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Which knight in Westeros history incarnated the best the ideals of chivalry ?


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5 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

How many of those same peasants would he have ended up roasting when their lords opposed him and ordered them to war? 

It depends on whether they desert rather than face dragons. I wasn't trying to say he was a good guy by the end, just that because he was motivated by trying to improve things from the smallfolk it made him more sympathetic than Maegor. But yes, the whole thing was getting very ugly by the end of it all. Baby Rhaegar probably needed to be sacrificed for the 'plan' to work.

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16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It depends on whether they desert rather than face dragons. I wasn't trying to say he was a good guy by the end, just that because he was motivated by trying to improve things from the smallfolk it made him more sympathetic than Maegor. But yes, the whole thing was getting very ugly by the end of it all. Baby Rhaegar probably needed to be sacrificed for the 'plan' to work.

Maegor may have been an extreme example. I don't think it would have been easy to stop burning rebel lords if he started and I used Maegor instead of going on about the slippery slope and all of that. The road to hell paved with good intentions seems to really fit Egg for me.

I think baby R would have been a necessary ingredient, either by himself or as part of the larger group.  I suspect in the end Dunk will kill Egg to save R because if it's going to be a tragedy our author Mr Martin will make it REAL tragic and I don't think it gets more tragic than Dunk killing Egg and dying regretting his life's work. Maybe Martin will retire before he gets to that one though.

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On 9/7/2022 at 10:52 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros have given birth and seen grow, live and die countless men who took the oath of chivalry and became knights.

Over its very long history, and in all of its kingdoms, Westeros has seen all kind of knights: people who were idealistic, more cynical individuals, men interested above all by the fame and prestige given by their rank, others by money, nobles, people coming from the bottom of society, individuals with outstanding skills with the sword and/or the spear, weaklings, cheaters, outright monsters such as Gregor Clegane or Ser Armory Loch, etc...

But who amongst these many many knights really incarnated the values of honor, justice, strength and loyalty all at the same time that the stories, tales and the code of chivalry describe ? Who is the best knight that Westeros has ever known, who lived by these ideals and never betrayed them under any circumstance ?

Ser Willem Darry. He saved the lives of Princess Daenerys and Prince Viserys.  The vile allies of Robert were closing in on Dragonstone when Ser Willem took them to safety.  

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On 9/8/2022 at 7:31 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Stannis Baratheon

I'm not sure about this. I can't see Stannis as very chivalrous at all. He is impolite for a start, being very blunt at best and outright rude at worst, he disdains tourneys where true knights would want to prove their mettle, he endorses unchivalrous methods of attacking such as assassination (of his own brother) and ambushes, he was willing to burn his nephew alive, he left Robert etc.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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On 9/9/2022 at 7:16 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure about this. I can't see Stannis as very chivalrous at all. He is impolite for a start, being very blunt at best and outright rude at worst, he disdains tourneys where true knights would want to prove their mettle, he endorses unchivalrous methods of attacking such as assassination (of his own brother) and ambushes, he was willing to burn his nephew alive, he left Robert etc.

And how is Arthur Dayne chivalrous compared to Stannis? I can't see much chivalry in abducting the highborn maiden daughter of an ancient house. Add to that the fact that she was bethrothed to another lord as well. Now after considering these, add again the fact that Arthur Dayne wasn't just any household knight but a knight of the kingsguard, sworn to obey his king. Did Aerys the second of his name order him to kidnap this lady and take her to a ruined tower -an unfit lodging for a lady of Lyanna's status- that's somewhere in the Red mountains? I highly doubt it.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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15 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Arthur Dayne wasn't just any household knight but a knight of the kingsguard, sworn to obey his king. Did Aerys the second of his name order him to kidnap this lady and take her to a ruined tower -an unfit lodging for a lady of Lyanna's status- that's somewhere in the Red mountains? I highly doubt it.

Aerys was beating and raping his wife. And raving mad BTW. He had no care for Lyanna. No one was gaining honor by serving Aerys.

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15 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And how is Arthur Dayne chivalrous compared to Stannis? I can't see much chivalry in abducting the highborn maiden daughter of an ancient house. Add to that the fact that she was bethrothed to another lord as well. Now after considering these, add again the fact that Arthur Dayne wasn't just any household knight but a knight of the kingsguard, sworn to obey his king. Did Aerys the second of his name order him to kidnap this lady and take her to a ruined tower -an unfit lodging for a lady of Lyanna's status- that's somewhere in the Red mountains? I highly doubt it.

Erm, that kind of looks like whataboutism.

And if you wonder why I care, well, I happen to be curious. Were you serious about Stannis, and if you were... why choose him? Is it his willingness to go so far for allegedly good cause? Or the fact that he turned up to help the NW? Because he finds himself raising a common-born to a Hand? Perhaps something else?

As for my own reply, Baelor Breakspear looked mostly alright.

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And how is Arthur Dayne chivalrous compared to Stannis? I can't see much chivalry in abducting the highborn maiden daughter of an ancient house. Add to that the fact that she was bethrothed to another lord as well. Now after considering these, add again the fact that Arthur Dayne wasn't just any household knight but a knight of the kingsguard, sworn to obey his king. Did Aerys the second of his name order him to kidnap this lady and take her to a ruined tower -an unfit lodging for a lady of Lyanna's status- that's somewhere in the Red mountains? I highly doubt it.

I never said that I thought Arthur Dayne was chivalrous, just that I didn't think Stannis could be considered chivalrous.

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14 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I never said that I thought Arthur Dayne was chivalrous, just that I didn't think Stannis could be considered chivalrous.

And I never claimed that you did. But when thinking of chivalry, many would think Arthur Dayne, because what? We were told so from the perspective of in universe characters that we know for a fact to be unreliable narrators?  Even despite the fact that we as the readers know many things that would be a stain on any knights honor.

 

17 hours ago, Ivan Tsarevich said:

Erm, that kind of looks like whataboutism.

Indeed it is. And was done on purpose for a reason.

 

17 hours ago, Ivan Tsarevich said:

And if you wonder why I care, well, I happen to be curious. Were you serious about Stannis, and if you were... why choose him?

I wasn't serious on Stannis being the best, didn't really consider who would be the best(Ned perhaps? The Stark one if he were a knight but soon also the Dayne one) but was serious on him being a "good knight". For a more elaborate answer, please consider what is considered to be a worthy knight and ask yourself if Stannis fulfills these conditions or whether if someone you, fandom or characters in the universe consider to be a worthy knight really is one.

Below is taken from the wiki as I don't have time to search the books for every instance of mention on what a knight is supposed to be. 

"Knights are supposed to be honorable and follow the chivalric codes.They are expected to be brave and just, and to defend the innocent,the weak, and women. Knights are expected to train and lead a group of men-at-arms."

Stannis has, recently, fallen short on honorable with the shadow assasinations and planning on child sacrifices and all but is still a brave, just man(a truly just man, as Varys would tell you), defends the innocent, the weak and women. Before the start of the series, can't think of any dishonorable behaviour on his part. 

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I wasn't serious on Stannis being the best, didn't really consider who would be the best(Ned perhaps? The Stark one if he were a knight but soon also the Dayne one) but was serious on him being a "good knight". For a more elaborate answer, please consider what is considered to be a worthy knight and ask yourself if Stannis fulfills these conditions or whether if someone you, fandom or characters in the universe consider to be a worthy knight really is one.

Ah, but I have given some thought to the subject, and actually have sympathy towards the position you appear to argue for. I was being curious, not incredulous or anything of the sort.

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Stannis has, recently, fallen short on honorable with the shadow assasinations and planning on child sacrifices and all but is still a brave, just man(a truly just man, as Varys would tell you), defends the innocent, the weak and women. Before the start of the series, can't think of any dishonorable behaviour on his part.

And my curiosity is satisfied enough. Thanks for replying.

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And I never claimed that you did. But when thinking of chivalry, many would think Arthur Dayne, because what? We were told so from the perspective of in universe characters that we know for a fact to be unreliable narrators?  Even despite the fact that we as the readers know many things that would be a stain on any knights honor.

I thought you did because you responded to my point on Stannis not being chivalrous with 'And how is Arthur Dayne chivalrous compared to Stannis?' when I never mentioned him in the first place. I agree that Aerys' Kingsguard is lacking in chivalry. They turn their backs on a lot of things the King does, using their oath as an excuse to avoid confrontation and actually having to make tough decisions like Jaime did. They never faced the choice he had to make so can they really judge him? I bet if he followed Aerys' command and they found out about it they'd go on about how he failed to protect innocents. Speaking of which they all failed in that oath as they allowed the awful treatment of poor Rhaella, an innocent. So they are hypocrites.

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On 9/11/2022 at 7:28 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

And how is Arthur Dayne chivalrous compared to Stannis? I can't see much chivalry in abducting the highborn maiden daughter of an ancient house. Add to that the fact that she was bethrothed to another lord as well. Now after considering these, add again the fact that Arthur Dayne wasn't just any household knight but a knight of the kingsguard, sworn to obey his king. Did Aerys the second of his name order him to kidnap this lady and take her to a ruined tower -an unfit lodging for a lady of Lyanna's status- that's somewhere in the Red mountains? I highly doubt it.

He wasn't. 

Both are frauds. Which is why Baelor Breakspear and Dunk remain undefeated.

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On 9/12/2022 at 5:38 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I thought you did because you responded to my point on Stannis not being chivalrous with 'And how is Arthur Dayne chivalrous compared to Stannis?' when I never mentioned him in the first place. I agree that Aerys' Kingsguard is lacking in chivalry. They turn their backs on a lot of things the King does, using their oath as an excuse to avoid confrontation and actually having to make tough decisions like Jaime did. They never faced the choice he had to make so can they really judge him? I bet if he followed Aerys' command and they found out about it they'd go on about how he failed to protect innocents. Speaking of which they all failed in that oath as they allowed the awful treatment of poor Rhaella, an innocent. So they are hypocrites.

These sort of stuff make them bad/unworthy knights but the point of being a member of the kingsguard is not to be a worthy knight. When you are a knight OF THE KINGSGUARD, you are OF THE KINGSGUARD first and knight second. There are thousands upon thousands of knights on the land that can fulfill the role of a worthy knight but only seven knights for the kingsguard, so oaths to the king comes before oaths as a knight if they contradict. If you are uncomfortable with not being a worthy knight, you shouldn't join the KG in the first place.

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