeria she apparently is supposed to learn.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

She is not happy he is having a son. She is not happy he had a son with Aemma or Alicent.

She point blank tells us that she wants her father to have a son since that's all he ever wanted.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

watch the end of episode 1. Since you’ve seen the show you should probably know what I’m talking about.

Nobody bows at her feet there, but in front of the Iron Throne on which King Viserys I happens to sit. This entire ceremony was neither Rhaenyra's idea nor her decision.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

There is literally a scene of her walking through the halls and him trailing behind like a personal minion.

LOL, KG are personal bodyguards.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh boy. She is intrigued because he is handsome and tries to court her favor. She keeps him around (instead of any other white cloak) because he is her fantasy boyfriend.

That's not how it is presented. She is intrigued by a knight she originally thinks might be a mystery knight. I suggest you stop pretending you can read the mind of the characters on screen.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Really, watch the show again and tell me she chose him because of some critical assessment and not for sake of her own amusement.

She chooses him because he is not a tourney knight but has actual battle experience.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

They are the deciding factor for why she interferes with the process to guarantee he is chosen.

She doesn't interfere with anything. The king commands her and Ser Harrold that she is to choose the new KG.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

You know, loyalty to her father and all. That’s a thing.

Otto Hightower didn't command his daughter to not talk to Rhaenyra about her talks with the king.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

By what laws? They are bastards until she legitimizes them. And she never legitimizes them because she never admits they are bastards.

No, they were born in wedlock and they were acknowledged by Laenor Velaryon, Rhaenyra's husband, as his trueborn children. Children born in wedlock are always legitimate until proven otherwise. Laenor Velaryon either knew or put Rhaenyra up to have sex with Harwin Strong ... and he had no issue with that at all. This is not Cersei cheating on Robert, this is either a couple deciding they have an open marriage and/or a man getting off on the fact that his wife is fucked by another man.

And since nobody lived in Rhaenyra's womb to note whose semen fertilized her eggs down there is just no way to know who is the biological father. But again - this would only matter if Rhaenyra's husband felt cheated.

Quite a few people don't seem to understand the concept of marriage here. Bastards are only children born out of wedlock, i.e. children born to women who lack a husband. Children born in wedlock - Cersei's children included - are trueborn by default. Folks thinking they know better don't change that. Hell, we are not even sure how Robert could have declared them bastards if Cersei and Jaime (or other men she may have slept with) had denied Stannis' accusation. I guess he would have had the Faith declare the entire marriage invalid (that is how Lucamore Strong's children are turned into bastards).

As a king he may have presumed authority to rule on the status of his legal children, sort of like Aegon IV and other kings could legitimize bastards. But as the case of Aemon and Naerys shows even a king cannot declare his heir a bastard on a whim - especially not if he acknowledged him as trueborn son earlier and later named him Prince of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent of the Iron Throne.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

I wonder how the sea snake, her most important ally, felt about it.

We have to wait and see for the show - although it seems the whole 'history doesn't remember blood, it remembers names' line could refer to this thing - meaning he knew about the whole thing and didn't care. He definitely views the boys as his legitimate Velaryon grandsons in FaB as is made clear when he corrects Jace and says that the boys are Velaryons, not Targaryens.

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

On that last point, @Lord Varysis correct.  Laenor refuses to do his duties as husband, but he acknowledges they are his children. The only alternative is an annulment.

I'd imagine that a lord husband - especially a member of the (extended) royal family which comes with even greater power - can choose to decide to not acknowledge his wife's child as his own. But that has then come with an accusation of adultery on the part of the wife and/or a convincing claim that the husband himself never consummated the marriage (although then he would accuse his wife of adultery as soon as he learned that she was pregnant). And then there is going to be some kind of trial. The wife's child cannot be dismissed on a whim.

If that doesn't happen then the fact that we talk about a married couple the child is trueborn by default. That's why the parents married in the first place.

And we see how much leeway folks do have in this regard in the world due to the fact that are no paternity tests, etc. Cersei's issue is not so much the looks of her children - they look like her, after all - but the fact that her marriage is a failure and Robert might use any pretext to get rid of her. If they had had a loving relationship - or a working marriage like Rhaenyra and Laenor - Stannis' accusation would have led nowhere. A loving king and queen could even joke how the king enjoys his wife being

But we also get things like Princess Elaena's magical posthumous Plumm son or Lady Footly passing Jon Roxton's bastard as her husband's trueborn son ... and nobody stopping that from happening. Hell, the Lannisters even feel they have to take care that Jeyne Westerling remains unwed for months after Robb's death to prevent her from passing a future child as Robb's posthumous heir. One should believe that her getting pregnant 2-3 months after the Red Wedding should be enough. But it isn't, because people in this world are willing to believe all kind of crazy things.

People usually do have to believe what women tell the world about the paternity of their children - and it is the same with Laenor's children (both Rhaenyra's children and the Hull boys).

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1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Any desire to debate the issue was immediately evaporated when the words "treasonous adultery" were used. Rhaenyra is the heir and LAENOR is sleeping around.

Ergo, HE would be the one who would be executed.

Rhaenyra can't be treasonous to adultery because Laenor is HER social inferior.

And Viserys made a decree the children were legitimate and questioning it is punishable by mutiliation. You'd have to be a complete MORON to continue.

Or greedy conspirators making a move against their lawful queen to be.

Strictly speaking, sex with another man most likely does not constitute adultery.  In fact, it may be the rule that a man can only commit adultery with a married woman.

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43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No indication that she does in episode 1. She literally tells her father that Daemon is his heir. 
 

That was a: ‘but I thought Daemon was your heir’ not a ‘Daemon should be your heir’. 
 

What people think is can be different from the way they think it ought to be. And Rhaenyra never defends Daemon’s claim, in fact she rides a dragon to dragonstone for the distinct purpose of opposing that claim.

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She seems surprised to me, not happy. 
 

She’s smiling and smug. Her father has finally accepted her, she is thrilled. 
 

Come on Lord Varys, Rhaenyra embracing the role with open arms is an accepted fact and given her rebellious attitude she wasn’t doing it for sake if duty (if she didn’t want it she’d tell Viserys to F off).

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, what? She already knows the shit about Nymeria she apparently is supposed to learn. 
 

She has zero discipline or interests in her duty and dreams about flying off. And yet she also wants to inherit her father’s business. 
 

Not in service of the realm, but from a belief that the throne is hers to do with what she will. She is the worst combination of a free spirit and an ambitious social climber. She wants power and the freedom to do whatever she wants.

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She point blank tells us that she wants her father to have a son since that's all he ever wanted. 
 

Except when he had a son, both times. As long as the son represents a challenge to her power, she’d always hate the idea.

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody bows at her feet there, but in front of the Iron Throne on which King Viserys I happens to sit. This entire ceremony was neither Rhaenyra's idea nor her decision. 
 

In front of the throne, at her feet. And she is very pleased by it all, in fact she flaunts around the fact that they swore fealty to her in front of Rhaenys.

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, KG are personal bodyguards. 
 

And it’s Cole that follows her around, not the other guards.

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's not how it is presented. She is intrigued by a knight she originally thinks might be a mystery knight. I suggest you stop pretending you can read the mind of the characters on screen. 
 

Yes, and that intrigue adds to the attraction. And when he offers her the flower (or whatever it was) their was a courting go on (even while Alicent gossips with her about the scandalous detail that he is Dornish).

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She chooses him because he is not a tourney knight but has actual battle experience. 
 

You know, people say things with ulterior motives. You have to read the subtext. If he was an old ugly brute would she take interest? 
No? Then why does she care?

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She doesn't interfere with anything. The king commands her and Ser Harrold that she is to choose the new KG. 
 

As a formality. She interferes by rejecting the obvious choice and deciding upon the man who was courting her and she had an attraction to. 

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Otto Hightower didn't command his daughter to not talk to Rhaenyra about her talks with the king. 
 

Again, subtext. Talking to Rhaenyra would end the friendship and go against her father’s wants. 

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, they were born in wedlock and they were acknowledged by Laenor Velaryon, Rhaenyra's husband, as his trueborn children. Children born in wedlock are always legitimate until proven otherwise.
 

We know it’s not true.

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 Laenor Velaryon either knew or put Rhaenyra up to have sex with Harwin Strong ... and he had no issue with that at all.
 

It is fraud against the kingdom because this secret is never openly legitimized. Which is why they (Viserys and Rhaenyra) torture anyone who dare claims the truth. 
 

There is a reason they don’t come out and claim the true parentage and legitimize them officially. They are just asking for rumors to spread and further a antagonizing potential allies to the throne.

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

.

 

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

.

And Viserys made a decree the children were legitimate and questioning it is punishable by mutiliation. You'd have to be a complete MORON to continue.

Or greedy conspirators making a move against their lawful queen to be.

There it is with the double standard. If there was nothing wrong with Strong fathering the future heirs to the throne Viserys and Rhaenyra would openly admit it instead of torturing people who say the truth. 
 

That is what turned people against the ‘realm’s delight’. If you can’t win support and torture and kill people who disagree with you then you provoke rebellion against your claim.

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Definitely not biased towards Rhaenyra, it's bias against rushing to call the two main female characters mentally unstable.  Which, boar-stabbing aside - there's really no evidence of.

Alicent was called crazy first when she is between the two far more rational and kind.

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21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Strictly speaking, sex with another man most likely does not constitute adultery.  In fact, it may be the rule that a man can only commit adultery with a married woman.

These aren't rules, they're norms.  And I think CT Phipps' point is those norms are upended when Rhaenyra is the heir apparent.

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Alicent was called crazy first when she is between the two far more rational and kind.

Again, my comment was more about discussing both Alicent and Rhaenyra in the context of being emotionally/mentally "unstable."  There's no reason to do that - at least not yet.  We usually don't contextualize the discussions about Viserys and Daemon in terms of their mental stability, even though there's almost certainly more legitimate reason to do so just based on the first three episodes.

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37 minutes ago, DMC said:

These aren't rules, they're norms.  And I think CT Phipps' point is those norms are upended when Rhaenyra is the heir apparent.

Again, my comment was more about discussing both Alicent and Rhaenyra in the context of being emotionally/mentally "unstable."  There's no reason to do that - at least not yet.  We usually don't contextualize the discussions about Viserys and Daemon in terms of their mental stability, even though there's almost certainly more legitimate reason to do so just based on the first three episodes.

The comment thread started with this post from CT Phipps:

On 9/10/2022 at 3:59 PM, C.T. Phipps said:

Given the way the older actress talks about her role and Cersei Lannister I think we're going to see Alicent go from being a sweet and otherwise normal young woman to a complete nutjob. The events triggering this being Aemond's blinding and her isolation at court.

Possibly the fact her children are psychopathic entitled little shits too.

Rhaenyra spared Alicent but she also DOES kill her father.

Why is Alicent given that role when the only one acting like a potential nutjob between the two is Rhaenyra. 

Putting aside the context of the terms- 

Rhaenyra is both obsessed with her right to rule AND her freedom to do whatever she wants. 

Fundamentally her character is broken and very much prone (as is suggested by F&B) to emotional outbursts. Does that make her insane? No. But fire & blood (Martin) was the one that depicted her as jealous and emotionally crazy during the war whilst Daemon is busy calming her down and fighting the war with a patient and deliberate approach. 

If those sexist undertones bleed into the argument, don't blame me.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

If those sexist undertones bleed into the argument, don't blame me.  

No, I blame you.  Because you're the one that has been focusing on it for the last couple pages.  CT Phipps' comment was in relation to the actress that plays the elder Alicent comparing her role to Cersei.  In that context it makes much more sense to refer to her eventually becoming a "complete nutjob."  Your argumentation and language, OTOH, is demonstrably more preoccupied with discussing Rhaenyra's mental stability and/or her being a "bitch," and it's quite unbecoming.

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41 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, I blame you.  Because you're the one that has been focusing on it for the last couple pages.  CT Phipps' comment was in relation to the actress that plays the elder Alicent comparing her role to Cersei.  In that context it makes much more sense to refer to her eventually becoming a "complete nutjob."  Your argumentation and language, OTOH, is demonstrably more preoccupied with discussing Rhaenyra's mental stability and/or her being a "bitch," and it's quite unbecoming.

Alicent's actress (Olivia Cooke) did not imply her character was a nut job, she said she loved Cersei from the show which is why she liked the comparison. And the show did not (minus the sept explosion) depict Cersei as a nutjob, that was the books. 

People already imply the worse about Alicent, so I made the point if either of them deserve to be called a nutjob it is not her. 

And then my arguments didn't mention that term again. You're putting a lot of emphasis onto the or in and/or given that my arguments after that initial post don't mention Rhaenyra as mentally unstable (the other word has a different meaning). So no, I haven't been focusing on it for the last couple of pages.

But seriously, I already gave my arguments extensively, and people here are heavily bias towards Rhaenyra (as is much of the fandom elsewhere. The blacks are much more popular than the greens). You deciding to single yourself out to take issue with my language is fine, but rejecting the premise that people (not specifically you) are showing bias towards her is not accurate. 

 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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Also, @DMC since we are policing language, the person, Lord Varys, I was arguing with said this about Alicent (when I said she was behaving normally). 

"Alicent is clearly not emotionally stable in the show

Now I don't mind (though I disagree). But since this language is disturbing to you then perhaps it worth considering that I wasn't the only one promoting such framing.

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12 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Alicent's actress (Olivia Cooke) did not imply her character was a nut job, she said she loved Cersei from the show which is why she liked the comparison. And the show did not (minus the sept explosion) depict Cersei as a nutjob, that was the books. 

It's true that book Cersei is depicted as more crazy than show Cersei, but that doesn't mean the latter wasn't still depicted as crazy.  C'mon.  "Minus the sept explosion" where she instantly killed hundreds of people is a ludicrous omission.  Anyway, the point isn't about how crazy Cersei was, but just that such a comparison obviously suggests some "mental instability" - and moreover it's talking about how Alicent WILL EVENTUALLY be depicted, not how she is now.

13 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

You deciding to single yourself out to take issue with my language is fine, but rejecting the premise that people (not specifically you) are showing bias towards her is not accurate. 

I never rejected that premise, I'm just not interested in the argument.  Is the show biased towards Rhaenyra?  Yep, I mentioned all the hart business made that clear in the beginning of this thread.  Will that make viewers inclined to have a bias towards Rhaenyra?  Yep.  Are some posters particularly biased towards Rhaenyra - myself included?  Yep.  Although - I also really like Alicent right now and it's certainly the case that at least by episode three she's acting like the far more mature one between the two. 

Which gets to my original point that I've repeated twice now - I like how the show has made BOTH Rhaenyra and Alicent very three dimensional and empathetic characters thus far; and further there's no reason to question either's mental stability at this point outside of Rhaenyra going crazy on the boar (which I don't think was indicative of mental instability either, but we haven't even gotten to that argument).

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Also, @DMC since we are policing language

To be clear, I'm not trying to police your language, I'm saying your argumentation and language is quite unbecoming to me.  You are of course free to do so, but I'm also free to point out I find it pretty gross.  And you're absolutely right, it certainly wasn't just you on the "mental stability" aspect.  But as for LV, well, I realized nothing I could say would ever get through to him back during the Obama administration.

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5 minutes ago, DMC said:

It's true that book Cersei is depicted as more crazy than show Cersei, but that doesn't mean the latter wasn't still depicted as crazy.  C'mon.  "Minus the sept explosion" where she instantly killed hundreds of people is a ludicrous omission.  

I think you are underestimating how many show watchers loved Cersei and thought she was a great character absent of being a lunatic. The sept was bad writing as no one (not even her) shows a real reaction or interpretable change to the event.  

My family (no book readers) loved Cersei unironically, and Olivia is like them, which is why she liked the comparisons. 

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

I never rejected that premise, I'm just not interested in the argument.  Is the show biased towards Rhaenyra?  Yep, I mentioned all the hart business made that clear in the beginning of this thread.  Will that make viewers inclined to have a bias towards Rhaenyra?  Yep.  Are some posters particularly biased towards Rhaenyra - myself included?  Yep.  Although - I also really like Alicent right now and it's certainly the case that at least by episode three she's acting like the far more mature one between the two.  

I think the show wants us to like Rhaenyra with all the mic drop moments (similar to Daenerys) but she (to me) comes off as bossy and unlikable. 

And not in a multifaceted way where characters have flaws, etc. It comes across as shallow (to me) because they are trying to achieve two things: 

1. Write a character who wants and defends her claim to power 

2. Write a character that is a free spirit unshackled by duty and decorum 

You can have character development that leads from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 1 but you can't have both at the same time. When they do she just comes off as a bad unlikable person. 

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

To be clear, I'm not trying to police your language, I'm saying your argumentation and language is quite unbecoming to me.  

I'll refrain from using the B word as much. Though that is how I think of the show's representation of the character so far. And probably well into the future if she and the king start cutting out tongues.  

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Just now, butterweedstrover said:

I think you are underestimating how many show watchers loved Cersei and thought she was a great character absent of being a lunatic.

I think you're overestimating how much I care what certain aspects of the fandom felt about certain characters, which is none.  If you don't think the show depicted Cersei as at least somewhat crazy in her villainy, you're simply wrong, no matter how many people agree with you.

And while the sept scene might have been "bad writing" in the long run, it was an absolutely brilliant sequence.  I still love watching that just for the score.

5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

And not in a multifaceted way where characters have flaws, etc. It comes across as shallow (to me) because they are trying to achieve two things: 

1. Write a character who wants and defends her claim to power 

2. Write a character that is a free spirit unshackled by duty and decorum 

I think they're trying to depict a 17 year old who has been incredibly privileged and pampered her entire life first have being named heir and secondly being pressured into marriage being thrust upon her - all the while her father finally has the son he always wanted and subsequently the entire male nobility assumes she will be supplanted.  That's a lot going on, and it's complex, and I think the show and Alcock have handled it brilliantly.  And you can disagree with all that all you like, again, I'm not interested in that argument.  All I'm saying is virtually none of it suggests mental or emotional instability.

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