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[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion


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2 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

I’d disagreed with the opinion that the show should’ve taken two seasons to get to the Dance, but I’m beginning to think it could really benefit from taking longer to develop characters and their relationships. Alicent’s changing relationship with Viserys and Rhaenyra has moved too quickly for me so far. Interspersing the development of the Targaryens with some introduction to Cregan Stark, Jeyne Arryn and other players in the Dance would’ve been to the shows credit, I think. 

If you want to see meaningful Laena and Laenor stuff then of course there should have been two seasons for Viserys' reign. Going only with one means that they can, at best, be featured extras.

Cregan Stark can wait - he is a pretty much irrelevant character for the Dance, anyway, sitting on his hands for essentially the entire war. You could cut him completely and not lose anything of real substance. That said - there are ways to increase the Stark presence in the show, most notably by having Jacaerys Velaryon actually marrying Sara Snow and taking her down to Dragonstone to become a lady of Rhaenyra's court (they could even turn out to be the parents of the Daenaera Velaryon Aegon III eventually marries). I do like the general plot point of the Starks being committed to Rhaenyra ... but being more committed to actually prepare for winter. Although I imagine that the show will make it a crucial part Jace's visit to Winterfell that Rhaenyra knows about the prophecy and plans to keep Westeros united for the true enemy and stuff. That might be a crucial factor why the North joins the Black camp.

Jeyne Arryn's absence is kind of odd due to Aemma's Arryn link. There should have been more Vale guys at Viserys' court, especially while Aemma was still alive and Alicent not yet fully established as queen.

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I honestly don't get what's wrong with the Velaryon wigs. And excited dragonrider Laenor is something I didn't know I needed so much.

Other than that, I like how people make a big deal out of the battle scene and the exposition to it was so highly unrealistic. 

Why? Is Dorne resisting Aegon the Conqueror realistic? Is Aemon Targaryen being killed by a peasant sneaking up on him realistic? Is it realistic that the Valyrian Freehold only expanded to such a size it did, with thousands of dragons, in 4000 years?

Daemon will be flying at the end, from one dragon to the other, hitting his own nephew right in the eye with a sword. This is candy compared to that. It fits the character. I didn't even really like it, but you gotta admit, it fits him, and he's an extremely lucky guy anyway.

It's not as if George doesn't do stuff like this in his own material, for plot purposes. It was comicbookish, and I hope they don't go further with that, but come on, this is casual for fantasy. Reality is always much more uglier, 

The visuals are extremely good, I like how Laenor is trying his 'wings', altough a more fleshed out view of the situation would've been better, for non-book readers especially. I personally tought they just made him not a dragonrider yet.

And that's where the big issues come. And this is something I've been saying from the very beginning. 1 season is not enough to set up the stage for the Dance. The fact that we only saw Aemma Arryn interact with Viserys and Rhaenyra only, the fact that the only conversation Vaemond and Laenor will have in the entire show is probably the one we just saw, that we didn't see Corlys and Daemon befriend one another (this is supposed to had been the time for that), and the list will only get longer. 

And it's obvious to me that this is how the show was planned, but it's also clear there is a lot of cut material. 

And despite that I am very well aware that this section of the show is an ungrateful one, very very hard to execute properly, all I can say is the same: 2 seasons would've been better for the pre-Dance era. Much better.

I get that they have to keep the stakes hig, but yea. Add actual court intrigue. I feel like solutions are not seeked and and sought after, just thrown in our face.

I like the show tho, despite the criticism.

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It was inevitable that a lot was going to be cut, even with the canon here being a sliver of what D&D had.

Spoiler

Nonetheless, I expect that like with GoT, they wanted to start the major internal war for Season Two. To keep the "unsullied".

 

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26 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I honestly don't get what's wrong with the Velaryon wigs.

Well, Laenor's wig does look like a mop. The rest are pretty okay by me.

 

26 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Is Dorne resisting Aegon the Conqueror realistic? Is Aemon Targaryen being killed by a peasant sneaking up on him realistic? Is it realistic that the Valyrian Freehold only expanded to such a size it did, with thousands of dragons, in 4000 years?

Yes?

To me the main issue is what the plan is: it expects that Daemon running around like Lancelot at a wedding will lead all the Triarchy's men to come out after him. It's completely and utterly nonsensical. Now, as I said, I accept some narrative corners being cut because they have a very tough job, and the way they did it just let Daemon be as outrageously fearless as can be.

But.

The obvious thing they should have done was have Daemon lead just a handful of picked men to sneak onto Bloodstone, dress up as Triarchy soldiers, and carry in some "loot" deep into the cavern... which then turns out to be chests full of pots of wildfire. Which Daemon then sets off, barely ahead of it, and the conflagration both kills some men and forces the rest out of the cavern. And then the rest can happen as we saw.

(Even better might have been establishing that the Triarchy's siege engines were flinging wildfire at the Velaryon ships, meaning there was a cache of wildfire already there in the caverns and Daemon and co. didn't need to bring it, they just needed to sneak in to it to light it up. But that's maybe a bit too Lymond... or the Bohus Bang)

ETA: Of course, this fearless infiltration of an enemy stronghold has precedents in ASoIaF -- Barristan's solo rescue of Aerys from captivity in Duskendale, Barristan, Jorah, Strong Belwas, Grey Worm, et. al. sneaking into Meereen to free the pit-fighters and open the gates.

 

Edited by Ran
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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you want to see meaningful Laena and Laenor stuff then of course there should have been two seasons for Viserys' reign. Going only with one means that they can, at best, be featured extras.

I think the fact that Laena and Laenor were in the royal box in episode 1, and that Laena was featured quite prominently in episode 2, made me think that we’d be getting a lot more of Laena and Laenor than I’d initially expected. I mean, we still have 3 consecutive episodes where at least one of Rhaenys’s children has appeared, but clearly my expectations overshot. 
 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cregan Stark can wait - he is a pretty much irrelevant character for the Dance, anyway, sitting on his hands for essentially the entire war. You could cut him completely and not lose anything of real substance. That said - there are ways to increase the Stark presence in the show, most notably by having Jacaerys Velaryon actually marrying Sara Snow and taking her down to Dragonstone to become a lady of Rhaenyra's court (they could even turn out to be the parents of the Daenaera Velaryon Aegon III eventually marries). I do like the general plot point of the Starks being committed to Rhaenyra ... but being more committed to actually prepare for winter. Although I imagine that the show will make it a crucial part Jace's visit to Winterfell that Rhaenyra knows about the prophecy and plans to keep Westeros united for the true enemy and stuff. That might be a crucial factor why the North joins the Black camp.

The idea of 2 seasons of set-up isn’t a strong conviction of mine, just something I’m starting to see the advantages of. I wasn’t quite sure whether there would be room in only 2-3 seasons of the Dance itself to expand on the Starks, depending on where the TV show ends and how many of the Dance’s battles are adapted. 
I was always surprised by how many people believe the Jacaerys-Sara story in F&B, it always struck me as one of the false rumours. The maesters don’t even seem sure on whether she existed, which I wouldn’t expect from even a bastard sister to the Lord of Winterfell. 
Having Jacaerys bring Sara back to Dragonstone, much less having them produce Daenaera, would be extraordinary changes to the source material. It’s unnecessary and wouldn’t fit with the pattern of loyalty to the source material we’ve seen thus far. Would Rhaenyra have passed her over to name Joffrey heir? Would none of the Blacks have supported her own claim against Aegons II and III? 
And from the diversity perspective, Daenaera Velaryon gives future shows the opportunity to depict some non-white Targaryen kings and princesses, which is not something I think they’ll want to miss out on. 

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3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Speaking of which, I still hate the new Kingsguard armour with the Starship Troopers helmets. Why didn't they keep the design from GoT? 

I don't mind the idea of it changing with different kings and differing fashions, but certainly they went a bit too far to making their faces too visible. 

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19 hours ago, Ran said:

Yes?

No?

Many things happen in unrealistic way to serve the plot. To some extent, that's okay. More than that, fine.

19 hours ago, Ran said:

To me the main issue is what the plan is: it expects that Daemon running around like Lancelot at a wedding will lead all the Triarchy's men to come out after him. It's completely and utterly nonsensical. Now, as I said, I accept some narrative corners being cut because they have a very tough job, and the way they did it just let Daemon be as outrageously fearless as can be.

As I said, it was too much comicbook superhero style for me too. But if this is the worst we have to face, I'm confortable with that.

19 hours ago, Ran said:

The obvious thing they should have done was have Daemon lead just a handful of picked men to sneak onto Bloodstone, dress up as Triarchy soldiers, and carry in some "loot" deep into the cavern... which then turns out to be chests full of pots of wildfire. Which Daemon then sets off, barely ahead of it, and the conflagration both kills some men and forces the rest out of the cavern. And then the rest can happen as we saw.

(Even better might have been establishing that the Triarchy's siege engines were flinging wildfire at the Velaryon ships, meaning there was a cache of wildfire already there in the caverns and Daemon and co. didn't need to bring it, they just needed to sneak in to it to light it up. But that's maybe a bit too Lymond... or the Bohus Bang)

Agreed, sounds much better than the verison we've got.

But.

There are bigger things to worry about. Regarding S1. The reast is easy to handle compared to that.

Edit: To just mention a few:

1. There's the fact that Rhaenyra is gonna have 3 love interests, 2 husbands (one of which won't even be a love interest to her), she will give birth 6 times, and is gonna completely lose both of her BFFS by EP 8.

2. Aegon, who we just met as a 2 year old boy, is supposed to become a main villain by the end of the season, along with Aemond, who's not even born yet.

3. Daemon will also have 3 love interests by the end of the season, and we don't even know if he's gonna be a faithful romantic or not.

4. Look, Queen Aemma, such an interesting character, aand she's dead. But hey, look, Laena and Laenor Velaryon, both dragonriders, aaaand they're gone too. But, for the last time, look at this lad, Lucerys Velaryon, such a cool guy, such a cool name, such a cool drag...oh, and he's gone too. For good.

I hope you see what I mean.

Edited by Daeron the Daring
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5 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

I think the fact that Laena and Laenor were in the royal box in episode 1, and that Laena was featured quite prominently in episode 2, made me think that we’d be getting a lot more of Laena and Laenor than I’d initially expected. I mean, we still have 3 consecutive episodes where at least one of Rhaenys’s children has appeared, but clearly my expectations overshot.

The problem is that there is going to be a big time jump, apparently, after Rhaenyra's wedding.

5 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

The idea of 2 seasons of set-up isn’t a strong conviction of mine, just something I’m starting to see the advantages of. I wasn’t quite sure whether there would be room in only 2-3 seasons of the Dance itself to expand on the Starks, depending on where the TV show ends and how many of the Dance’s battles are adapted. 

They have to take time for personal stuff. Most battles are side shows, anyway. Who cares how many people died at the Fishfeed when nobody of note actually fought and died there?

And there will have to be changes as to where the royals are and how they interact with each other. Daemon and Rhaenyra cannot be apart for a year, say. Aegon II cannot disappear for most of the war, etc.

5 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

I was always surprised by how many people believe the Jacaerys-Sara story in F&B, it always struck me as one of the false rumours. The maesters don’t even seem sure on whether she existed, which I wouldn’t expect from even a bastard sister to the Lord of Winterfell.

Just think about them not actually knowing how Queen Ceryse died, despite the fact that they later actually executed one of the guys allegedly responsible for her murder. One imagines that there are records in Winterfell talking about Sara Snow - but a Targaryen historian wouldn't have bothered with looking for more detailed information on her. But, of course, like with the Ceryse thing we could see more details on Sara Snow in the next FaB volume if there is much about Cregan Stark's tenure as Lord of Winterfell in that book.

5 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Having Jacaerys bring Sara back to Dragonstone, much less having them produce Daenaera, would be extraordinary changes to the source material. It’s unnecessary and wouldn’t fit with the pattern of loyalty to the source material we’ve seen thus far. Would Rhaenyra have passed her over to name Joffrey heir? Would none of the Blacks have supported her own claim against Aegons II and III?
And from the diversity perspective, Daenaera Velaryon gives future shows the opportunity to depict some non-white Targaryen kings and princesses, which is not something I think they’ll want to miss out on. 

For that we would have to wait and see whether the show keeps the silent five and, most importantly, Vaemond Velaryon's sons Daemion and Daeron. Daeron is Daenaera's father, so if he were cut or not mentioned at all, then Daenaera could easily enough have a different background.

A child of Jace's and Sara's could easily be passed over if Rhaenyra/her people are not happy with their marriage, the child is born on posthumously, possibly even only after Rhaenyra is hounded out of KL (let's say Jace fathers the girl a day before the Battle of the Gullet, it would only be born nine months after that, i.e. very shortly before Rhaenyra's own death.

Not to mention that Rhaenyra could easily enough prefer her own sons to her granddaughters, especially in war time while it is key to have an older heir who could take over for you if you were to die.

5 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No?

Many things happen in unrealistic way to serve the plot. To some extent, that's okay. More than that, fine.

As I said, it was too much comicbook superhero style for me too. But if this is the worst we have to face, I'm confortable with that.

Agreed, sounds much better than the verison we've got.

But.

There are bigger things to worry about. Regarding S1. The reast is easy to handle compared to that.

Don't think we need overly complicated, kind of realistic island fighting. I got the impression that the Crabfeeder was dying anyway ... and also dying to get his hands on Daemon, so him commanding his people go out of those caves at that point seems to be something this decaying creature might do.

The point of luring somebody into a trap means they see a bait they can't refuse.

I actually hope they come up with other suicidal stunts Daemon does during the war - going to Harrenhal  just with his dragon at the beginning of the war could be another such thing. I mean, why would the Strongs not just kill him once he dismounted Caraxes? Because they think the dragon could magically protect him inside the castle structures?

By the way - when Daemon got shot in the opening dragonrider scene it is implied that Caraxes felt the pain, right?

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30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - when Daemon got shot in the opening dragonrider scene it is implied that Caraxes felt the pain, right?

Yes, it is, I liked that. Not sure why he was shot in the exact same place during the battle too.

One other thing I really liked is how they laid the ground of the reasons the Lannisters will support the Greens. It's because Tyland didn't get to marry Rhaenyra.

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't think we need overly complicated, kind of realistic island fighting. I got the impression that the Crabfeeder was dying anyway ... and also dying to get his hands on Daemon, so him commanding his people go out of those caves at that point seems to be something this decaying creature might do.

The point of luring somebody into a trap means they see a bait they can't refuse.

I actually hope they come up with other suicidal stunts Daemon does during the war - going to Harrenhal  just with his dragon at the beginning of the war could be another such thing. I mean, why would the Strongs not just kill him once he dismounted Caraxes? Because they think the dragon could magically protect him inside the castle structures?

I'm gonna be honest with you, I watch the show for character interactions (and the dragons, as well as the memorable moments). I am very critical of what I see on my screan, but HOTD is in a quite unique situation with me. That being said, I am still critical of it, I just don't elborate on it that much. Daemon going on a suicidal mission fits him well enough, Was it unrealistic? Yes, Were the dragon scenes cool? Yes. Was he cool? Yes. Laenor was cool too, which I didn't expect to enjoy this much.

And to be fair, Daemon should be put through stuff like this. He is the luckiest and most badass Targaryen (which I personally don't like that much about him), who, I believe, even survives the battle above the God's Eye (It's a theory I came up with recently, posted it on a Dance thread). It's just basically that both him and Aemond's son were taken by the green man of the Isle of Faces, won't be elaborating more on this.

Edit:Here it is...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/160460-unanswered-questions-in-dance-of-the-dragons/page/2/#comment-8816492

Edited by Daeron the Daring
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I liked it, to me all 3 episodes have been good. I thought the scenes during the hunt were excellent. Paddy Considine is a great, great actor. I loved the Rhaenyra and Daemon parallels and while the battle was "unrealistic" I thought it was well executed, especially it being wordless.

I was excited to finally meet some of the supporting characters like the Lannister twins and Laenor. I really appreciate the fact that the dragons are all different too.

 

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2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yes, it is, I liked that. Not sure why he was shot in the exact same place during the battle too.

One other thing I really liked is how they laid the ground of the reasons the Lannisters will support the Greens. It's because Tyland didn't get to marry Rhaenyra.

Yes, sure, that's also something you can draw from the book. Both Jason and Tyland propose to her, and she rejects them, so that may have not sat that well with them. And the way Jason behaves ... and the way Rhaenyra responded, most certainly laid the groundwork why the twins are going to lean towards the Greens eventually.

One imagines that Otto and Alicent are going to cultivate their relations with Tyland in the episodes to come ... if he is already a regular member of the Small Council.

2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And to be fair, Daemon should be put through stuff like this. He is the luckiest and most badass Targaryen (which I personally don't like that much about him), who, I believe, even survives the battle above the God's Eye (It's a theory I came up with recently, posted it on a Dance thread). It's just basically that both him and Aemond's son were taken by the green man of the Isle of Faces, won't be elaborating more on this.

Yes, it is part of Daemon's character to do stupid and suicidal things, so there is nothing wrong depicting such things.

Oh, the Green Men idea I came up with as soon as TPatQ came out ... especially since they never actually found his corpse. The idea there is that Daemon as a Green Man could be another kind of Bloodraven character - why not go with a known historical figure when the Green Men finally show up in the books rather than invent a new character for that.

Aemond's son should be dealt with one way or another in FaB II. Until proven otherwise, I imagine the guy was killed, possibly in another dragon battle. Although there is a chance that his line actually continued, say, if he lived long enough to have a wife who then gave him a posthumous daughter or something along those lines. We already know that Aegon III will only name a new Lord of Harrenhal in 151 AC, which means Harrenhal may have remained in control of Alys and her son until 150 AC or thereabouts - which means her son may have actually died at the age 19 or so, old enough to have children of his own.

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45 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No?

Many things happen in unrealistic way to serve the plot. To some extent, that's okay. More than that, fine.

As I said, it was too much comicbook superhero style for me too. But if this is the worst we have to face, I'm confortable with that.

Agreed, sounds much better than the verison we've got.

But.

There are bigger things to worry about. Regarding S1. The reast is easy to handle compared to that.

Edit: To just mention a few:

1. There's the fact that Rhaenyra is gonna have 3 love interests, 2 husbands (one of which won't even be a love interest to her), she will give birth 6 times, and is gonna completely lose both of her BFFS by EP 8.

2. Aegon, who we just met as a 2 year old boy, is supposed to become a main villain by the end of the season, along with Aemond, who's not even born yet.

3. Daemon will also have 3 love interests by the end of the season, and we don't even know is he's gonna be a faithful.

4. Look, Queen Aemma, such an interesting character, aand she's dead. But hey, look, Laena and Laenor Velaryon, both dragonriders, aaaand they're gone too. But, for the last time, look at this lad, Lucerys Velaryon, such a cool guy, such a cool name, such a cool drag...oh, and he's gone too. For good.

I hope you see what I mean.

wow , you really made your point with 2 pre-dance season . and .. I agree . as always . however , despite my disappointment with how they will portray many characters , I still think it made sense to make pre dance part one season , marketing wise . they need to get to action before long . that said , I don't know what was stopping them to make more and by a few minutes longer episodes for this season . they were working on this for what? 3 years ? they could make it 4 years for all I care and honestly , nothing seems impossible in entertainment industry nowadays . they could make it work easily enough with 13-14 episodes . 

 

and speaking of Love Interests: not only Harwin/Laenor and Laena are just there to to be baby making machines (officially or literally ) , but also the failed Mysaria speech of last episode was actually where they departed! I still , cannot fathom that! are we not seeing Mysaria until season 2?! :D 

 

ed. one more thing: I still don't know what is show reasoning for why Corlys wanted Daemon's help! he at least gathered men in the books and was the reason they matched Crab people , not somehow the reason they were losing!

Edited by EggBlue
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2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

wow , you really made your point with 2 pre-dance season . and .. I agree . as always . however , despite my disappointment with how they will portray many characters , I still think it made sense to make pre dance part one season , marketing wise . they need to get to action before long . that said , I don't know what was stopping them to make more and by a few minutes longer episodes for this season . they were working on this for what? 3 years ? they could make it 4 years for all I care and honestly , nothing seems impossible in entertainment industry nowadays . they could make it work easily enough with 13-14 episodes . 

 

and speaking of Love Interests: not only Harwin/Laenor and Laena are just there to to be baby making machines (officially or literally ) , but also the failed Mysaria speech of last episode was actually where they departed! I still , cannot fathom that! are we not seeing Mysaria until season 2?! :D 

I was gonna just write down that they also could've decided on more episodes for this season, but I see you mentioning it. 

Not sure about Mysaria tho. I am unable to imagine her fate, because I think the show will go with a Daemon who is faithful to Rhaenyra and all.

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2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I thought Matt Smith played the hell out of scene where he reads the message sent from King's Landing. You can tell that it's the approval and acceptance that he so craves but that he hates being upstaged on both a personal and political/professional level. It was very bittersweet. Matt Smith made it so that Daemon looked like he was on the verge of weeping, smiling and cursing.

Agreed, he's killing it. He's just magnetic on screen and adding more depth to the book version of the character imo.

Speaking of, I like how they're characterizing the Greens. I disagree that they're whitewashing Alicent, I think they're just expanding and improving her character so she's not just The Evil Stepmother, you know? Anyway I've only read the book once so I'm coming to this show only remembering the bigger moments and I'm enjoying it so far. It has definitely exceeded my expectations, that's for sure.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, the Green Men idea I came up with as soon as TPatQ came out ... especially since they never actually found his corpse. The idea there is that Daemon as a Green Man could be another kind of Bloodraven character - why not go with a known historical figure when the Green Men finally show up in the books rather than invent a new character for that.

Aemond's son should be dealt with one way or another in FaB II. Until proven otherwise, I imagine the guy was killed, possibly in another dragon battle. Although there is a chance that his line actually continued, say, if he lived long enough to have a wife who then gave him a posthumous daughter or something along those lines. We already know that Aegon III will only name a new Lord of Harrenhal in 151 AC, which means Harrenhal may have remained in control of Alys and her son until 150 AC or thereabouts - which means her son may have actually died at the age 19 or so, old enough to have children of his own.

Misunderstanding each other there, but it's on me. 

The original question I wanted to answer myself is what'll be the fate of Aemond's son and how come we hear nothing about it, ever again. 

The idea is that he (Aemond's son) was taken by the green men of the island. It's just that it really alings with the idea of Daemon surviving, and it benefits from it as well. The theory is Aemond Jr centric, Daemon is just a fitting element of the puzzle.

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8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Misunderstanding each other there, but it's on me. 

The original question I wanted to answer myself is what'll be the fate of Aemond's son and how come we hear nothing about it, ever again. 

The idea is that he (Aemond's son) was taken by the green men of the island. It's just that it really alings with the idea of Daemon surviving, and it benefits from it as well. The theory is Aemond Jr centric, Daemon is just a fitting element of the puzzle.

Oh, I think that's clearly a hanging plot thread from FaB, one that George first introduced when inventing Alys Rivers and her affair/marriage with Aemond during the writing process of the book. It is a new element, nothing he hinted at in other publications, so the way to reference it again is FaB ... or some weirdo reference in TWoW or ADoS if he actually bothers weaving such thing into this.

But it is clear that Aegon III must eventually retake Harrenhal, but what we know indicates that he didn't rush things in that department. If he had, he would have named a new Lord of Harrenhal in the later 130s or early 140s.

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25 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

 

Speaking of, I like how they're characterizing the Greens. I disagree that they're whitewashing Alicent, I think they're just expanding and improving her character so she's not just The Evil Stepmother, you know?

Yes, and again, people that buy into the wicked conniving seductress trope wholeheartedly should read more history (and GRRM did), because nearly every woman with any agency is described like that by sexist historians of the past (which is basically pretty much all of them). It's either that or the scheming old hag, if she's too old to have children.

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5 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yes, and again, people that buy into the wicked conniving seductress trope wholeheartedly should read more history (and GRRM did), because nearly every woman with any agency is described like that by sexist historians of the past (which is basically pretty much all of them). It's either that or the scheming old hag, if she's too old to have children.

Even if you go with a more evil Alicent - the text is crystal clear that Rhaenyra and she were still very friendly at that time. The court factions only develop five years into the marriage, at the tourney of 111 AC, when the dresses are worn and Aegon, Helaena, and Aemond have been born - which isn't the case in this episode.

I think folks make too much about them being friends since they actually were also friendly in the book. This whole started as a good and friendly relationship and devolved into something hideous. And we will get lots and lots of that later on, one imagines.

The big ugly thing about Alicent in the book we only got when FaB was published in full is the implication that Alicent never actually loved Viserys - hinted at by the fact that she never so much as mentions him in her last days and instead constantly talks about reading to the Old King back in the day. Could also be her trying to reconnect with a golden era long lost ... but Viserys and Alicent also presided over her own golden age during the first couple of years of their marriage. If she had loved the man, she may have also remembered that.

By the way - I actually do enjoy the kind of marriage Alicent and Viserys seem to have. They continue their talks. Alicent is an important advisor for Viserys, despite the fact that it seems he mostly ignores her in public.

Although I must say I also enjoyed how they had the noblewomen and the men be separate in the camps. That's how it would be.

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