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[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion


Ran
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I enjoyed the episode bar the John Wick imitation from Dæmon.

I feel they did a poor job introducing Lænor and seasmoke especially from the non-booker reader perspective.

I'm enjoying them introducing the new characters of the other houses. The lannisters are a welcomed addition. 

 

 

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Yeah I wish the Daemon solo sprint had been shorter. And his reinforcements bailed him out quicker.
Kinda agree about Laenor/Seasmoke needing a little better of an intro. My brother asked me who it was when he appeared. I did enjoy how excited Laenor was on dragonback. 
Lyonel Strong has been great last couple weeks. Was nice to see the clubfoot as well. 

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I take back my words from last week about the lack of comedy on this show, the last several minutes of the episode were one of the funniest things I've watched in a while. Such a hilariously nonsensical action scene and a completely idiotic plan. OK, the comedy was unintentional, but I'll take what I can get at this point.

How were the Crabfeeder forces winning the war by hiding into the caves, BTW? This doesn't make sense.

Anyway, the episode was stunning visually and it's clear they have spent their massive budget well when it comes to stuff like sets and SFX, but apart from I wasn't particularly impressed. I am struggling to find a reason to care about the struggle for power between a bunch of entitled, privileged and whiny jerks, none of whom has a partially interesting personality. To be fair, this was an issue in the book source too, but that was basically a resume of the historical events, not a real novel. The show is supposed to flesh out the characters more, but for me it's not really succeeding.

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5 minutes ago, David Selig said:

How were the Crabfeeder forces winning the war by hiding into the caves, BTW? This doesn't make sense.

The dragons can't get in and when the dragons leave because of food or exhaustion, the Crabfeeder comes back to attack the Velaryon ships and troops.

The exact same way the Dornish won.

Plus, House Velaryon and Daemon's forces are nowhere near as rich or as powerful as the Triarchy. Three cities of Essos.

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9 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The dragons can't get in and when the dragons leave because of food or exhaustion, the Crabfeeder comes back to attack the Velaryon ships and troops.

The exact same way the Dornish won.

Plus, House Velaryon and Daemon's forces are nowhere near as rich or as powerful as the Triarchy. Three cities of Essos.

I feel like they didn't put enough time to show that though . of course, we know it because we love the material and pay close attention to what they say . but as I said earlier , for it to be a better episode especially for the new audience , they should have spent more time on Stepstones and Velaryon/Daemon's endeavors. it would not only have helped the war scenes A LOT , but it also would have been better on character levels for Daemon , Laenor and Vaemond . right now ,we only know Daemon has issues , well , show us how frustrated he is by his failure that he hits a messenger like that or runs to his suicide . we don't properly know who is this guy shouting "Dracarys!" and we do not know if Vaemond had always been this whining prick or it's the war's toll on him. 

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34 minutes ago, David Selig said:

How were the Crabfeeder forces winning the war by hiding into the caves, BTW? This doesn't make sense.

Pure attrition appears to be the idea. They were outlasting the ability of the Velaryons and Daemon to fight them effectively, to the point where they depended on more ships arriving from weeks away. Think of it like a siege: the Triarchy was besieged but holding out, the besiegers were starting to buckle under the logistics strain and might have to back down to regroup.

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I didn't mind Daemon's ridiculous scene too much. It is completely in line with his showing at the tourney and in the standoff with Otto. He has all the confidence and arrogance of a man boy prince with a dragon that knows he is worth more alive than dead, whether to pirates or to the Triarchy. Now, maybe they would have had no trouble killing him, but I think this ridiculous show of arrogance is in line with the character they established.

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I was a little disheartened to read a post in this thread saying that this season will cover about twenty years before all is said and done. I knew there would be a big time jump (because some of the actresses will be replaced), but does this mean there's going to be a time-jump every episode? Is the show this season constantly going to have to supply mountains of exposition each episode to re-establish the political situation, as it's developed since we last saw the characters?

If yes, I worry that this is a fundamentally flawed season of TV. And I wonder why they didn't either start later in the timeline or make some serious adaptation choices to shorten the timeline.

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5 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

If yes, I worry that this is a fundamentally flawed season of TV. And I wonder why they didn't either start later in the timeline or make some serious adaptation choices to shorten the timeline.

Every episode through the first 6 has a jump. I fully expect a jump for 7 and a jump for 8, but after that I suspect 9 and 10 will take place without jumps, and then assume S2 will be jump free.

 

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6 minutes ago, Ran said:

Every episode through the first 6 has a jump. I fully expect a jump for 7 and a jump for 8, but after that I suspect 9 and 10 will take place without jumps, and then assume S2 will be jump free.

This season appears to be all about setting the stage for the conflicts of the next few seasons.  We're getting introduced to all the players, all their petty rivalries and grievances, and pieces are being put in motion to oppose (or support) each other down the line.  Much like the first season of Game of Thrones set up the War of the Five Kings and everything else that followed.

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20 minutes ago, briantw said:

This season appears to be all about setting the stage for the conflicts of the next few seasons.  

Next couple of seasons. There are only three seasons which means there are only two seasons left after this. 

Few is three or more, so the following seasons cannot amount to a few. 

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12 hours ago, zajaz said:

Also, the writers said that Daemon's little act should have resulted in nothing but his death, had the cavalry not arrived at that exact moment. Now, I'll give the writers a pass because we are only starting, but I hope this GoT's trend does not come over to this show. Having a main character going rambo and then, when apparently he / she is about to die, the reinforcements arrive in the nick of time.

Isn't this just Asoiaf in general?

Battle of the Bells, Battle at the Wall, Blackwater... Martin has always been fan of the Rohirrim.

I agree with the rest that this was the weakest episode by far, it wasn't bad per se but the first two were really good and this just lacks.

I was also kinda surprised when Laenor appeared with his dragon and I agree that they should have explained it to non readers than the Targs aren't the only ones with the cool toys at the moment.

An enjoyable episode but that's about it for me.

I did like how Hobert Hightower presses his brother into action tho, that was a nice touch.

I do agree that it'd have been better for the plot for this to be episode 6-7 than episode three... I can't blame them for wanting to race to the war, especially since very few people had any positive expectations for this show, but the characters are suffering because of this.

Laenor was never seen on the battlefield, I wonder if he'll be like Loras in the books.

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They were a little too coy with Laenor's dragon, but that said, when they're discussing battle plans, they explicitly mention dragons, plural, and their battle map has two models (jaw bones of some animal, apparently, giving a wing appearance) which we know are dragons as they make a point of moving one when talking of Caraxes.

Just an off-the-cuff line from Laenor suggesting that maybe he could take Seasmoke and do something would have been good. Maybe they had some material they cut? Who knows.

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30 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

It’s not confirmed to be only 3 is it? Feel like four would make more sense

I read somewhere that the plan was three to four seasons.  I'm guessing they'll assess how far they've gotten after writing season two and plan accordingly. 

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10 hours ago, DMC said:

I think Viserys' reticence there was more at the surprise they didn't find the white hart.  It goes into his whole "dreamer" speech and why he was getting wasted - as he tells Alicent and later Rhaenyra he was doubting his choice of heir but when the white hart didn't materialize he was reaffirmed for Rhaenyra.  As I mentioned elsewhere, his reliance on the symbolism of the hart was my only real complaint about this episode.  I get that he's obsessed with history and the prophecy of his house - I like that aspect in general - but it still seems a little much.

Actually, I think the symbolism stuff was more Otto grasping at straws. Viserys himself never talks about the hart symbolism. He just feels conflicted about things because of his earlier dream, because he finally has what he always thought he wanted ... but he knows that he already has the heir he wants with Rhaenyra.

His best moments there are when he makes it clear that Rhaenyra wasn't named heir on a whim. Back then he was kind of pushed into it by the circumstances ... but he always loved his daughter very much, and even more so after her mother died thanks to his desire for a son, so there is actually no real chance that he would ever change his mind on that question.

9 hours ago, RumHam said:

I just mean that as much as everyone here might love Fire and Blood: The Series it's understandable they wanted to base the show on a war and not like, the regency.

The point is that they really a burning the potential for a lot character development scene - both for the main characters as well as the featured extras like Laenor and Laena who are now only there for a couple of scenes to then die. And keep in mind that Alicent's children and Rhaenyra's sons will also have very little time to mature ... and then some of them start to die like flies as well. Having two seasons on the buildup could have worked better, especially if they had played things so that civil war was more or less in the air the entire time, just involving different factions. The Velaryons, Daemon, etc. could have been so cross with the king at times that things were looking as if they could stage a coup or go to war any minute.

10 hours ago, IFR said:

I really disliked Daemon John Wick'ing his way through the Crab People. For a moment I thought I was watching Rings of Power.

Other than some of the nonsense on the Stepstones, I thought the episode was solid. It's probably the weakest episode because the battle at the Stepstones was so silly.

At first I thought that was somewhat too much as well ... but then I recalled that George has this guy jump dragons while both of them are falling into a huge lake. And while that he happens, he doesn't just jump dragon, he stays on Vhagar, walks over to Aemond's saddle and stabs him through the eye with Dark Sister.

That is John Wick-like material. The show should introduce not only that he can do shit like that, but also that he has the fearlessness and the suicidal tendency to pull something like that off.

The battle scene has some problems, but I don't think Daemon's attitude is one of those.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I like how Alicent also just flat out ignored her father's orders. She's the Queen now and no longer has to listen to Otto.

She only ignores them to a point. She admits that she actually wants Aegon to be the king ... but at this point she prefers it that Viserys come to that conclusion himself or with only subtle manipulation. She also doesn't want to push Aegon in the spotlight if it means she will antagonize Rhaenyra further. They still are friends.

But insofar as the goal is concerned they seem to be on the same page.

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It was weird that they mention that Viserys married Aemma because "the Vale had an army that could rival the North". Why would the North be a reference in that context?

I imagine only because of the size of the army.

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Specially when they didn't spell out that Corlys had resigned as Master of Ships. If they wanted to go for it, it may have had more impact if Corlys had said so before storming out of last episode's Council session.

That wasn't necessary. Corlys left and spent years abroad fighting his private war outside the Seven Kingdoms. Even if the king felt he still was Master of Ships in his mind ... he would still need a replacement guy to oversee the royal fleet in Corlys' absence. We have to wait and see if Corlys rejoins the council upon his return or not.

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Lord Hobert Hightower addresses him this way shouting in front of a crowd, and Viserys doesn't even react to it. It doesn't seem to fit Viserys telling Jason afterwards that considering Aegon the heir is treasonous.

Later Viserys is somewhat drunk and it is quite clear that he caught all the earlier stuff ... he just didn't react to it because he is a nice guy and words are wind and all that. But when you catch him on the wrong foot he does react.

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't know if there'll be enough reasons to have 'regular' flashbacks, but I'd be certainly a great addition to show a flashback when they are reunited at the fall of KL. It could work very well to show how badly have things escalated, and Milly Alcock and Emily Carey certainly deserve it.

Not sure flashbacks can replace proper character development, so while this might be fun I'm not sure what could be accomplished this way.

9 hours ago, briantw said:

I appreciate the way that Viserys keeps trying to do right by his family and it's constantly interpreted by them as petty politicking.  He sends help because Alicent legitimately convinces him that it's the right thing to do, but all Daemon can see is the attempt to upstage him.  Similarly, he's pressuring his daughter to marry in order to solidify her claim, but she sees it as his attempt to ship her off and get her out of the way.

In the Rhaenyra case there is a clear failure of communication on Viserys' part. When talking about it with her and the prospective husband it should have been clear to all parties that Rhaenyra would remain the heir and would not be shipped off to some other castle in Westeros.

But, as I said, it is kind of unrealistic that the lords vying for Rhaenyra's hand would actually expect or want her to be replaced as her since the great part about Rhaenyra being the heir is that they would then be king or prince consort at her side when she rules. Why would anyone not want his wife to give him such a lofty position?

Rhaenyra would only start to be a less popular future queen once her marriage was arranged - then some or many of the lords who originally wanted to marry might feel cheated out of their price, etc. But the idea that people would actually want Rhaenyra to be replaced while there is still a chance that you or your son could actually be the man sitting at her side isn't that likely.

This may have been an episode to take place at a further date, after Rhaenyra's marriage to Laenor. Although they certainly were correct in having an episode where Viserys himself is conflicted about the heir thing some time after the birth of his eldest son. But may have been better served as a more private issue.

In context, I think the show overplays the whole 'men should rule' aspect of the story. Yes, that's tradition and all, but there are very few Greens in the actual book who side with Aegon II for their deep convictions (the only one I recall are Grover Tully who only tried ... and Unwin Peake who eventually ends up murdering his king's only surviving child).

The Lannisters and Baratheons are effectively bought/pressured by Otto and Aemond (and Lord Jason's contribution to the war is effectively a joke considering the actual military potential of the West), and the Hightowers stick to Alicent's children because they are extended family. Many of the Blacks end up siding with Rhaenyra because of sworn vows and loyalty to the wishes of the late Viserys.

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12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

This was the weakest episode of the series so far.

Not a bad thing; it was to be expected.

I honestly thought that they messed up Laeno'rs introduction as well. To be honest, Laena and Laenor should have been  introduced by name in the first episode. If I didn't know the story already, I'd be so confused about the new dragonrider. Laenor is fun but....his re-introduction was trash.

Alicent Hightower, Jason Lannister and Larys Strong owned this episode.

I'm also disappointed to see that Rhaenys was not present in the closing battle.

100% agree with these points.   I don't think non-readers could figure out what was going on or who Laenor was - and why wouldn't Rhaenys have been there?   Reading various reviews online - this is apparent.  Numerous reviewers flat-out have summarized things incorrectly (one thought that 2 dragons sent by Viserys saved the day), and I've seen Vaemond referred to by 3 different names.  

The intro of the Lannisters and Larys was good - Harwin, not so much.  

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