Three Breeds of Dragon

[The Dragon Demands]

Thus POTENTIAL types of dragons we'd realistically see, working backwards from Function:

• Strength Combat (Destriers) = T-Rex Shaped heads (confirmed) (Strength, with enough speed to fight)
  • Pure Strength (Drays) = we'd only see these in Valyria construction projects
• Speed & Endurance (Dornish Sand Steeds) = Horse-Shaped heads ("bred for speed")
  • Pure Endurance (Palfrey) = ??? (I always thought Dreamfyre was one of these)
  • Pure Speed (Race Horses) = we'd only see these in Valyria
• Trackers (Hunting Dogs) = ...the Wolf-Shaped skull head dragons? Wide-set heads for better Sensory scanning, with decent Endurance, better than Destrier-dragons.

But maybe they don't draw a distinction between "Pure Endurance" (like a Palfrey) with "Speed & Endurance" (like a Sand Steed). 

The functional labels I'd use for these 3 categories are "War Dragons", "Travel Dragons", and "Tracker Dragons". 

[Lord Varys]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:27 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

The Season 1 finale implied that the three "hatchling" dragons simply haven't been born yet in the TV continuity: rather than have Aegon III's Stormcloud hatch off-screen prior to the finale, it seems they want a bit of an arc, to show the full life cycle; so they stressed that Daemon is collecting eggs. Added a line where he says "and I have a score of eggs warming in the incubators" but no mention of hatchlings.

It strikes me as obvious that they must indeed do something like that to introduce Stormcloud. He needs to be in the show unless they want to cut or botch the brillant last and only flight of the future Broken King. Which I cannot possibly think they would want to do.

One would imagine that Daemon will give his two sons a dragon egg each early next season when Aegon the Younger and Viserys are properly (re-)introduced and then we'll see Aegon's egg hatching quickly while Viserys' egg doesn't.

Regarding Shrykos and Morghul - they could easily enough cut both of them, especially Shrykos, since chances are not that great that Jaehaerys is going to live particularly long into season 2. Now, if they want to keep Shrykos they could easily enough establish in dialogue that Jaehaerys got a cradle egg which hatched - or they could even show the twins playing with their young dragons in the Dragonpit or the Red Keep before Blood & Cheese.

They could also move things around somewhat and make Shrykos a dragon that hatched from an egg given to Prince Maelor. It is not necessary for Rickard Thorne and little Maelor to have a dragon egg with them when they are caught at Bitterbridge. The story will work even without such an egg.

If they were to cut Shrykos and/or Morghul they could replace them with the Grey Ghost at the Dragonpit - if they go through with the idea and have Rhaena claim that wild dragon. Then Rhaena and Rhaenyra would part ways when Rhaenyra and Aegon land at Dragonstone whilst Rhaena would continue on to the Vale where she is going to hatch Morning from a dragon egg Rhaenyra handed to her (say, the last egg produced by Syrax of something like that). Rhaenyra and Aegon would then return to Dragonstone because Rhaenyra planned to mount the Cannibal or something along those lines.

[The Dragon Demands]

(shrug) I thought they'd assuredly cut Grey Ghost, only to then confirm that there are "three wild dragons". 

We'll see what happens.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

(shrug) I thought they'd assuredly cut Grey Ghost, only to then confirm that there are "three wild dragons".

If they have him - as it seems they do - then most likely to have him as Rhaena's first dragon. Due to the girls being older, Rhaena's lack of a dragon being a major plot point in the first season, and the camera lingering on Rhaena when Daemon talked about riderless dragons in the season finale we can, I think, be pretty sure that they will go with Rhaena as a dragonrider during the Dance ... and not just with her hatching Morning when the fighting is over.

Now, they could certainly mess with the riders of the other riderless dragons - combine Hugh and Ulf into one character, say. But if they were not doing that then giving Rhaena the Grey Ghost feels like the natural thing to do. Because the Grey Ghost-Sunfyre battle is arguably the most pointless dragon death in the book ... and it is a plot point the show could easily go without.

There could easily enough be other mysterious dragon sightings on the far side of the Dragonmount, etc.

But you are right there, of course - the Grey Ghost was also the dragon I expected them to cut. I was surprised when Daemon talked about three wild dragons and we heard that they already design sketches for all of them.

Rhaena with the Grey Ghost could give us more dragons present at particular battles - the Fishfeed or the Butcher's Ball, say. And we could have a romance subplot involving Rhaena and Addam Velaryon since she now short a betrothed.

[Annara Snow]

All those theories of massive D&D-like changes based just on the fact that they cut to Rhaena? Even though the most obvious reason is simply because she still hasn't got a dragon.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

All those theories of massive D&D-like changes based just on the fact that they cut to Rhaena? Even though the most obvious reason is simply because she still hasn't got a dragon.

Because of that cut, because they aged her up, and because they made a major plot point out of the fact that she doesn't have a dragon. That's why her father ignores her and it is also why the girls and their cousins quarrel with Aemond.

The idea that she will just sit on her hands hoping some silly eggs would hatch when six riderless dragons are right there on Dragonstone makes little sense.

They could, of course, also have Rhaena try and fail mounting all those riderless dragons - or only some until she stops trying, perhaps because of a severe injury. But that wouldn't all that interesting a plot point.

Also, of course, one expects that Rhaena is not just shipped off to the Vale never to be seen again until the very end of the Dance. (Even it the book it makes pretty much no sense that she goes there.) They already increased the roles of Daemon's daughters in season 1, so why on earth would they just drop the character? The same also goes for Baela and Moondancer. They are also not likely to sit on Dragonstone throughout the entire war doing effectively nothing.

But the biggest issue there is the Grey Ghost. Why would they include him? He has no impact on the plot at all, and creating dragons is pretty expensive. In fact, they could also cut the Cannibal who also doesn't do anything of note. That they apparently won't likely indicates he will have some impact on the plot, too.

[Annara Snow]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because of that cut, because they aged her up, and because they made a major plot point out of the fact that she doesn't have a dragon. That's why her father ignores her and it is also why the girls and their cousins quarrel with Aemond.

 

And you just answered your own question what plot purpose her wanting to have a dragon had.

She's supposed to be about 14-15 in the show, that's not exactly a big age-up.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

And you just answered your own question what plot purpose her wanting to have a dragon had.

She's supposed to be about 14-15 in the show, that's not exactly a big age-up.

She doesn't look like that. But then - her turning 13 in 129 AC in the book doesn't mean she was too young to mount one of the riderless dragons. Not if her own mother may have claimed Vhagar before she turned twelve. Not with Aemond becoming a dragonrider at 10, Rhaenys at 13, and Rhaenyra at seven. Joffrey is also a rider in 129 AC already, and he is only turns twelve in that year.

But you don't have to buy into that idea, of course. Just don't be surprised if it happens like I think it will.

[Annara Snow]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She doesn't look like that. But then - her turning 13 in 129 AC in the book doesn't mean she was too young to mount one of the riderless dragons. Not if her own mother may have claimed Vhagar before she turned twelve. Not with Aemond becoming a dragonrider at 10, Rhaenys at 13, and Rhaenyra at seven. Joffrey is also a rider in 129 AC already, and he is only turns twelve in that year.

But you don't have to buy into that idea, of course. Just don't be surprised if it happens like I think it will.

She doesn't look like that because Phoebe Campbell is 24. Bethany Antonia is 25. Ewan Mitchell also doesn't look like a teenager but that doesn't mean Aemond is 25.

Only Rhaenyra's kids are played by actual teens, and they also ride dragons.

You also just said yourself they didn't have to age her up to have her ride a dragon. 

[Red_star99]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the biggest issue there is the Grey Ghost. Why would they include him? He has no impact on the plot at all, and creating dragons is pretty expensive. In fact, they could also cut the Cannibal who also doesn't do anything of note. That they apparently won't likely indicates he will have some impact on the plot, too.

addam could ride greyghost instead of seasmoke

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Red_star99 said:

addam could ride greyghost instead of seasmoke

That could work as well, but why shouldn't Addam ride Seasmoke?

Thinking about Rhaena as a rider of the Grey Ghost - the dragon could still die more or less the same way as in the book, say, if Rhaena and the Grey Ghost are part of the Mooton party trying to slay Sunfyre at Rook's Rest or on Crackclaw Point. They could attack Sunfyre and the dragon could kill the Grey Ghost while Rhaena survives.

[Red_star99]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That could work as well, but why shouldn't Addam ride Seasmoke?

 

laenor is still arrive

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Red_star99 said:

laenor is still arrive

Oh, yes. He can either come back or he can die offscreen and we can learn about that (through a returning Qarl, say) or Rhaenyra will conclude he must be dead since Addam claimed his dragon.

I'd prefer a scenario where Qarl returns telling them that Laenor wanted to come back to help them once he heard about the coup and Luke's death but died during the journey. He could then, perhaps, join Rhaenyra's Queensguard.

I'm pretty sure the talks about Laenor trying to make heterosexual relationships work sets him up as the father or Addam and Alyn of Hull. The show is not very likely to go with Corlys as their father considering his close relationship with Rhaenys.

[Mosi Mynn]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, yes. He can either come back or he can die offscreen and we can learn about that (through a returning Qarl, say) or Rhaenyra will conclude he must be dead since Addam claimed his dragon.

I'd prefer a scenario where Qarl returns telling them that Laenor wanted to come back to help them once he heard about the coup and Luke's death but died during the journey. He could then, perhaps, join Rhaenyra's Queensguard.

I'm pretty sure the talks about Laenor trying to make heterosexual relationships work sets him up as the father or Addam and Alyn of Hull. The show is not very likely to go with Corlys as their father considering his close relationship with Rhaenys.

I'm very curious as to what they do with Laenor and Seasmoke.

They must have let Laenor live for a reason.

Daemon is definitely going to want Seasmoke for the Blacks, but I don't see how Seasmoke joins the fight on anyone's side while Laenor is still alive.  So you must be right: Laenor will either be dead quite quickly, or will return

Spoiler

maybe to help Stormcloud rescue Aegon III.

  They could use Seasmoke rejecting a rider while Laenor still lives

Spoiler

as foreshadowing for Joffrey trying to ride Syrax.

 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I'm very curious as to what they do with Laenor and Seasmoke.

They must have let Laenor live for a reason.

It strikes me as if the only reason there was that they didn't want to murder another gay man - or two, considering that Qarl Correy wouldn't have survived Laenor very long had he murdered him.

George deliberately has Addam of Hull take over Laenor's dragon. The story replaces him, so having him survive only complicates things.

4 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Daemon is definitely going to want Seasmoke for the Blacks, but I don't see how Seasmoke joins the fight on anyone's side while Laenor is still alive.  So you must be right: Laenor will either be dead quite quickly, or will return

  Reveal hidden contents

maybe to help Stormcloud rescue Aegon III.

What Laenor would do if he returned to Westeros is hard to say, but I imagine if he yet lives he will return to help Rhaenyra and his sons in the wake of the news of Luke's murder - or, if he returned only later, after the death of his mother.

As the rider of Seasmoke he could do some of the things - or more - than Addam did.

While somebody could try to mount Seasmoke while Laenor is yet alive ... Daemon and Rhaenyra know that Laenor wasn't killed at High Tide, so they would likely have Rhaena mount one of the riderless dragons on Dragonstone - Vermithor, Silverwing or one of the wild dragons. They would tell her to stay away from Seasmoke - who is on Driftmark, anyway, and might thus actually be approached by Addam of Hull without checking back with Rhaenyra or Jace.

4 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

They could use Seasmoke rejecting a rider while Laenor still lives

  Reveal hidden contents

as foreshadowing for Joffrey trying to ride Syrax.

If they have Laenor as yet alive this could happen ... although I think it wouldn't be a great plot device since Joffrey Velaryon would likely hear about this and thus look even more stupid when he later mounts Syrax.

In that context I think they will really go with revealing or indicating that Laenor died offscreen - at that would go best if Qarl comes back alone. Then they would also have one gay character back on screen. If Laenor were to return it would actually fuck up too much development with Addam and Alyn. Hell, Qarl could help Jace and Rhaenyra to find Marilda of Hull and convince her boys to try to mount a dragon. Laenor could have told Qarl that he fathered two bastards while he was trying to find joy in the arms of women.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It strikes me as if the only reason there was that they didn't want to murder another gay man - or two, considering that Qarl Correy wouldn't have survived Laenor very long had he murdered him.

It could also be that Daemon/Rhaenyra are supposed to be a couple that viewers root for, and while Daemon can "get away" with killing his wife, Rhaenyra can't get away with killing her husband if she is to remain likeable. 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It could also be that Daemon/Rhaenyra is supposed to be a couple that viewers root for, and while Daemon can "get away" with killing his wife, Rhaenyra can't get away with killing her husband if she is to remain likeable. 

If they had gone with Mushroom's version in the book then Rhaenyra would not have been involved in Laenor's death. Daemon would have acted behind her back as well as Laenor's and the Velaryons. He would have fooled them all.

Of course, they could have added Rhaenyra knowing about this or finding out about it after the fact - but they would not have to do this.

But it could just as well have just been Qarl. Or they could have changed it to an accidental death. Or a fake death disguised as an accident.

The way they did it is clearly silly and there is no real narrative reason for it. It feels like they didn't want to have another (brutal) murder of a gay man after Joffrey - which they decided to make a silly and over-the-top murder rather than a tourney death.

I mean, to make Criston Cole less of an evil nutcase they could have kept the melée setting with Criston loathing Joffrey and the entire Laenor-Rhaenyra shitshow, lashing out at both Joffrey and Harwin ... but not actually wanting to kill either of them. Joffrey's death could have been more like that of Baelor Breakspear, say. He could have even shown remorse afterwards, expressing regret that he fucked up the royal wedding, etc.

[Red_star99]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In that context I think they will really go with revealing or indicating that Laenor died offscreen - at that would go best if Qarl comes back alone. Then they would also have one gay character back on screen. If Laenor were to return it would actually fuck up too much development with Addam and Alyn. Hell, Qarl could help Jace and Rhaenyra to find Marilda of Hull and convince her boys to try to mount a dragon. Laenor could have told Qarl that he fathered two bastards while he was trying to find joy in the arms of women.

i think laenor gonna save viserys and take care of him in exile it much better than bringing him back to kill him or teleporting laenor or killing him off screen while addam ride grey ghost they could have alyn try with  seasmoke and fail 

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, Red_star99 said:

i think laenor gonna save viserys and take care of him in exile it much better than bringing him back to kill him or teleporting laenor or killing him off screen while addam ride grey ghost they could have alyn try with  seasmoke and fail 

I don't think they should mess around with Viserys' story in exile. If they adapt it at all. I'm not sure it would make much sense to follow Viserys while he hangs out with some Lyseni and eventually the Rogares, etc. And Laenor should be especially unwelcome in Lys or the Triarchy in general considering he personally warred against them in the show.

[The Dragon Demands]

I'm often concerned that they'll condense Rhaena with someone else, to cut out Nettles or something. I wouldn't object to her new egg Morning hatching early in Season 2, BEFORE she goes to the Vale with this cat-sized dragon, I mean a big condensation.

****A thought which occurred to me is that Season 1 was written under the fear that it wouldn't be a hit, that they wouldn't get all the seasons they wanted. Not unlike early Game of Thrones. And LIKE early Game of Thrones, they might've...HALF set up optional paths to truncate certain storylines, but they didn't want to.

You know, like how they carefully worded "Stannis has no sons", to self-consciously leave open the door to say he has a daughter. 

So while part of me suspects they half set up the option to combine Rhaena with Nettles (camera lingers on her when describing the wild ones)....maybe that was just a "worst case scenario" in case Season 1 wasn't a hit. I mean, they also avoided definitively saying how many children Alicent has in total, to leave open the door for Daeron.

Plans change, after all.