Rings of Power: Three Threads for the Elven Lords (book spoilers)

[Rippounet]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

Apropos of nothing, saw this blast from the past floating around: unused DVD commentary for LotR by Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn. 

Pretty good. Really shows how ridiculous it is when people start confusing manichaeistic fantasy with real-life human geopolitics.

[slant]

This guy Chomsky can be a pretentious old man sometimes. He goes on some trip comparing pipe-weed to heroin smugglers in New York coming up with competing brand names and such... it's actually just a cottage industry, and yeah well, sure it's an addictive, smokable substance, does not make it weed as we know it, it can just be tobacco you know. 

How is Rohan an Economic powerhouse lol? Middle Earth is in a cold war? These people are on some ego trip, and clearly delusional, it is not some kind of elevated commentary that can be taken seriously. Was it supposed to be funny? I really do not get it. 

[Rhom]

3 hours ago, slant said:

Omg, I thought meteor man was Gandalf! 

That's part of the misdirection they are going for.  Could be Gandalf... certainly looks like him... but if so, then the dead fireflies and the eye symbolism are a bit over the top.  Could be Sauron... but then you have other issues.  Could be someone/something else.

Halbarad on the raft is another misdirection.  Could be a dude.  Could be Sauron.  

Or maybe we have yet to see Sauron.   

[IFR]

3 hours ago, mormont said:

The problem with criticising the wall-climbing scene is that the metal 'armour' they're wearing at the time is clearly fantasy armour. It doesn't remotely resemble realistic metal armour. There's no reason to suppose, then, that it would cause the same sort of issues. Certainly the armour they're wearing doesn't seem to weigh much. 

I dislike this approach to storytelling. If something is established within the show with rules and limitations, fine, but hand-wavey storytelling is not particularly good storytelling, I think.

Why did that elf survive a 200 foot plummet? Magic clothes, I guess.

How did that human take a bounding leap of 50 feet? Why, magic boots, of course!

Hey! Galadriel just fell into Mount Doom and is swimming around in the lava. How does that make sense? Oh never mind, she's wearing a broach, it probably affords magical protection.

3 hours ago, mormont said:

(It would be difficult but feasible, speaking as someone with experience wearing real metal armour, to climb ice walls in it: and if you really had to do it, it would be easier to do it wearing the armour than carrying it.

Interesting. Well, when you're wrong, you're wrong. I suppose I retract that particular objection. It sounds pretty incredible though, and good on you for managing that.

[slant]

Yes, the eye symbolism is a bit tricky, I think it's a sign of what this meteor guy must fight. The dead fireflies are a hint at the difficulties ahead, sort of like a prophecy? It can be Gandalf as it shows his association with Harfoots/Hobbits, and his control over fire. 

Not convinced its Sauron... but could be. 

[Ran]

In The Silmarillion, Tolkien wrote this about Elves and Men in the First Age:

Quote

In those days [the First Age] Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race.

Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the course of time. But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapons or mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died."

Now, two things are true in the Second Age: Many men are lesser than they once were, save in Númenor, where the vitality and longevity given to the Men of the West exceeded that of the First Age, while the oldest Elves born in or before the First Age have had their inner fire consume away more of the "stuff of Earth" that they are made of, making them increasingly more angelic and powerful and hard to destroy.

So I would say that it is in fact true that in the Second Age, someone like Galadriel is likely to be as strong or perhaps even stronger than most Men, but probably not as strong as a typical Númenórean man.

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

If Meteor Man is really Sauron then the question is if he is faking his current state of mind.

If yes, then the question in turn is why? What does Sauron want from the Hobbits that he decides to put on this undignified act? With the whole Ar-Pharazon buisness it was to get free passage to Numenor and eventually corrupt them. Here I can not imagine what Sauron's reasons would be and why he would put himself into a meteor

If however he genuinely lost his memory, then this leaves the question of how exactly that is supposed to have happened and how he was put into a meteor. Forgetting Tolkien for a moment, in the show there is only mention that he disappeared after Morgoth's downfall, killed Finrod and left that random sign in the frozen wastes.

 

 

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, mormont said:

The problem with criticising the wall-climbing scene is that the metal 'armour' they're wearing at the time is clearly fantasy armour. It doesn't remotely resemble realistic metal armour. There's no reason to suppose, then, that it would cause the same sort of issues. Certainly the armour they're wearing doesn't seem to weigh much. 

(It would be difficult but feasible, speaking as someone with experience wearing real metal armour, to climb ice walls in it: and if you really had to do it, it would be easier to do it wearing the armour than carrying it.

Having tried it on, 16th century plate is surprisingly easy to wear.

[Spockydog]

4 hours ago, mormont said:

speaking as someone with experience wearing real metal armour

Count Binface! I fucking knew it! 

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, slant said:

This guy Chomsky can be a pretentious old man sometimes. He goes on some trip comparing pipe-weed to heroin smugglers in New York coming up with competing brand names and such... it's actually just a cottage industry, and yeah well, sure it's an addictive, smokable substance, does not make it weed as we know it, it can just be tobacco you know. 

How is Rohan an Economic powerhouse lol? Middle Earth is in a cold war? These people are on some ego trip, and clearly delusional, it is not some kind of elevated commentary that can be taken seriously. Was it supposed to be funny? I really do not get it. 

Chomsky is an apologist for almost every evil dictatorship in the world because the USA is far worse, always, regardless of the facts of the situation. Saying Rohan and Gondor (the West) are responsible for the crisis and Mordor (Russia/China/Iraq/Liby/Iran) is utterly innocent despite the utterly overwhelming evidence to the contrary is kind of his thing.

Well, his actual thing is linguistics, but for some reason he seems to think this also makes him an expert on international geopolitics. It does not.

[Ran]

Just to be very clear, that was from McSweeneys and was a parody of Zinn and Chomsky. They did not in fact record a DVD commentary for LotR!

[Veltigar]

1 hour ago, IFR said:

Interesting. Well, when you're wrong, you're wrong. I suppose I retract that particular objection. It sounds pretty incredible though, and good on you for managing that.

The real problem with the ice climbing scene is not the armor (although it certainly complicates matters even further) but the way they go about it. Doesn't she literally jam her knife (and pointed boots) in the ice to climb up and up. There is even a jump in there at some point IIRC. 

Unless you accept her to have super strength that is a problem. 

1 hour ago, slant said:

Yes, the eye symbolism is a bit tricky, I think it's a sign of what this meteor guy must fight. The dead fireflies are a hint at the difficulties ahead, sort of like a prophecy? It can be Gandalf as it shows his association with Harfoots/Hobbits, and his control over fire. 

Not convinced its Sauron... but could be. 

How do you explain the fact that he breaks the leg of that one Harfoot? 

Everything points to this guy being evil. Perhaps he's not Sauron, but he's definitely not one of the good guys I'd say.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, IFR said:

I dislike this approach to storytelling. If something is established within the show with rules and limitations, fine, but hand-wavey storytelling is not particularly good storytelling, I think.

Galadriel (and others) jump around acrobatically with that stuff on. And it literally is established that they can climb with it on, because they do it!

1 hour ago, IFR said:

Interesting. Well, when you're wrong, you're wrong. I suppose I retract that particular objection. It sounds pretty incredible though, and good on you for managing that.

To clarify, I haven't climbed any ice walls... but I have climbed ladders, gone over walls, run, jumped, done pushups and fought for hours, and I know folks who have done actual climbing and (in one case) swimming* in armour. Ice climbing is one of those things I can't do without armour but I know enough to believe that if I could do it, I could do it in armour. It would just be a bit harder, as most things are.

 

*you can swim in armour, it turns out. You just can't float. 

[slant]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

Just to be very clear, that was from McSweeneys and was a parody of Zinn and Chomsky. They did not in fact record a DVD commentary for LotR!

oof lol... it was so plausible though haha... I was like why would Chomsky do this? But it is close to things he has said before! 

4 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

How do you explain the fact that he breaks the leg of that one Harfoot? 

Hmm.. it is a demonstration of his incredible power, which they did three times? Once when the foot was broken, again when he removed all the fire, and a third time when he did that thing with the fireflies. 

He does seem to understand a bit about what the Harfoots want, he does seem sympathetic to them also. 

I am not sure myself, it is just what my gut tells me. I could be very wrong. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

I'm less familiar with Zinn in terms of speech patterns and cadence, but wow did they nail Chomsky. 

[Zorral]

5 hours ago, mormont said:

The problem with criticising the wall-climbing scene is that the metal 'armour' they're wearing at the time is clearly fantasy armour. It doesn't remotely resemble realistic metal armour. There's no reason to suppose, then, that it would cause the same sort of issues. Certainly the armour they're wearing doesn't seem to weigh much. 

(It would be difficult but feasible, speaking as someone with experience wearing real metal armour, to climb ice walls in it: and if you really had to do it, it would be easier to do it wearing the armour than carrying it.

Also elves don't feel hot and cold and exhaustion like others, according to LOTR, as with Legolas during the Caradhras ordeal, and the running across the Rohirrim plain after the captured Merry and Pippin.  Which really goes to show how hard Galadriel pushed them, that elves in her company were falling out from exposure and exhaustion.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, IFR said:

Interesting. Well, when you're wrong, you're wrong. I suppose I retract that particular objection. It sounds pretty incredible though, and good on you for managing that.

Not 100% the same thing, but there are medieval treatises from when knights were wearing full plate armor where it's stated that a knight in full harness is supposed to run I'm not sure for how long (and sprint, not jog) and be able to leap on the back of a horse unaided. 

[Leofric]

2 hours ago, slant said:

This guy Chomsky can be a pretentious old man sometimes. He goes on some trip comparing pipe-weed to heroin smugglers in New York coming up with competing brand names and such... it's actually just a cottage industry, and yeah well, sure it's an addictive, smokable substance, does not make it weed as we know it, it can just be tobacco you know. 

How is Rohan an Economic powerhouse lol? Middle Earth is in a cold war? These people are on some ego trip, and clearly delusional, it is not some kind of elevated commentary that can be taken seriously. Was it supposed to be funny? I really do not get it. 

As Ran mentioned this was a parody, not real commentary, but if you want to follow the logic presented, then Rohan's claim to economic power is that they controlled the main supply of horses to Middle Earth, the primary means of transporting people and goods.  Plus it is stated that they refused to sell horses to the agents of Mordor, forcing Mordor to steal mounts from Rohan for their Black Riders.

[slant]

^Yes, I think that was a demonstration of Poe's Law lol. 

So, sure, yes, no wonder it kind-of makes sense. 

I was laughing, just was not sure if I should be laughing with it or at it. One thing I found hilarious was that they think all Hobbits are criminals! I can live with that lol. 

[Rippounet]

55 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Chomsky is an apologist for almost every evil dictatorship in the world because the USA is far worse, always, regardless of the facts of the situation.

That is either a remarkably poor understanding of everything he has ever said or written or a very bad attempt at attacking an intellectual without using actual arguments.

55 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 Saying Rohan and Gondor (the West) are responsible for the crisis and Mordor (Russia/China/Iraq/Liby/Iran) is utterly innocent despite the utterly overwhelming evidence to the contrary is kind of his thing.

It's saying that if Rohan and Gondor are to base military enterprises (i.e. kill a lot of people) on moral principles or ideas, then they need to be held to a -much- higher standard than the forces they oppose, lest they end up doing more harm than good, or even doing at least as much harm as the forces they oppose.

History and basic logic show us well the dangers of not adhering to such a basic principle. But every time there is a conflict, there are some who think it is acceptable to reduce the "enemy" to orks, because "moral clarity" is apparently something to be proud of.

To put it simply: if you start calling an entire people "orks," then you're in the wrong, regardless of the situation. Any "moral clarity" not based on the defense of human life isn't actually moral, but a means to an end.