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[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion


Ran
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1 minute ago, briantw said:

He sends help because Alicent legitimately convinces him that it's the right thing to do, but all Daemon can see is the attempt to upstage him.

I mean, I guess maybe we'll see next week - and I totally agree with your general point about Viserys' genuine efforts as opposed to how they're interpreted - but I'm not even sure Viserys' intentions factored into it at all for Daemon.  His motivation was he wanted to win without his brother's help, even if it meant courting death.

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On further reflection, here are a couple of things that I think that would have improved the episode:

  • It would have been cool if, by the end (perhaps during Otto and Alicent's conversation), it had been revealed that Otto had actually planted a white hart in the forest, as a strategy to manipulate Viserys into naming Aegon his heir.
  • Laenor should have claimed Seasmoke during the episode (offscreen). In the War Council someone should have demanded that Rhaenys joined the fight, and after Corlys had said no to that, Daemon could have remembered that Laenor had Targ blood and there were some young unclaimed wild dragons around Dragonstone. It would be easier to believe that the Triarchy had resisted two years against the Velaryons if they had only one dragon, and it would also make for a more sound battle strategy: once Daemon alone approached Crabfedder, the pirates would have reason to believe that no dragon would join the battle, giving them a reason to come out in the open in masse.
Edited by The hairy bear
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6 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

It would have been cool if, by the end (perhaps during Otto and Alicent's conversation), it had been revealed that Otto had actually planted a white hart in the forest, as a strategy to manipulate Viserys into naming Aegon his heir.

Sounds like a clever ploy.  But, if the ep subsequently played out as it Otto would look pretty stupid/incompetent for planting the hart and then not having his hunters be able to catch it (again?).

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7 minutes ago, DMC said:

Sounds like a clever ploy.  But, if the ep subsequently played out as it Otto would look pretty stupid/incompetent for planting the hart and then not having his hunters be able to catch it (again?).

This is a much more overtly fantasy series than Game of Thrones.

There was a white hart here to honor the true king's heir.

It was just not Aegon.

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I guess you could imagine some scenario where what happens is that Otto has hunters plant it there, Rhaenyra and Cole end up stumbling across a party of men who are clearly Otto's who are keeping it penned up until a pre-arranged time when they'll release it for Viserys's hunters to find, then they scare them off  and let it go early... or, hell, Rhaenyra has Cole kill it, I guess, and they can come in bringing in the hart themselves.

But it's very convoluted and has too many people involved. The way it works now is fine, he's seizing at straws to try and nudge Viserys but he's not going to launch an elaborate plot, since it would have too obvious implications if caught.

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

First thing's first, I cannot believe that when Viserys asked Jason if he had any dragons to offer, he didn't respond with "gold ones." It was such a perfect set-up, the screenwriters are dolts for skipping it.

I was sure as hell that was going to be his answer. Maybe he only said in his mind to not further enrage the King.

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3 minutes ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I was sure as hell that was going to be his answer. Maybe he only said in his mind to not further enrage the King.

Had the same thought that he should have replied that, but the obvious retort from Viserys is if Jason thought he was in need of gold, just as he questioned whether Jason believed he was in need of strength. Would have been nice if Jason had looked like he was about to say something and then thought better of it.

As with others, I quite like Tyland and Jason. Jefferson Hall's doing a fine job of characterizing them differently. Quite a ways up from poor Ser Hugh of the Vale.

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If this episode was bereft of that sorry war getting sorrier deception it would have been great.

Daemon should die for his reckleness not rewarded. And those Velaryon wigs look more bad in motion. The wigs are just too much to take them seriously.And old Corlys joining fight instead maintaining command and distance?Not to mention how Larys Strong keeps reminding of Velaryons kids being pure Valyrian. 

The war should have been seperate episode with insight from some of its start to termination with explaination of Laenor getting Seasmoke & from what means? Could have really added scene of Viserys getting news of little Laena claiming Vhagar and his court getting real alarmed & pushing more for Laenor match for his daughter. And next showing the little one riding Vhagar seen by her mother with proud smile,while talking about the war with her ladies in High Tide.

Then 2-3yrs time fruther. Tired of  slow war, both get summoned & join Daemon & Laenor by scorching those stones,ships & crabs.

But we instead we get stupid scene alike from S6-8. Never understood adoration for battle of real bastard vs fake bastard. Maybe people still like stupid clichè.. with  weird take of "brave  & balls of steel" Daemon and all.

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I generally agree with the folks who say that this was the "weakest" episode of the season, but frankly its 10x better than all but 2 episodes in the last 2.5 seasons of GoT.

What I liked:

The ... Madness(?) of King Viserys I: The show did a fantastic job of showing the conflict of Viserys and they slid it between the multiple layers the show already left for us- is he the glutton from the books? Is he an anguished ruler trapped between the games of the realm and the conflict of his family? Is he a dying man? Is he an old man wrecked by the decisions of his past and the lack of clear future?  Or has the madness of the Targaryens taking its hold? We don't know.  There are signals and clues, but nothing concrete that lets us definitively choose.  When he is facing the Lannister lord or his daughter or ranting in public or killing the stag he has his problems and his idiosyncrasies that are not easily defined.  And he is crippled by all of it. 

Unlike Dany, the show is - in just 3 episodes - given us more to chew on that leaves a clear answer.  And its great.  The viewer is no better off than the lord who hears his Kings start bellowing that his daughter is driving him crazy.  Meanwhile he is beset by lords and courtiers and his own Hand who run to him with problems, requests and schemes.  All the while he is haunted by his dead wife and living son and daughter.  As happy as Viserys should be- a realm in its absolute opulence, his brother in a conlfict of his own making and his people applauding him whenever he is seen - he is miserable.  And he should be. 

And he also may be crazy,  Make no mistake, the Targ madness takes many forms.  If you remove the dragons, replace Hightower with Tywin Lannister and give his realm more trouble... that could be opening of Aerys' madness.  Subtle and sinister and harder and harder to ignore. 

And all the while, his family and his realm ... seems like it would drive anyone to drink.  I think the show has done a fantastic job of questioning what's going on and leaving everyone- the characters and the viewers - to guess.  At their peril. 

A Realm of Splendor: George RR Martin, during GoT, was under the lock of a Non-Disparagement agreement that ultimately ended in him making excuses for rape scenes and not writing episodes.  But one of the very few negative things he said was that the hunting scene in season 1 of GoT was ridiculous -- a King hunting in the KIngswood would have a MASSIVE retinue around him at all times.  Instead its R0bert, Barristan, a cup-bearer and hardly anything else trapsing in the woods like lost tourists.  

Not House of Dragons.  The King has retainers, horse bearers, guards, riders, dogs, kennel masters and companions as far as the eye can see.  When he throws a small gathering, there are multiple roasted boars and all the trappings that would put Fogo de Chao the shame.  People give him gaudy gifts; he is surrounded by drink, food, silk, maesters and minions at all times.  This is a healthy, vibrant Empire that acts and looks like it.  Its amazing.  

The Whispers Of Other People's Mouths: Otto Hightower has 2 scenes and they are incredible- he says things to his daughter to make her act and she acts with purpose and deftness.  The Valarions are far away but Lord Strong seems to be doing their work for them. The Lannisters are bold and it costs them.  The women sit by the side and crack wise, just to have the Princess defend her KIng; almost like she were the Queen already.  This was a subtle reminder of how well the show has characters stay under the radar, but they are still there, doing the work of hiding truer intentions.  Its special to watch.  EVERY character seems to have a touch of Varys and Littlefinger and it works.  

The Bloody Princess: I loved how Rhaenyra is being portrayed as somebody who is trying to slip loose from the binds of her station, and it was no better than when she rides back into camp covered in the dried blood of the boar to shock, bemusement and maybe respect of those of the realm.  Here you have a female character being portrayed with strength and prowess in a manner that would have been ruined by lesser writers (**cough**Rings of Power **cough**).  This is somebody who is stuck in her place who is fighting to break free.  And while that scene was great, the scene with her Father when he lets her marry who she wants shows her strength and resignation.  This is deft and strong writing. 

What I am on the Fence About: 

The Battle of the Stepstones:  I repeat what others have said- this seemed utterly unrealistic for what they had set already.  This was a simple plan that even something like the Crab Feeder should have seen coming.  Prince Daemon is a great fighter, but here it strained credulity what was happening - he springs an obvious traps, kills like 10 guys, dodges 3x as many arrows and he gets to a position that is perfect to save him while both his army AND his dragon go unnoticed.  It was ... fine... I guess and sort of cool but almost a slap to the face.  Now, I liked how he took Viserys' offer of assistance - he was not going to let his brother poach his glory.  I liked that.  But the battle seemed to be a battle for a battle's sake and not to advance the plot.  

CGI Overload: I thought this episode was the worst use of CGI - the stags looked like jelly; the first scene on the step stones was reminiscent of the Battle of Winetrfell - too dark and too fake.  I think this was unnecessary and distracting whenever it was on the screen, but I also understand why they are doing it. 

The Unseen Casterly Rock: If you are going to point out how AMAZING something is to look at ... you kinda have to show it, not just say it.  Yes... even with mediocre CGI (or don't mention it).  

What I Did Not Like:

Time Is Not An Enemy: I was uncertain how I would think about the show fast-forwarding X years each episode, but its a miss as of now.  The Princess is unchanged in her feelings and attitudes towards the King and Queen 3 years later?  Its as if time moved but she stood still.  That's not compelling nor good storytelling.  She comes off as petulant and bitter when she is more than that.  Further, the story would have more nuance.  And the Stepstones has been frozen for 3 years? Not buying it.   The show is sacrificing realism for efficiency and its hurting the narrative.  I hope they do it better in episodes to come because I believe its not going anywhere.  

 

 

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5 hours ago, zajaz said:

The writers say that 'these big royal hunts were another way to really show the decadence of this particular time', and I'm like: What? You guys do realize that royal hunts were a huge hobby for kings during the Middle Ages, right? Even a kingdom that was not 'decadent' had these every once and a while.

House of the Dragon seems like a show that really loves it's source material but at the same time it doesn't fully understand it either. This is how I feel about it after the first three episodes.

They got the hunt right this time - unlike in S01E07 in the original series, the entire court accompanies the king in the hunt, this was one of the things GRRM himself has complained about back in the day when he still did that.

But I do not think the white hart symbolism in this episode works very well. In A Game of Thrones, Robert goes to hunt the white hart but the wolves get it before him. This mirrors the image from when Robb and Jon find the direwolf that is killed by a stag. In folklores the white hart represents many different things, including being a messenger from the otherworld. So Robert hunting and not capturing the white hart fits the story thematically very well in many ways. In this episode, the white hart worked thematically well until we actually saw it and then Rhaenyra told ser Crispin to not hurt it. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, zajaz said:

Also, the writers said that Daemon's little act should have resulted in nothing but his death, had the cavalry not arrived at that exact moment. Now, I'll give the writers a pass because we are only starting, but I hope this GoT's trend does not come over to this show. Having a main character going rambo and then, when apparently he / she is about to die, the reinforcements arrive in the nick of time.

I disagree, I think people should be harsh to criticize the show. One of the things that lead to the abysmal last seasons of Game of Thrones was people forgiving the show writers again and again because they believed that eventually things will make sense in some way. No more sunk cost fallacy.

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4 hours ago, Chancho said:

God this retarded fightscene broke It for me, ALL that money and the writing of a battle is the biggest John rambo cliche of all. Pathetic.

IS Just too much tô ask tô not being treated like a braindead chump looking tô a shiny tv.

TAke Care and have Fun you ALL.

I agree that action scenes aren't the show's strongest aspect. First episode had that badly edited sequence of the gold cloaks maiming criminals(?) and now this episode ended with a messy battle. The court scenes own the show at the moment. 

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I think the tremendous challenge of covering 20 years in the space of 10 episodes does give them, for me, some leeway in cutting narrative corners. The real proof in the pudding will be the final couple of episodes, and more importantly the next season when there's no more substantial time skipping and instead they need to tell the story of the Dance from its start to its finish.

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8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

First thing's first, I cannot believe that when Viserys asked Jason if he had any dragons to offer, he didn't respond with "gold ones." It was such a perfect set-up, the screenwriters are dolts for skipping it.

I found myself thinking the exact same thing ! they were subverting expectations I suppose:P

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all in all , I found this episode to be weaker than previous ones , although , I'm not sure it's because I was more excited for this one beforehand or not . 

this episode certainly had positive points as well as negative ones . I initially wanted to talk about positive aspects as well, but I see that my complains went on more than I intended , and they all go back to editing , one way or the other.

  • it felt like two episodes . they should have put some  stepstone +crabfeeder scenes in the middle of the hunting/feast scenes . I liked the shift between war in stepstones and feast's extravagant table very much . it showed perfectly well why it's a good idea for Viserys to support the war.... too bad the show went on to finish hunting episode before visiting stepstones . 
  • the tone of the show has become gloomy far too soon . yes , Aemma died in episode one and all, but this felt like it was closing to the end. 
  • they both failed Laenor and did him justice if that makes any sense ! I get that they wanted to show Laenor as Rhaenyra's suitable match by showing him speaking in their council and later attack atop Seasmoke , only to later show he is gay and the marriage would be doomed. they should have introduced Laenor by name in episode one when Corlys talked about Rhaenys already having a son . now that they didn't, they should have had Strong mention his most important advantage : he already rides a dragon ! dragon riding ability must be a HUGE deal when it comes to marriages . the reason Velaryons are as big of a threat as they are is that they also have dragons . Lannisters and any other who want to marry Rhaenyra will become a third dragon riding family! then they go on to the war council where Laenor is supposed to be established as a warrior (which could be edited right after talk of him by Strong by the way!) . but we do not really see him well enough , the focus is on Daemon! 
  • the whole stepstone sequence is a huge failure . I'm not going to say anything about Daemon's plot armor  and the Crab disappointment as only by reading the first page of this thread , I see that it's been discussed enough! the thing with the step stones is that it's been build up, build up, build up for 3 episodes and then a jump right into the conclusion ! there's no middle ! we don't see why Daemon and Velaryons are so frustrated and overwhelmed , we don't see how Daemon is the reason they're losing . we don't see why Vaemond goes behind Corlys's back to send a letter to Viserys himself . we only hear about them ! but that is good enough because we don't EVEN HEAR why the hell Corlys allied himself with Daemon ! we don't see any gold cloaks or men specifically loyal to Daemon . there are all Velaryon men with Velaryon commanders and Velaryon dragon and then there's Daemon , Corlys's "teenager" adopted son with his odd pet ,who is causing them losses through his tantrums !
  • also , let's talk about Laena Velaryon and the most terrible dragon of the time . where are they? I mean ... I'm cool with not showing Laena claiming Vhaegar ;considering later Aemond scene , it would have been repetitive . but man , they needed to show or mention that Laena rides Vhaegar now . they could either put her in Driftmark to hear about Stepstones and pull an episode2 Rhaenyra to take her dragon to trouble without leave  , or they could put her in the court to show us she and Rhaenyra start bonding . but more easily , Strong could mention her in his little advice :" with Vhaegar under lady Laena's command and Laenor riding his own full grown dragon , an alliance with Velaryons is more crucial than ever "

 

 

my positive points all go to the Greens . as much of a Black supporter that I am , it's good to see they try to show Green councilors (Alicent , Tyland ,Larys , even to a certain surprising extend Otto ) as good guys and , in case of Tyland , possessing a brain and empathy for the realm. although , I preferred very much for Alicent to suggest Aegon and Rhaenyra's match after talking with her father about Aegon's rights, torn between what her faith has taught her to be her son's right and her faith in her old friend . 

 

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